‘Brexit’ Fuels Feeling in Scotland That Time Is Right for Independence - Polidicks

[QUOTE=The mouse;51959775]The difference being that the UK is a democracy, the EU isn't. The executive body the Commission, isn't elected.[/QUOTE] uh the EU is a democracy, we even get a veto lol scotland doesnt get a veto within the UK

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51959904]no that's bollocks, the parliament has previously forced a commission to dissolve, and the parliament is independently elected from all nations in the EU, so they don't "share the same goals" this is patently untrue considering a large number of EU representatives are euroceptics, do they share the same goals as the commission? considering most of the representatives the UK elected in the last EU election were from UKIP, the idea that they share the same goals is fucking [I]laughable[/I][/QUOTE] First of all 80% of MEPs are in pro-EU or Europhile groupings (~595 MEPs), so the amount of Eurosceptic MEPs is marginal to insignificant. Therefore 80% of MEPs share the same goals in the sense that they all want to see more EU integration by definition, thereby concurring with the goals of the commission.

[QUOTE=The mouse;51959967]First of all 80% of MEPs are in pro-EU or Europhile groupings (~595 MEPs), so the amount of Eurosceptic MEPs is marginal to insignificant. Therefore 80% of MEPs share the same goals in the sense that they all want to see more EU integration by definition.[/QUOTE] source I hope you're not using party affiliation as a guide as to whether or not they're pro-EU because that is blatantly terrible logic considering by that logic, 100% of the UK parliament MPs were pro-EU

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51959976]source I hope you're not using party affiliation as a guide as to whether or not they're pro-EU because that is blatantly terrible logic considering by that logic, 100% of the UK parliament MPs were pro-EU[/QUOTE] The EPP (217), S&D (189), ALDE (68), GUE/NGL (52) and The Greens (51) are all to varying degrees Pro-EU or Europhile parties. Together they make up ~580 MEPs/751

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51959904]no that's bollocks, the parliament has previously forced a commission to dissolve, and the parliament is independently elected from all nations in the EU, so they don't "share the same goals" this is patently untrue considering a large number of EU representatives are euroceptics, do they share the same goals as the commission? considering most of the representatives the UK elected in the last EU election were from UKIP, the idea that they share the same goals is fucking [I]laughable[/I][/QUOTE] the UK electing Ukip reps as MEP's should have been an indication to Cameron how a large number of the UK electorate felt about the EU.

[QUOTE=The mouse;51960017]The EPP (217), S&D (189), ALDE (68), GUE/NGL (52) and The Greens (51) are all to varying degrees Pro-EU or Europhile parties. Together they make up ~580 MEPs/751[/QUOTE] cool, so as I said you're using party affiliation as an indicator, meaning that the UK parliament was Conservative (330) + Labour (229) + SNP (54) + Liberal Democrats (9) 622/650 pro-eu not including the tiny parties and independents! pretty impressive!

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51959807]no less democratic than voting for project fear.[/QUOTE] I find it so fucking cute that you insist on referring to the remain arguments as "project fear". When the leave arguments pretty much all boiled down to "BROWN PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COME OVER HERE AND FUCK YOUR WIVEEEESSSS", "BRUSSELS WANTS TO EAT US ALLLLLLLLL" and such gems as "WE'RE AT BREAKING POOOOINNNNNNT (*n.b. the related image has no relation to this argument but we think it's spooky because it has browns in it)". That sounds like nothing but fear to me. I also love the hypocrisy of leave voters; "ugh fucking unelected elite telling us we can't have bendy 'nanas! Britun for britiush! Soverings for all!" *Scotland want some sovereignty* "WHAT THE FUCK WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO LEAVE WE OWN YOU CUNTS GET BACK HERE". You were willing to throw the entire Union under a bus, why the fuck do you care if a part of the Union now wants to throw itself under another, bigger bus? Voting leave; not even once. [editline]14th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51959904]no that's bollocks, the parliament has previously forced a commission to dissolve, and the parliament is independently elected from all nations in the EU, so they don't "share the same goals" this is patently untrue considering a large number of EU representatives are euroceptics, do they share the same goals as the commission? considering most of the representatives the UK elected in the last EU election were from UKIP, the idea that they share the same goals is fucking [I]laughable[/I][/QUOTE] Exactly. The whole MEP system is how the EU is meant to reach out to us in our constituencies. Much like how our normal MPs do so for No. 10 itself. If this country is full of thick enough shits to keep electing clowns like Farage (who doesn't give a toss about his voters, heads up!) as MEP, why the fuck are people then surprised when he doesn't actually interact with the voters and get their voices heard? He spent all of his time at EU parliament being a dickhead or doing nothing. He didn't cover policy one fucking bit, we got ourselves into this mess.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;51960106]I find it so fucking cute that you insist on referring to the remain arguments as "project fear". When the leave arguments pretty much all boiled down to "BROWN PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COME OVER HERE AND FUCK YOUR WIVEEEESSSS", "BRUSSELS WANTS TO EAT US ALLLLLLLLL" and such gems as "WE'RE AT BREAKING POOOOINNNNNNT (*n.b. the related image has no relation to this argument but we think it's spooky because it has browns in it)". That sounds like nothing but fear to me. I also love the hypocrisy of leave voters; "ugh fucking unelected elite telling us we can't have bendy 'nanas! Britun for britiush! Soverings for all!" *Scotland want some sovereignty* "WHAT THE FUCK WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO LEAVE WE OWN YOU CUNTS GET BACK HERE". You were willing to throw the entire Union under a bus, why the fuck do you care if a part of the Union now wants to throw itself under another, bigger bus? Voting leave; not even once. [/QUOTE] you only really see this kind of bullshit rhetoric written by remainers, much like yourself. if, as you claim "[B][I]the leave arguments pretty much all boiled down to[/I][/B] "BROWN PEOPLE ARE GOING TO COME OVER HERE AND FUCK YOUR WIVEEEESSSS", "BRUSSELS WANTS TO EAT US ALLLLLLLLL" and such gems as "WE'RE AT BREAKING POOOOINNNNNNT (*n.b. the related image has no relation to this argument but we think it's spooky because it has browns in it)" then I assume you can post some links to prove it?

[QUOTE=Vasili;51959358]I thought Spain wasn't going to do this now. Hmm. Arguments used against Brexit now in favour of independence. Scotland will see itself fucked for a few years as it tries to negotiate terms for joiniing the EU by itself, the whole UK will be hit too.[/QUOTE] 3 years ago you were trying to persuade us staying was a good idea. Now look where we are : getting dragged out of the EU by our ear, currency plummeted by >15% in the last 9 months, human rights act in the firing line along with a whole host of devolved powers likely to be removed by the unelected Palpatine lookalike. No thanks.

Never thought I would see the United Kingdom cease to exist.

[QUOTE=Flapadar;51960401]3 years ago you were trying to persuade us staying was a good idea.[/QUOTE] I don't get your finger pointing.

[QUOTE=MissZoey;51959608]According to Wikipedia, Great Britain simply refers to the main island that England, Wales and Scotland are on. The political entity, which is what is falling apart here, is the United Kingdom. Great Britain isn't splitting apart, it's not like the island is separating. Your use of Great Britain would have been correct in 1707-1801, but we then changed to being the UK.[/QUOTE] Yeh its Great Britain as in the greater of the British Isles.

[QUOTE=Vasili;51960785]I don't get your finger pointing.[/QUOTE] I'm hoping you'll admit you fucked up 3 years ago

[QUOTE=Flapadar;51960834]I'm hoping you'll admit you fucked up 3 years ago[/QUOTE] Why are you weirdly trying to put me on spotlight? I'd appreciate an actual discussion.

[QUOTE=Vasili;51960839]Why are you weirdly trying to put me on spotlight? I'd appreciate an actual discussion.[/QUOTE] You were one of the most prominent faces of better together on facepunch in the last indyref. Voting no hasn't worked out well for Scotland.

[QUOTE=Flapadar;51960849]You were one of the most prominent faces of better together on facepunch in the last indyref.[/QUOTE] I like many others argued for why Scotland should stay in the UK during the period of 2013-2014, yeah.

[QUOTE=Flapadar;51960849]You were one of the most prominent faces of better together on facepunch in the last indyref. Voting no hasn't worked out well for Scotland.[/QUOTE] Even if they were prominent, there's no need to single them out though - the calling out of specific user (Tudd is another example) is a pretty crap thing to do imo. It's not like Vasili is single-handedly responsible for everything that happened since the last indy ref.

If people realized Scotland couldn't actually get into the EU, they probably wouldn't vote independence.

Firstly, Scotland probably won't vote to leave the UK. ..Anyway, couldn't England, Wales and Northern Ireland just form a new union outside the EU and leave scotland in it as "The UK". The UK then renames itself Scotland. I know the answer's "no", but there's probably more to it than that.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;51960951]If people realized Scotland couldn't actually get into the EU, they probably wouldn't vote independence.[/QUOTE] Thing is, out of the UK, we can try. Stuck in the UK? We're shackled to a xenophobic zombie of a nation that is blundering on going "Muh empire." Like, any attempt to use the EU and not being in it against the Independence movement died when you voted to drag us out of it. We're going to be out of it ANYWAY. Might as well cut ourselves off from you so we can at least TRY to get back in. Stuck to your bloated corpse of a nation, we don't even have that choice.

[QUOTE=ph:lxyz;51960960] ..Anyway, couldn't England, Wales and Northern Ireland just form a new union outside the EU and leave scotland in it as "The UK". The UK then renames itself Scotland. I know the answer's "no", but there's probably more to it than that.[/QUOTE] In terms of names: Our current full name is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If Scotland leaves then it will probably be known as Scotland whereas the UK will still be known as the UK. But, we would become the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland instead. On the politics (which is what I think you're referring to): Scotland has to formally leave the UK before it can join the EU. So Scotland opts out of any deals the UK has with the EU then has to re-apply like any other candidate nation. The EU is quite clear that an independent Scotland would not 'inherit' the UK's ability to stay outside the Euro nor would it get a rebate like the UK currently does.

[QUOTE=Boilrig;51960951]If people realized Scotland couldn't actually get into the EU, they probably wouldn't vote independence.[/QUOTE] if malta can get in the EU, why can't scotland exactly?

Fly free, Scotland.

[QUOTE=ph:lxyz;51960960]Firstly, Scotland probably won't vote to leave the UK.[/QUOTE] they said that about brexit and donald trump

[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51961014]if malta can get in the EU, why can't scotland exactly?[/QUOTE] Scotland could eventually re-join the EU, no sane person is disputing that. The problem Scotland has is that the EU would have to break its own rules to let them in immediately after independence. EU rules state that a country cannot have a budget deficit of more than 3% in the 3 years in the run-up to them joining the EU. Most people think that Scotland would have a deficit of around 9% if it were to go independent so it would have to reduce that before it could join the EU. It would take years of spending cuts/ tax rises in order for it to comply with EU accession rules - which I don't think is made clear by the SNP.

[QUOTE=The mouse;51959775]The difference being that the UK is a democracy, the EU isn't. The executive body the Commission, isn't elected.[/QUOTE] from what ive seen, the UK is hardly any more democratic than the EU, which is a council of countries like the UN. whatever group can cut the best deal to secure votes basically gets to run a parlament almost unchecked and you dont get to vote on your PM which is effectively your head of state

NI also voted (not as strongly) as scotland to remain in the EU, this will only fuel the independence issue there as well

[QUOTE=Sableye;51961139]from what ive seen, the UK is hardly any more democratic than the EU, which is a council of countries like the UN. whatever group can cut the best deal to secure votes basically gets to run a parlament almost unchecked and you dont get to vote on your PM which is effectively your head of state[/QUOTE] It's not a perfect democracy but our executive are elected as MPs into the House of Commons (whereas the Commission isn't elected at all). [QUOTE]whatever group can cut the best deal to secure votes basically gets to run a parlament almost unchecked[/QUOTE] That's how all Parliaments work - even in proportional representation systems. [QUOTE]you dont get to vote on your PM which is effectively your head of state[/QUOTE] Again, this is a feature of Parliamentary systems - the leader of the largest party gets to form a Government. It works that way in Denmark, Sweden, Australia and other parliamentary systems. It is just a different system to the USA, France, etc. which are Republics.

Why do some people have such a huge problem with Scotland being allowed to decide its own fate?

[QUOTE=SeamanStains;51961340]Why do some people have such a huge problem with Scotland being allowed to decide its own fate?[/QUOTE] Because they were already given the "once in a lifetime" opportunity 3 years ago. Brexit changes nothing because an independent Scotland would still be outside the EU. Apparently Scotland begs to differ with the SNP. [media]https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/841778219338612736[/media]