• Catalan independence voting turns violent - 760 injured by Spanish police, rubber bullets flying
    144 replies, posted
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;52746622]Ask someone from Catalonia, the ones breaking the law just to voice their opinions saying they want to be independant[/QUOTE] No, I am asking to you. Prove me, if you think spain is oppressive, when was the last time Spain pressed Catalonia to speak only spanish for example.
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52746627]No, I am asking to you. Prove me, if you think spain is oppressive, when was the last time Spain pressed Catalonia to speak only spanish for example.[/QUOTE] I see what you're doing, no, I don't have proof, and I don't need it. The Cataloinians are voting on their own accord, not because i'm telling them to. If you want legit info, ASK ONE
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;52746634]I see what you're doing, no, I don't have proof, and I don't need it. The Cataloinians are voting on their own accord, not because i'm telling them to. If you want legit info, ASK ONE[/QUOTE] See? Then how can you say they have a reason to secede if there is no example of other oppression but police brutality and mismanagement of relations by Spain.
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52746643]See? Then how can you say they have a reason to secede if there is no example of other oppression but police brutality and mismanagement of relations by Spain.[/QUOTE] ... Because they are risking bodily harm and arrest in order to simply vote on leaving? are you kidding me?
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52746588]Misinformation at best. See Brexit and Trump.[/QUOTE] why is it that anything that "goes wrong" in the west (such as the election of the wrong party or some regional dissent) is somehow automatically the consequence of "misinformation" or "russia" or some other bullshit? i'm not gonna deny that russia has had an influence in things or that the media lies on the regular but it's pretty fucking ludicrous to blame all the problems on that [editline]4th October 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52746643]See? Then how can you say they have a reason to secede if there is no example of other oppression but police brutality and mismanagement of relations by Spain.[/QUOTE] what reason do they need to leave? if a people wants independence they should have the right to
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52746651]why is it that anything that "goes wrong" in the west (such as the election of the wrong party or some regional dissent) is somehow automatically the consequence of "misinformation" or "russia" or some other bullshit? i'm not gonna deny that russia has had an influence in things or that the media lies on the regular but it's pretty fucking ludicrous to blame all the problems on that [editline]4th October 2017[/editline] what reason do they need to leave? if a people wants independence they should have the right to[/QUOTE] It doesn't have to be russia itself. Even some bullshit hoax news made by the same party or by someone who spread hoaxes as a business can do such. Just saying.
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52746657]It doesn't have to be russia itself. Even some bullshit hoax news made by the same party or by someone who spread hoaxes as a business can do such. Just saying.[/QUOTE] What hoax suddenly made all these people want Independence from fascist Spain
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52746657]It doesn't have to be russia itself. Even some bullshit hoax news made by the same party or by someone who spread hoaxes as a business can do such. Just saying.[/QUOTE] how is this the cause for catalonian independence? like did some newspaper trick the catalonian population into wanting independence? what? i guess it must be pretty convenient that if you don't want them to declare independence, just say that they were misdirected by fake news and that if they vote the wrong way its not because they want it, but because somebody tricked them into it that argument is bullshit and i'm getting increasingly tired of it
they're all just naive little children who were tricked to vote for independance
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;52746670]they're all just naive little children who were tricked to vote for independance[/QUOTE] If this was irony, you might be right on what you said. Just saying, here in Italy the rise of populist parties is due to people who usually earns from clickbait articles and such. You might all say "what does Italy have to do with Spain?" The same modus operandi of the two countries as well as there are always people who will trick people no matter the nationality. There are always people who will spread hoaxes because either they want a party to win or because they know they can earn from those fools who usually never double check sources or considers normal newspapers and News channels as rubbish because "is controlled by the government".
Wow, you honestly are saying that it's because the population is just too stupid, and therfore the decision must be made for them... please never go near having any form of power
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52746681]If this was irony, you might be right on what you said. Just saying, here in Italy the rise of populist parties is due to people who usually earns from clickbait articles and such. You might all say "what does Italy have to do with Spain?" The same modus operandi of the two countries as well as there are always people who will trick people no matter the nationality. There are always people who will spread hoaxes because either they want a party to win or because they know they can earn from those fools who usually never double check sources or considers normal newspapers and News channels as rubbish because "is controlled by the government".[/QUOTE] so which political position is the one that "fools" don't subscribe to and is therefore the only legitimate one allowed because all of the others only have their support because people were manipulated into it?
[QUOTE=SIRIUS;52746689]Wow, you honestly are saying that it's because the population is just too stupid, and therfore the decision must be made for them... please never go near having any form of power[/QUOTE] is that an insult sir? Did i insulted any population by any chance? Or I just said the same old news that people is usually gullible enough?
What?
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52746784]is that an insult sir? Did i insulted any population by any chance? Or I just said the same old news that people is usually gullible enough?[/QUOTE] You're trying very very hard to push the silly narrative that anyone other than the people of Catalonia is responsible for the people of Catalonia wanting Independence from Spain. Why?
[QUOTE=Quark:;52746853]You're trying very very hard to push the silly narrative that anyone other than the people of Catalonia is responsible for the people of Catalonia wanting Independence from Spain. Why?[/QUOTE] I am not saying is all Catalonia's fault, but they started by doing an illegal referendum, not approved by constitutional chance, so is no surprise that Spain sent the guards and the Police. What I condemn is how Spain handled it, making a mess. When will you all aknowledge that we ain't in the 1800, where independence movements were legit as they usually oppressed hard a population. Catalonia hasn't had any other episode of repression. They had a lot of autonomy, have their culture, their language and all. They just did this shit because they felt that they were paying a lot and getting nothing back, which is not true.
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52746931]I am not saying is all Catalonia's fault, but they started by doing an illegal referendum, not approved by constitutional chance, so is no surprise that Spain sent the guards and the Police. What I condemn is how Spain handled it, making a mess. When will you all aknowledge that we ain't in the 1800, where independence movements were legit as they usually oppressed hard a population. Catalonia hasn't had any other episode of repression. They had a lot of autonomy, have their culture, their language and all. They just did this shit because they felt that they were paying a lot and getting nothing back, which is not true.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=History of Catalonia] A significant factor that comes into play is regional pride and their adherence to their local culture which has been historically threatened by a homogenized Spain. Before the Spanish Civil War, Catalonia practiced self-rule, however, when the Spanish dictator Franco came to power in 1939, Catalonia’s bid for independence would be cast aside and a deadly period of oppression would consume the region for decades. The people of Catalonia were forbidden from using the Catalan language, and punished for expressing their Catalan identity. Nevertheless, Catalan culture endured the dark years of Franco’s regime. After the dictator’s death in 1975, fascism came crashing down giving way to democracy. Due to their tremulous yet celebrated past, securing and perpetuating a singular identity is of the utmost importance for the Catalan people. [/QUOTE] Source: [URL]http://fordhampoliticalreview.org/catalonia-proud-and-prejudiced/[/URL] [QUOTE=More History of Catalonia] Franco gained power over Spain in 1939 and controlled Spain until his death in 1975. He believed that Castilian culture and language should be central to economic, political, and social institutions in all regions. He promised "to enforce a brand of traditionalist and authoritarian Spanish nationalism that harbored no expression of the distinct 'minority cultures',? such as Catalan. Franco prohibited the use of Catalan names. Castilian equivalents had to be used, during his regime, religious services were held in Castilian, and Castilian was the only language permitted to be used in public. Schools were banned from teaching Catalan. Few books were published in Catalan and any that were published were not popularly read because most Catalans could not read Catalan. Images of popular Catalan culture like the sardanes, a traditional Catalan dance, were also banned. Popular symbols of Catalan nationalism, such as statues, portraits, the flag, were all removed from public view.Even the names of streets that were in Catalan were changed to a Castilian name. [/QUOTE] Source: [URL]http://scholar.oxy.edu/urc_student/909/[/URL] Catalonia has been oppressed, you're just electronically plugging your ears and making loud sounds
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52746931]I am not saying is all Catalonia's fault, but they started by doing an illegal referendum, not approved by constitutional chance, so is no surprise that Spain sent the guards and the Police. What I condemn is how Spain handled it, making a mess.[/QUOTE] You really have no idea what's going on, do you?
People don't decide to secede for no reason. Maybe disinformation had a role but regardless there's no denying that Catalans are deeply dissatisfied with the current state of affairs in some way. Even Brexit I'd argue is symptomatic of problems within the UK. A movement like this doesn't gain such traction from thin air.
[QUOTE=Quark:;52747000]Source: [URL]http://fordhampoliticalreview.org/catalonia-proud-and-prejudiced/[/URL] Source: [URL]http://scholar.oxy.edu/urc_student/909/[/URL] Catalonia has been oppressed, you're just electronically plugging your ears and making loud sounds[/QUOTE] So a fucking [B][I]dictator [/I][/B]oppressed people? Well shit color me surprised. I think they+we had bigger problems with not being able to manifest, fearing saying something against the regime or Franco himself and 'disappearing' or straight up being killed and thrown away in a hole in the middle of nowhere; with having children separated from their mothers, hiding your religions, being marked as a sindicalist and having nowhere to work, getting everything censored by state criteria... Hell, even that is a shoddy example: I think francoism ended up in moderately good terms with catalonian if they jailed for 8 months and fining for 10k pesetas (~60€ now, but WAY more in the past) a weekly magazine writer that "[URL="http://hemeroteca.lavanguardia.com/preview/1969/03/30/pagina-11/33571038/pdf.html"]threw concepts offensive for the catalonian tongue, whose free particular use is respected and guaranteed[/URL]"
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;52731983]"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."[/QUOTE] Yeh but if you just get really good at putting down violent revolutions you should be alright. The USSR lasted most of a century. It'd take outside intervention to stop spain being able to keep the region down.
Haven't seen it posted yet, so [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/73kqqo/catalan_referendum_riot_police_fire_rubber/dnr1apy/]here's a reddit post[/url] with a shitload of videos of the violence. Some of the stuff has already been posted in the thread.
[QUOTE=MarcusSmith;52746449]Maybe because is better a peaceful independence than a bloody one?[/QUOTE] It's almost like a peaceful independence was what they were trying to work out until a certain police force came around and started literally beating and shooting people in the streets. How hard is this concept to understand exactly? Like get fucking real mate, I was and am 100% against Brexit but I never once thought that we should be going fascist police state on people's asses for peacefully doing their democratic duty by voting. [QUOTE=djjkxbox;52747051]You really have no idea what's going on, do you?[/QUOTE] I really hope that's the case. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance after all.
Okay, in modern Spain, Catalonia had a quite stable relationship with Madrid until 2006 or so. Then, a new Authonomy Statut, that gave them more independence in taxes, and also called Catalonia a nation within the Spanish state, was redacted, and accepted by referendum. Keep in mind, the Basque country handles its own taxes, and said Statut was quite similar to the one the Basques have. However, the PP started its "they are breaking Spain" shit, and, as they are unable to debate and consider any opposite point, the kept making noise for 4 years. In 2010, the PP sent said Statut (which had been vigent for 4 years, and the thing that was killing the state was having a speculative bubble-based economy, rather than Catalonia handling itself) to the Constitutional court. And, under shoddy circumstances (judges changing without explicit reasons, voting seasons without the proper number of judges...) it was deemed inconstitutional. Then, the next year the PP won the elections and brought back national catholicism. And the very next day of Catalonia, after a bailout, a regressive Education policy, and post-truth galore, cue rising independentism. National Catholicism cannot fathom the concept of negotiation. It brute forces itself, "we are right". The very same ministers who send the police after voters are giving medals to fucking images of the Virgin Mary. You cannot imagine how fucking crooked the PP is. And the PSOE isn't much better either, specially the old guard like Gonzalez or Guerra. After all, when we had ETA terrorists around, the PSOE trained another terrorist group to fight ETA (or, more often than not, random Basque people).
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