Mass Shooting Season 2014 still going strong as four+ are wounded at Seattle Pacific University
474 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;45013473]Ok, why not do that and enact gun legislation as well?[/QUOTE]
You try to somehow budget this while lowering the military budget and saying, "we are doing this for the good of the people!" it's like political suicide man.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45013486]Guns aren't the problem.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;45013367]Guns are [B]part of the problem.[/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;45013473]Ok, why not do that and enact gun legislation as well?[/QUOTE]
because guns aren't the cause of higher violent crime rates. refer to the two articles that i posted earlier in the thread.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;45013367]Guns are part of the problem.[/QUOTE]
are they?
I think the problem is the media making bank off spree shootings but what do I know
[url]http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/blog/Kleck_Patterson.pdf[/url]
[quote]
What effects do gun control restrictions and gun prevalence have on rates of violence and crime? Data were gathered for all 170 U.S. cities with a 1980 population of at least 100,000. The cities were coded for the presence of 19 major categories of firearms restriction, including both state- and city-level restrictions. Multiple indirect indicators of gun prevalence levels were measured and models of city violence rates were estimated using two-stage least-squares methods. The models covered all major categories of intentional violence and crime which frequently involve guns: homicide, suicide, fatal gun accidents, robbery, and aggravated assaults, as well as rape. Findings indicate that ( 1 ) gun prevalence levels generally have no net positive effect on total violence rates, (2) homicide, gun assault, and rape rates increase gun prevalence, (3) gun control restrictions have no net effect on gun prevalence levels, and (4) most gun control restrictions generally have no net effect on violence rates. There were, however, some possible exceptions to this last conclusion—of 108 assessments of effects of different gun laws on different types of violence, 7 indicated good support, and another 11 partial support, for the hypothesis of gun control efficacy.
[/quote]
hmm not really painting the picture of "gun control will save us all"
[url]http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95379[/url]
according the CDC the most peaceful the US has been in roughly 30 years, hardly an epidemic of mass murderers as the media makes it out to be
[img]http://gyazo.com/52db5151269140c3e0ac57efb0706d94[/img]
numbers are from BJS. So guns are apparently the central problem, yet the vast majority are never used in violent crime. 0.185% of firearms in the US are used in violent crime.
[img]http://gyazo.com/418601b6947b18d3c7229fd0fafffd2c[/img]
CDC. So if we posit that more guns = more firearm homicide, we should see a trend with firearm homicide rapidly increasing, especially given that recent years has seen some record numbers for firearm purchases. Except.. that doesn't seem to be the case.
All in all, we can't turn a blind eye to the role the media plays in sensationalism. While problems exist, the US, and most of the western world in general, is more peaceful now than it has ever been. The truth is mass shootings are a statistical anomaly. One could easily be mislead into thinking we're in a time of mass murder because of the frequency and intensity of reportage, but its just the case the media is also larger than ever, and things get reported with more frequency and more widespread coverage. There were probably several notable mass shootings during your parent's young lives, and dollars to donuts you they couldn't tell you about them because they didn't hear about them.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45013266]To be fair it's pretty hard to get things done when the only two parties are too busy screaming that the other party is evil to get any shit done.[/QUOTE]
that's literally every country's politics ever.
[QUOTE=joes33431;45013504]because guns aren't the cause of higher violent crime rates. refer to the two articles that i posted earlier in the thread.[/QUOTE]
And how sure are you that guns have nothing to do with violent activities involving guns?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;45013535]And how sure are you that guns have nothing to do with violent activities involving guns?[/QUOTE]
because it's the people operating the gun, i could sit there and put a shotgun in a god damn wheelchair and take it for a stroll and guess what? not once would it go off unless i grab it and pull the trigger.
[QUOTE=dilzinyomouth;45013201]Hi friend
I live in Australia
The problem with using Australia as an example of muh civilian safety!!! (and people keep doing this, without actually knowing what they are talking about) is outside of biased infographics that conveniently leave out the prior years to current gun legislation, the reality is Australia has never had notable firearm homicide, even when every farmer and his dog owned a battle rifle.
There was a downward trend in firearm homicide and violent crime in general from about the 80s onwards, and it continued as such well past gun control. Effectively, gun control was something of a non-factor.
Australia doesn't have many mass murders in general because we don't have the same density of population (using per capita is dishonest when proximity is a very real factor in violent crime) and because we have a much much better quality of life in general, not to mention mental health care. That makes a significant difference, and no US politician wants to talk about that because making monkey amendments on current gun policy is easy to make it look like you're doing something, addressing deeply rooted social problems is much harder.
So please, stop using Australia as an example, and p.s we still have firearms. New Zealand has very relaxed gun policy compared to ours, and yet they have even less firearm homicide. Its not really a factor, it doesn't address the root cause of why someone would want to slaughter people.
Secondly, your asinine solution has several fundamental problems in the US:
1. the sheer amount of firearms
This is most fundamental problem with a blanket ban, is the US has both a ridiculously huge civilian and black market circulation of firearms that even if you threatened state action on otherwise lawfully abiding citizens (and it worries me that you think this is appropriate), you would at best make a small dent in the amount of firearms in circulation. At worst you basically provide the mexican cartels and other organized crime with yet another proxy-rendered income sources thanks to the state.
2. "a world that doesn't exist now"
With the now well documented breaches of both constitutional laws protecting its own citizens, and international law, as well as human right abuses by the US govt, its extremely ignorant or requires a huge amount of cognitive dissonance to think we don't live in a world where a government can turn tyrannical. There's a lot of emotion in your statement but not much critical thought.
3. Media sensationalizes shooting
Like or not, the media is a business and business is good when mass shootings happen. Literally, the media is incentivized to blow spree shootings out of proportion. The reality is more black kids kill other black kids in urban areas every single week and nobody bats an eye because its just assumed as normal. Why aren't people talking about that? Because you solve that and thats like well over half of the US's firearm homicide statistics out the window. Oh but of course to solve that you would need to dramatically improve the quality of life in those areas and that's a lot harder than banning scary looking features on a gun or something equally asinine.[/QUOTE]
This post is possibly the most wise in the thread.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;45013535]And how sure are you that guns have nothing to do with violent activities involving guns?[/QUOTE]
stop putting words in my mouth.
i said that guns aren't the cause of higher crime rates, nothing more, nothing less.
Most people who look at the US gun murder statistics ignore that most of those are gang vs gang scenarios, and not innocent people being shot at by a gun-toting maniac or something. If you wipe out the gangs, either by police action or by actually fixing the problems that cause these gangs to exist in the first place, most firearm-related murders are gone, and we're left with what are basically anecdotes.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45011328]Can someone please tell me what "mental health reform" means.
Cause whenever anyone talks about gun control being part of a solution people always pile on them and say "no fix mental healthcare instead. Never ever talk critically about guns" but then none of those people actually elaborate on how, exactly, they'd treat the abstract problem of "mental illness."
Mandatory mental health screenings for every American once a year? Prozac and Thorazine in the water supply? Correct me if I'm wrong but Elliot Rodger was seeing a therapist and that didn't magically inhibit his shooting. There are a number of things we can do, as a society, to help the mentally ill and keep some of them from turning to violence but shouting "mental healthcare" and then walking away whenever anyone talks about gun control won't help anything. "Whatever it is, it has nothing to do with guns" isn't actually any kind of solution...[/QUOTE]
Honestly? Yeah, bi-yearly check ups of people who've purchased firearms or own firearms. Which include the families. This is for gun-owners only though.
Screening and weeding out unstable people or families with unstable members is probably the best solution.
[editline]6th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rusty100;45013213]'Easier said than done', says only country that refuses to do anything.[/QUOTE]
Which is funny because there have been plenty of bills introduced into the States and the National government, they've failed because they lack support.
[QUOTE=Swilly;45013617]Honestly? Yeah, bi-yearly check ups of people who've purchased firearms or own firearms. Which include the families. This is for gun-owners only though.
Screening and weeding out unstable people or families with unstable members is probably the best solution.[/QUOTE]
the problem is that most guns used in crimes are stolen or given over, and there's a bureaucratic problem when defining mental illness, ensuring consistent diagnosis across financial and social barriers, and the consequences when someone gets their gun taken away because they visit their depressed uncle every so often.
this isn't to suggest that i don't want restrictions, it's just that there aren't any particularly good answers to the question of gun control.
this is why we need research, and we need to tell the NRA to shut the fuck up and stop blocking that research from happening.
[QUOTE=Swilly;45013617]they've failed because they lack support.[/QUOTE]
exactly
[QUOTE=aydin690;45011188]The solution is simple, no citizen should be allowed to own guns. Fuck the 2nd amendment, it was written for a world that doesn't exist now. Just look at Australia.
Give people a year to hand in all of their weapons or else face imprisonment or other harsh punishments. Of course that's never going to happen because the average pro-gun american values their weekend hobby more than people's lives.[/QUOTE]
This could've been a good idea, but problem is that there's too many guns in circulation for it to work now.
The US is stuck with their guns whether they want it or not.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45012263]I believe the same things, namely because of the 2008 Recession. Which reminds me... Could it be possible that any surge in murders and suicides is in part to the economic recessions?[/QUOTE]
I'd say more suicides and robberies either armed or unarmed, murders aren't something you do when your finding it tough to put food on the table everyday
[QUOTE=Rusty100;45013672]exactly[/QUOTE]
That's not really doing nothing, that's more like "Some of us want to, some of us don't."
[QUOTE=Antdawg;45013133]
Really, why would a civilian need an AK74?[/QUOTE]
I don't recall it being called the Bill of Needs.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;45013473]Ok, why not do that and enact gun legislation as well?[/QUOTE]
Or do guns afterwards if they still seem to be a problem
Tackling poverty is generally a proactive solution to fixing a lot of problems, including homicide/mass homicide occurrences. Guns shouldn't be first priority until people just generally stop trying to kill each other so much, for which america has an abnormally high rate in general, not just* pertaining to firearm homicides specifically.
There does seem to be a problem with the sheer number of firearms available in america though, it's jsut saturated, and that could be a legit problem. There's something like 200 million *registered* guns in circulation or something absurd like that, basically one gun per person. I'd say manufacture and import limits should be imposed but that's probably not going to happen (muh free market)
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;45014583]Or do guns afterwards if they still seem to be a problem
Tackling poverty is generally a proactive solution to fixing a lot of problems, including homicide/mass homicide occurrences. Guns shouldn't be first priority until people just generally stop trying to kill each other so much, for which america has an abnormally high rate in general, not just* pertaining to firearm homicides specifically.
There does seem to be a problem with the sheer number of firearms available in america though, it's jsut saturated, and that could be a legit problem. There's something like 200 million *registered* guns in circulation or something absurd like that, basically one gun per person. [B]I'd say manufacture and import limits should be imposed but that's probably not going to happen (muh free market)[/B][/QUOTE]
Manufacture limits would probably be the simplest solution. The majority of illegal firearms come right from the assembly line, rather than from family members and such.
Plus, imposing restrictions increases the price of them, so people are less likely to own a weapon (even though their "right" to do so is unchanged).
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;45013473]Ok, why not do that and enact gun legislation as well?[/QUOTE]
Because gun legislation gets more people killed.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;45013213]'Easier said than done', says only country that refuses to do anything.[/QUOTE]
From the previous shooting but still relevant:
[img]http://37.media.tumblr.com/6a08e1cd571e766dc1fd8aacacc7771d/tumblr_n691o66yfR1qckp4qo1_500.png[/img]
[QUOTE=dilzinyomouth;45013531]are they?
I think the problem is the media making bank off spree shootings but what do I know
[url]http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/blog/Kleck_Patterson.pdf[/url]
hmm not really painting the picture of "gun control will save us all"
[url]http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95379[/url]
according the CDC the most peaceful the US has been in roughly 30 years, hardly an epidemic of mass murderers as the media makes it out to be
[img]http://gyazo.com/52db5151269140c3e0ac57efb0706d94[/img]
numbers are from BJS. So guns are apparently the central problem, yet the vast majority are never used in violent crime. 0.185% of firearms in the US are used in violent crime.
[img]http://gyazo.com/418601b6947b18d3c7229fd0fafffd2c[/img]
CDC. So if we posit that more guns = more firearm homicide, we should see a trend with firearm homicide rapidly increasing, especially given that recent years has seen some record numbers for firearm purchases. Except.. that doesn't seem to be the case.
All in all, we can't turn a blind eye to the role the media plays in sensationalism. While problems exist, the US, and most of the western world in general, is more peaceful now than it has ever been. The truth is mass shootings are a statistical anomaly. One could easily be mislead into thinking we're in a time of mass murder because of the frequency and intensity of reportage, but its just the case the media is also larger than ever, and things get reported with more frequency and more widespread coverage. There were probably several notable mass shootings during your parent's young lives, and dollars to donuts you they couldn't tell you about them because they didn't hear about them.[/QUOTE]
Oh, and that 0.185 does not separate justified homicides either.
[editline]6th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=MachiniOs;45015254]From the previous shooting but still relevant:
[img]http://37.media.tumblr.com/6a08e1cd571e766dc1fd8aacacc7771d/tumblr_n691o66yfR1qckp4qo1_500.png[/img][/QUOTE]
Yes. Let's repeatedly quote [I]The Onion[/I], a satirical news company that makes up imaginary reports and quotes imaginary people in order to express their opinion on a given topic. Real valid point of debate, you guys.
Oh, and to all the people who think taking guns away = less crime, you need to start looking at the real problem. Law enforcement has a tool called "Broken Windows" that they've been using for generations with much success. Essentially Broken Windows is a policy that [U]actually[/U] addresses the problem at the roots. [video=youtube;Rd10WumIAKA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd10WumIAKA[/video]
Most of this thread seems to be filled with "nope impossible" to any suggestion. Lets improve schools by reducing bullying, improve support for people with mental issues, reduce the outcasting of people with said bullying/mental problems, reduce the obsessive gun culture. All that is possible. It's just that most people don't give a shit.
I feel "it's impossible" is just a cop out and a reason to be lazy.
and americans still deny guns are part of the problem that is gun-related crimes
what a surprise
[QUOTE=DeEz;45015405]and americans still deny guns are part of the problem that is gun-related crimes
what a surprise[/QUOTE]
Because they aren't. Do you blame knives for stabbings, as well?
[QUOTE=viper720666;45015448]Because they aren't. Do you blame knives for stabbings, as well?[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. In many places it is illegal to open carry knives or even concealed carry over certain size. In many places butterfly knives are illegal for example. American gun culture is absolutely retarded as it is right now. Guns are everywhere, safety is disregarded, they're praised as save-all do-all tool. It is a lot easier to commit a mass shooting with a readily available gun than mass stabbing with a readily available knife.
[QUOTE=viper720666;45015448]Because they aren't. Do you blame knives for stabbings, as well?[/QUOTE]
knives are incomparable since they actually aren't made for the sole purpose of killing things
oh and countries that have strict gun laws have barely or no shootings at all i wonder why that is
must be that magical mental health fairy
[QUOTE=viper720666;45015284]Oh, and that 0.185 does not separate justified homicides either.
[editline]6th June 2014[/editline]
Yes. Let's repeatedly quote [I]The Onion[/I], a satirical news company that makes up imaginary reports and quotes imaginary people in order to express their opinion on a given topic. Real valid point of debate, you guys.
[/QUOTE]
It doesn't make it any less valid, just because a source is directly from a person does it make it any more meaningful? All The Onion's done is sum up the media coverage of the shooting and made a point, a very valid point in my opinion that Americans need to stop sitting on their arses and do something.
The broken window theory is nice and all but it applies very specifically to vandalism and regular street crime. I don't particularly see the connection between that and mass shootings, a gunman isn't going to turn around and stop in his tracks because the neighbourhood is neat, tidy and the flower bed looks lovely this time of year. There's also the fact that the broken windows theory is all about micro issues such as broken windows and graffiti that are relatively easy to fix. Most of the issues and causes of mass shootings are inherently macro such as the prevalence of guns in America, the lacklustre mental health system and the media who love it when this happens because tragedy sells.
I do understand where you're coming from but at the same time these issues need to be looked at in a more holistic fashion before any form of micro action is taken. That and such actions can often be seen as probing and disrespectful such as the "Stop, Question and Frisk" policy in New York which increased tensions between the the public and law enforcement and led to accusations of institutional racism by minorities.
[QUOTE=viper720666;45015284]Yes. Let's repeatedly quote [I]The Onion[/I], a satirical news company that makes up imaginary reports and quotes imaginary people in order to express their opinion on a given topic. Real valid point of debate, you guys.[/QUOTE]
I guess you're incapable of understanding political satire and how it can powerfully demonstrate issues.
Everything from [I]A Modest Proposal[/I] to even [I]The Master and Margarita[/I], to yes, even The Onion can make perfectly valid criticism.
And honestly that picture is completely indicative of the delusional attitude the USA has towards this issue.
[QUOTE=DeEz;45015504]knives are incomparable since they actually aren't made for the sole purpose of killing things
oh and countries that have strict gun laws have barely or no shootings at all i wonder why that is
must be that magical mental health fairy[/QUOTE]
i remember in one thread someone honestly said we should also ban javelins because they can be used as a weapon or cars/other tools.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.