• Catalan independence voting turns violent - 760 injured by Spanish police, rubber bullets flying
    144 replies, posted
All the Spanish govt needed to do was sit back and go "nah its illegal". Or point out that the Mossos, Cataluña's own police, did jack shit to prevent the voter fraud going on. Or at the very least, dismantle the whole referendum without sending the Guardia out in riot gear to use old ladies as a goddamn piñata for fucks sake.
[QUOTE=Tidusete;52734790]Why is everyone so upset with the spanish government when all they are doing is dismantling an illegal referendum, which was outlawed because our democratically voted in constitution explicitly forbids such a procedure, while giving ways to modify the constitution to suit future needs, as Coment pointed out? In a country based in the rule of law, you can't just say "well, screw the supreme piece of legislation that binds and rules our nation, I'm gonna have it my own way". You try to convince the rest of the population that this is on their best interests, with more or less success, like Podemos is doing. Thing is, particularistic nationalisms such as the Catalonian and Vasque ones (albeit with differences) are extremely focused on their ethnic voters pool, for lack of a better term, and not without reason, since that's the whole point of their existence, and as such disregard the rest of the electorate in their rhetoric, something for which they pay dearly in terms of the popularity of their views in the rest of Spain. Consequently, it will take them a long time before Spain accepts their views and is willing to change the constitution to fit their demands (and mind you, that happens in a completely democratic fashion by voting parties favorable to that proposition, or alternatively by the members of said parties changing their views on the matter as a result of being pressured by their voters to do that).[/QUOTE] Legalism is not a good moral directive. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it is wrong, because the laws themselves can be wrong instead. America and Ireland, for example, shouldn't exist because it was illegal for them to declare independence, but that doesn't mean it was wrong for them to do so. Similarly in the present day, it is wrong for Spain or Iraq to try and suppress peoples right to self-determination, even if it is legal. It is one thing if the government was going to provide a better alternative to make sure the vote is fair, but if the government is trying to prevent a vote altogether then it is within peoples rights to hold that vote themselves, even if the government declares that it is illegal.
[QUOTE=GordonZombie;52734694]Didn't the previous King also assist in the transition of Spain from a fascist dictatorship to a democratic government, though? Just to say.[/QUOTE] That came with pardoning of fascist enforcers and silencing the people. There's still a lot of fascist murderers chilling at their houses without trial. Plus it enforced a monarchy which people didn't want AND the church + a foundation that "preserves the legacy of the dictator" is still being funded by our taxes. Franco's family and the church still have a lot of public places appropiated to their name (which were stolen in the first place), fascism is not prosecuted like in Germany... you get the idea. tl;dr it wasn't enough
38 people have been injured from police rubber bullets
[QUOTE=Tidusete;52734790]Why is everyone so upset with the spanish government when all it's doing is dismantling an illegal referendum, which was outlawed because our democratically voted in constitution explicitly forbids such a procedure, while giving ways to modify the constitution to suit future needs, as Coment pointed out? In a country based in the rule of law, you can't just say "well, screw the supreme piece of legislation that binds and rules our nation, I'm gonna have it my own way". You try to convince the rest of the population that this is on their best interests, with more or less success, like Podemos is doing. Thing is, particularistic nationalisms such as the Catalonian and Vasque ones (albeit with differences) are extremely focused on their ethnic voters pool, for lack of a better term, and not without reason, since that's the whole point of their existence, and as such disregard the rest of the electorate in their rhetoric, something for which they pay dearly in terms of the popularity of their views in the rest of Spain. Consequently, it will take them a long time before Spain accepts their views and is willing to change the constitution to fit their demands (and mind you, that happens in a completely democratic fashion by voting parties favorable to that proposition, or alternatively by the members of said parties changing their views on the matter as a result of being pressured by their voters to do that).[/QUOTE] why should the rest of the country have any say in the matter? if a part of the country wants to leave but the rest says "no" then that's not really fair the whole "It's illegal" argument is complete bullshit and you know it, it's just an excuse to ride roughshod over people who are presently being beaten up by the police for having the audacity to vote against the Madrid government did the americans declare independence legally in 1776?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52734929]why should the rest of the country have any say in the matter? if a part of the country wants to leave but the rest says "no" then that's not really fair[/QUOTE] neither is having a major economical setback because they couldn't have a say in the matter, regardless of your opinion on this, everyone in Spain is going to suffer some sort of consequences from this.
I feel anger, anger and fear. Anger for the absolutely violent and unprofessional response by the cops sent by the Spanish government, a response that left over 300 people hurt, people of all ages who were acting peacefully. Fear for what could the local response be the following days to this gigantic mess, a mess that could have been avoided if good old Mariano Rajoy would use his brain for a change. Though, I also am happy, because these events going on right now are being seen live by the entire world. Hopefully all of this is condemned harshly by the world.
49 injured so far, out of those 11 are police. [editline]1st October 2017[/editline] Catalonian official says 330 injured [editline]1st October 2017[/editline] [media]https://twitter.com/catalangov/status/914465643747069952[/media]
[QUOTE=Glent;52734853]Legalism is not a good moral directive. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it is wrong, because the laws themselves can be wrong instead. America and Ireland, for example, shouldn't exist because it was illegal for them to declare independence, but that doesn't mean it was wrong for them to do so. Similarly in the present day, it is wrong for Spain or Iraq to try and suppress peoples right to self-determination, even if it is legal. It is one thing if the government was going to provide a better alternative to make sure the vote is fair, but if the government is trying to prevent a vote altogether then it is within peoples rights to hold that vote themselves, even if the government declares that it is illegal.[/QUOTE] Point is, the constitution was something we, as a society, agreed upon at a certain moment in time, and it explicitly says that the sovereignety of the nation resides on the spanish people (as a whole), and that the constitution fundaments itself on the inseparable unity of the spanish nation, common and undivisible homeland of every spaniard, and recognizes and guarantees the right to autonomy of all the nationalities and regions that integrate the country, and also the solidarity between them all (worth noting out that autonomy doesn't mean sovereignety, as the ruling 4/1981 of the constitutional courts points out, and there was plenty of debate on the meaning of the term "nationalities", but in essence it would be something as a nation without a state, with cultural, historical and political personality of its own that exists inside of the plurinational reality of the nation of nations that is Spain, as Roca Junyent said). But what's more important is that the same law that sanctions what is happening right now, also provides for means to change it to make it legal (in this case it would be an aggravated procedure of constitutional reform, since it would affect principles and basic values of the constitutional order), so it's not an inmutable thing, which is what I'm trying to convey here, you just have to do it the right way, because the constitution itself recognizes how imposing physical limits to reforms isn't an efficient way to block political changes, as it had been recently proved by the "law 1/1977, from the 4 of January, for the political reform" that articulated the spanish transition [I][U]from[/U][/I] the francoist system (mind you, it was the last fundamental law of the kingdom approved by the francoist courts, with those being the laws that articulated the state powers during the dictatorship) to a democratic one, based on Fernandez-Miranda's idea of transitioning to democracy, that could be summed up as "from a law to a law through the law". Thus I can't see how it's justifiable to act like this or pretend to be a victim of repression. [QUOTE=Sobotnik;52734929]did the americans declare independence legally in 1776?[/QUOTE] Ah yes, Catalonia, that overseas colony of ours which we don't allow to have a voice in our parlament. What does the american revolution have to do with the catalonian independence movement? Do you know anything about their freedom to set the autonomical part of the taxes, set policy on education, etc.? Do you really think that the present political situation in Spain can be compared to the relationship between an XVIII century imperialistic great power and one of its colonies?
And as usual the higher voices in the Spanish government are ignoring all these shameful acts by their forces and keep on repeating themselves, giving all of the blame on Catalunya and Catalunya only for [del]disobeying our master[/del] not cooperating.
[QUOTE=Tidusete;52734790]Why is everyone so upset with the spanish government when all it's doing is dismantling an illegal referendum, which was outlawed because our democratically voted in constitution explicitly forbids such a procedure, while giving ways to modify the constitution to suit future needs, as Coment pointed out? In a country based in the rule of law, you can't just say "well, screw the supreme piece of legislation that binds and rules our nation, I'm gonna have it my own way". You try to convince the rest of the population that this is on their best interests, with more or less success, like Podemos is doing. Thing is, particularistic nationalisms such as the Catalonian and Vasque ones (albeit with differences) are extremely focused on their ethnic voters pool, for lack of a better term, and not without reason, since that's the whole point of their existence, and as such disregard the rest of the electorate in their rhetoric, something for which they pay dearly in terms of the popularity of their views in the rest of Spain. Consequently, it will take them a long time before Spain accepts their views and is willing to change the constitution to fit their demands (and mind you, that happens in a completely democratic fashion by voting parties favorable to that proposition, or alternatively by the members of said parties changing their views on the matter as a result of being pressured by their voters to do that).[/QUOTE] I think people are over waiting for false promises that they know won't come because it doesn't fit certain political party's agenda. They'd have to, firstly, wait for a party that won't shut their demands, which is pretty fucking hard in itself, and then to commit to the necessary reforms to get out of Spain. To do this in a "democratical, sensible way", we'd have to change the structure for this model of government, which is archaic, made by politics from the regime. As I said, I think it's good they're actually fighting for what they want. Even if I was living in Catalonia and didn't want to be independent from Spain, I would still fight for the actual right to vote. I would want my 'No' to be heard, like people want their 'Yes' to be heard. [editline]1st October 2017[/editline] [media]https://twitter.com/RAF_IFA/status/914423016708243456[/media]
[QUOTE=Orkel;52735010]49 injured so far, out of those 11 are police. [editline]1st October 2017[/editline] Catalonian official says 330 injured [editline]1st October 2017[/editline] [media]https://twitter.com/catalangov/status/914465643747069952[/media][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Orkel;52734875]38 people have been injured from police rubber bullets[/QUOTE] Funnily enough the police injuries are mostly light wrist injuries due to beating so many people with their truncheons And using rubber bullets is actually illegal here What a shitshow, here comes being the laughing stock of europe/the world again
[QUOTE=Jorori;52735045]Funnily enough the police injuries are mostly light wrist injuries due to beating so many people with their truncheons[/QUOTE] Source?
[t]http://img.pr0gramm.com/2017/10/01/c4dd7ced2a303f82.jpg[/t]
It's funny that the only defense that anti-independence voters have is "but it's illegal! And that was decided democratically!". I guess democracy is only worthwhile when it benefits Madrid.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52735089]It's funny that the only defense that anti-independence voters have is "but it's illegal! And that was decided democratically!". I guess democracy is only worthwhile when it benefits Madrid.[/QUOTE] Exactly. Slavery and fascism were once legal, does that make morally right to commit to them, and wrong to try to fight against them?
[QUOTE=Ol' Pie;52735099]Exactly. Slavery and fascism were once legal, does that make morally right to commit to them, and wrong to try to fight against them?[/QUOTE] Well yeah because they voted and you know how democracy works, literally nothing can be changed or affected ever forever after a vote goes through, and you can't change a constitution through like, amendments or something.
[QUOTE=Orkel;52735049]Source?[/QUOTE] It's all in spanish but here you go: [url]http://www.abc.es/catalunya/politica/20140430/abci-adios-pelotas-goma-201404292041.html[/url] [url]http://www.publico.es/politica/referendum-1-policia-dispara-pelotas-goma-gente-prohibidas-catalunya.html[/url] [QUOTE]El uso de este material antidistubio había sido ilegalizado en Catalunya, que prohibió expresamente a los Mossos dÉscuadra su uso desde en el año 2014 tras meses de controversia. El caso de Ester Quintana -la mujer que perdió un ojo durante la huelga general del 14N de 2012- fue finalmente el detonante de que el Parlament prohibiera el uso de este tipo de material antidisturbio.[/QUOTE] Basically Mossos are forbidden from using them and they're not legal to use in Catalonia since 2014, and even if they were to be used they have to bounce on the floor at least once to minimize real damage as they're meant to dissuade, but there's reports of police officers aiming directly at people and causing serious wounds [media]https://twitter.com/lamarea_com/status/914409485455777793[/media] As for the wrist splains: [url]https://www.policeone.com/health-fitness/articles/8335331-Why-joint-back-and-shoulder-pain-are-common-in-cops-and-how-to-fix-it/[/url] [QUOTE]Officers are most commonly injured on duty one of two ways: In an instant, face-to-face physical altercation, [U]or from repetitive movements and habits that cause a gradual injury by wearing down joints or muscles.[/U][/QUOTE] There's a lot of videos of people being beaten up by the police, so it's no surprise
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;52735102]Well yeah because they voted and you know how democracy works, literally nothing can be changed or affected ever forever after a vote goes through, and you can't change a constitution through like, amendments or something.[/QUOTE] That's true, but I get that people feel their movement is legitimate, since they don't have any other means to get what they want. They cannot change the constitution, but the government can ignore and cheat their own laws system for their own good. Our goverment has brought this on itself, and believe me that this violent repression is only going to legitimize even more the independent movement. They've just finished pushing Catalonia out of Spain.
Spain is a giant failing piss baby, I don't blame Catalonia for wanting independence either.
I remember hearing people talk about this on friday but I had no idea what was going on. I don't really want to see cataluña go independent but this is sure as hell the wrong way to go about it. [QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;52735125]Spain is a giant failing piss baby[/QUOTE] How so?
I hate seeing all these foreign pundits became experts on Spain overnight and are blaming Rajoy for everything.. I mean the police is under the control of the Judiciary and are executing court orders.. Rajoy (the executive) is being blamed for not stopping the judiciary which is sort of crazy, as if he does that it's violating the law and the premise of separation of powers.
[QUOTE=Turing;52735189]I hate seeing all these foreign pundits became experts on Spain overnight and are blaming Rajoy for everything.. I mean the police is under the control of the Judiciary and are executing court orders.. Rajoy (the executive) is being blamed for not stopping the judiciary which is sort of crazy, as if he does that it's violating the law and the premise of separation of powers.[/QUOTE] Reminder that thanks to him since he got into power the executive pretty much had no dialog with Catalonia, leading to several problems ( region under funding being one of the most troublesome ones ) that made the number of independence supporters to literally skyrocket into such unseen levels. And like many said, all of this could have been avoided by just letting them celebrate the referendum ( which was not binding anyway ), or allow to modify an old 40 year document which the government refuse to modify unless they can make benefit of it ( like adding a new paragraph in a secret vote during the summer some years ago ). What makes me have shame of my country is seeing lots and lots of people carrying and singing the fascist flag and hymn, as well as defending the violent police/military ( the Guardia Civil, "civil guard" is a branch of the army ) actuation with "they brought themselves this with that illegal vote". In fact, several of the wounded actually were going to vote No, but this probably made change their minds. This only will make more solid the argument of them to secede, not only within Spain but on the entire world. P.D: as expected, all the mass media either reports "successful blocking without incidents" or just not report at all.
[QUOTE=Maestro Fenix;52735312]This only will make more solid the argument of them to secede, not only within Spain but on the entire world.[/QUOTE] I've seen similar posts like this a lot here but, not really? EU already has to deal with Brexit and most likely don't want another problem like that, Asia and Africa don't give a shit, even we the 'hermanos' are giving this little to no importance.
How the fuck does IRAQ have a much better and respectful referendum whilst in the midst of armed conflict and who's would be independent people in question are hated by surrounding governments? What the shit Spain?
[QUOTE=Tidusete;52735026]Ah yes, Catalonia, that overseas colony of ours which we don't allow to have a voice in our parlament. What does the american revolution have to do with the catalonian independence movement? Do you know anything about their freedom to set the autonomical part of the taxes, set policy on education, etc.? Do you really think that the present political situation in Spain can be compared to the relationship between an XVIII century imperialistic great power and one of its colonies?[/QUOTE] if catalonia is free and treated fairly, then why do the Catalonians have an independence movement and why does the Madrid government feel compelled to suppress the movement? it's very hard for me to believe you when you talk about how good catalonia has it, when i can quite plainly and obviously see for myself that they have to chain their ballot boxes to the fucking floor and the police are busy beating up people for voting lol i say catalonia should fight for its independence and freedom, spain has no right to shit over the nation
here are some videos from my town [video=youtube;Q2LwT8NtzqE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2LwT8NtzqE[/video] [video]https://youtu.be/wyqENn2cqZ4[/video]
Four. Hundred. Sixty. Five. 465. Is now the number of people harmed by the national police.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52735430]if catalonia is free and treated fairly, then why do the Catalonians have an independence movement and why does the Madrid government feel compelled to suppress the movement? it's very hard for me to believe you when you talk about how good catalonia has it, when i can quite plainly and obviously see for myself that they have to chain their ballot boxes to the fucking floor and the police are busy beating up people for voting lol i say catalonia should fight for its independence and freedom, spain has no right to shit over the nation[/QUOTE] I can't elaborate right now because I have to leave, but I encourage you to read about the catalonian bourgeoisie, textile industry in catalonia and the protectionist measures taken to protect it from european competitors, and also their reactions to free market when things changed. That's goes back (in part at least) to the root of the issue. About supressing a movement, they aren't doing that. They are supressing an illegal act, but as I pointed out in previous posts, everything is subject to change according to the constitution, also there are pro independence parties in the spanish congress, so I don't see how they are being supressed, I only see them as being minoritary parties.
[QUOTE=Tidusete;52735447]I can't elaborate right now because I have to leave, but I encourage you to read about the catalonian bourgeoisie, textile industry in catalonia and the protectionist measures taken to protect it from european competitors, and also their reactions to free market when things changed. That's goes back (in part at least) to the root of the issue. About supressing a movement, they aren't doing that. They are supressing an illegal act, but as I pointed out in previous posts, everything is subject to change according to the constitution, also there are pro independence parties in the spanish congress, so I don't see how they are being supressed, I only see them as being minoritary parties.[/QUOTE] supressing the referendum is ok, attacking innocent people isn't, franco is dead, this shouldn't be a thing anymore
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.