‘Brexit’ Fuels Feeling in Scotland That Time Is Right for Independence - Polidicks

[QUOTE=David29;51973362]I'm discussing with Sobotnik the principal rather than anything specific. He's stated that expert views are wrong and not needed. Quite a U-turn from what remainers thought about expert views in regards to Brexit.[/QUOTE] they're wrong and not needed because brexit proved that we didn't need any experts

[QUOTE=David29;51973362]I'm discussing with Sobotnik the principal rather than anything specific. He's stated that expert views are wrong and not needed. Quite a U-turn from what remainers thought about expert views in regards to Brexit.[/QUOTE] i don't know about you but every single one of sobotnik's posts sound like they're dripping with sarcasm if anything, i think he might be making fun of the fact that the same people who were dismissing the 'expert' view on whether or not brexit would be a good idea are now suddenly abandoning those arguments when it comes to scottish independence i mean, how [I]relevant are the economic arguments [/I]when they could be [I]free of the man in westminister telling them what to do[/I]

I just think there's so many more sensible ways to make everyone, Scotland and south, happy. Don't go through with brexit, perhaps have a second referendum. Get rid of the first past the post voting system, the bane of our democracy. Get the torries out of government Seize the means of production sack Westminster, Kill the torries Invade Saudi arabia. Workers of the world unite.

[QUOTE=The Jack;51973920]I just think there's so many more sensible ways to make everyone, Scotland and south, happy. Don't go through with brexit, perhaps have a second referendum. Get rid of the first past the post voting system, the bane of our democracy. Get the torries out of government Seize the means of production sack Westminster, Kill the torries Invade Saudi arabia. Workers of the world unite.[/QUOTE] Four legs good, two legs better!

[QUOTE=The Jack;51973920]I just think there's so many more sensible ways to make everyone, Scotland and south, happy. Don't go through with brexit, perhaps have a second referendum. [B]Get rid of the first past the post voting system[/B], the bane of our democracy. [B]Get the torries out of government[/B] Seize the means of production sack Westminster, [B]Kill the torries[/B] Invade Saudi arabia. Workers of the world unite.[/QUOTE] Get rid FPTP system in United Kingdom is ironically improved with Instant-Runoff Voting or Range Voting will not destorying democracy and help voting all tories out. But killing all them is way too far. But everything else its way more dumb and too unrealistic.

I was joking with some of that. Half joking. Honestly, I think sacking Westminster is more likely than Labour or Conservative willingly giving up their biggest edge in keeping monopoly over parliament. A lot of Labour are just diet Tory, and they'd rather loose to conservatives every time than give minority parties a fighting chance. Our allies would never let us take the saudi's But it'd be nice if we went to war that could have good effects on the surrounding region (Saudi wealth'd go to allied/moderate groups, like kurds, rather than Islamic extremists) I mean we could probably just fund Kurds, but then someone'd fund their enemies.

[QUOTE=The Jack;51973920]I just think there's so many more sensible ways to make everyone, Scotland and south, happy. Don't go through with brexit, perhaps have a second referendum. Get rid of the first past the post voting system, the bane of our democracy. Get the torries out of government Seize the means of production sack Westminster, Kill the torries Invade Saudi arabia. Workers of the world unite.[/QUOTE] comrade, you forgot to execute the exploitative landlords and capitalists and to enact a revolution to eliminate class divisions and demolish the state once a communal system wherein the workers own the products of their labor by owning the means of production and the means of subsistence. the only reason to invade saudi arabia is to free the bedouin and the workers from the exploitative oil robber-baron capitalists exploiting their labor goddamn amateur

[QUOTE=The Jack;51973920]I just think there's so many more sensible ways to make everyone, Scotland and south, happy. Don't go through with brexit, perhaps have a second referendum. Get rid of the first past the post voting system, the bane of our democracy. Get the torries out of government Seize the means of production sack Westminster, Kill the torries Invade Saudi arabia. Workers of the world unite.[/QUOTE] A lot of people would agree with much of your post, but what's is this nonsense about getting rid of first past the post?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51974177]A lot of people would agree with much of your post, but what's is this nonsense about getting rid of first past the post?[/QUOTE] First Past The Post is current voting system that United States (except Maine then-recently) and United Kingdom used for all elections. And this system is reason why Conservatives/Republicans always won.

[QUOTE=ChadMcGoatMan;51974191]First Past The Post is current voting system that United States (except Maine then-recently) and United Kingdom used for all elections. And this system is reason why Conservatives/Republicans always won.[/QUOTE] he's making a funny. I legit laughed out loud on bus

You're all a bunch of pussies, can't you see that all we need to do to reach prosperous equality is Kill everyone who's in our 1% and claim their wealth for ourselves. It's so simple.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51969803]Pretty sure those who voted leave as a form of protest didn't expect it to win, actually.[/QUOTE] pretty sure you have almost no proof whatsoever of this, actually. [editline]17th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Sobotnik;51973484]they're wrong and not needed because brexit proved that we didn't need any experts[/QUOTE] remember, experts are only right if they agree with your narrative.

My mother voted brexit "because she wanted to see what would happen" That was her entire rational. It was a laugh for her. She makes good money, so it's not going to affect her either way.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51974537]pretty sure you have almost no proof whatsoever of this, actually.[/QUOTE] Farage conceded earlier in the night before all the votes were in IIRC.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51974537]pretty sure you have almost no proof whatsoever of this, actually.[/QUOTE] A protest vote is by definition about showing disagreement with a certain party (case in point, Cameron and the Tories) rather than support for what you're voting for. Not sure what you're asking me to prove here.

[QUOTE=_Axel;51974923]A protest vote is by definition about showing disagreement with a certain party (case in point, Cameron and the Tories) rather than support for what you're voting for. Not sure what you're asking me to prove here.[/QUOTE] I want you to prove your claim that any Brexit votes were protest votes and that the protest voters didn't believe that Brexit would happen. [editline]18th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Lambeth;51974810]Farage conceded earlier in the night before all the votes were in IIRC.[/QUOTE] lol the one person you managed to mention wasn't a protest voter though. [editline]18th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=The Jack;51974734]My mother voted brexit "because she wanted to see what would happen" That was her entire rational. It was a laugh for her. She makes good money, so it's not going to affect her either way.[/QUOTE] So your mother made a stupid decision and you base your opinion that all Brexit voters are stupid on this? These opinions about how people formed their reasons for voting for Brexit are pretty flimsy and complete conjecture to say the least.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51977822]I want you to prove your claim that [b]any[/b] Brexit votes were protest votes and that the protest voters didn't believe that Brexit would happen.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/brexit-offers-lesson-in-the-danger-of-protest-votes-20160626[/url] [QUOTE]Yet it has been a trend on the left in both the UK and the U.S. to suggest that any black eye given to "the establishment," even if it's from a decidedly rightward hook, is a victory for all. The group of voters in the U.S. who have vowed to support Bernie Sanders until November, pledging to vote for him in a write-in campaign, think in similar terms. So flawed a liberal is Hillary Clinton, they say, that even a nightmarish term under a President Trump is preferable, because at least his campaign is also "anti-establishment." Still others think it is precisely Trump's capacity for mayhem and destruction that makes him an asset to the left: His tenure will be so destructive that the people will at last rise up in a glorious revolution in response, and then we'll get real change. But as British socialist David Renton puts it so well, "if the opening to a new situation of political instability has to come about through a big victory for the press, the parties, and the people of the Right, then it is unlikely that the instability which follows will assist the Left." Making one's self a handmaiden to a fundamentally reactionary movement only furthers its ugliest aims. The change we'll get is most certainly not the change envisioned by the likes of Galloway or Stein. The energy for Brexit and Trump is not coming from sober Marxist analyses on neoliberal crises of late capitalism, but from a staunchly pro-capitalist, deeply prejudicial resentment that seeks to scapegoat all for the misery caused by capital. Many UK voters, apparently, were not even well acquainted with what the EU is. The Brexit referendum became a proxy for anger at the Tory government and at wider economic inequality, with blame being displaced onto Brussels and the refugees and immigrants who have become inextricably associated with free movement across Europe's borders. The small number of leftists who jumped on board only aided that, handing the far-right a (hopefully) once-in-a-lifetime victory.[/QUOTE] [url]https://www.businessinsider.com.au/brexit-vote-regret-leave-margin-victory-2016-10?r=UK&IR=T[/url] [QUOTE]It has become a commonplace: The notion that many people who voted “Leave” in the EU referendum now regret their vote because they didn’t think “Leave” would win or they didn’t realise the consequences of leaving the Single Market would be so bad. If you search for “Brexit I didn’t think it would happen” you get dozens of stories about hapless voters who thought they were merely casting a protest vote, not fundamentally altering the economic and constitutional basis of the entire country. Now, a poll from British Election Study, an academic group dedicated to voting trend research, has found that the portion of Leave voters who regret their vote (or “don’t know”) is greater than the total margin of victory for Brexit. The poll was noticed by The Economist: Read more at [url]https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-vote-regret-leave-margin-victory-2016-10#P7udt4u387CLoAzd.99[/url][/QUOTE] [url]https://www.businessinsider.com.au/chart-shows-protest-votes-are-shaping-the-politics-in-europe-2016-9?r=DE&IR=T[/url] [QUOTE]The refugee crisis that has struck Europe is the worst the continent has seen since the Second World War, and with it has come the resurgence of political parties that have not enjoyed this kind of support since 1945. Support for far-right — and to a lesser extent far-left — parties has spiked in recent months as hundreds of thousands of refugees have come to Europe and a huge chunk of the population has once more felt their concerns were ignored or belittled by the ruling political class. Recent terrorist attacks throughout the continent have also added to the feeling of insecurity of many Europeans and the persisting austerity measures following the 2008 financial crisis are increasingly pushing people to seek alternatives to the current major parties. This chart from a Morgan Stanley note on the political risks in Europe highlights how parties on both ends of the political spectrum are becoming increasingly popular throughout the continent. The UK’s Brexit vote is also one of the most potent signs that the public is increasingly dissatisfied with politicians and the current migration crisis. One of the most important issues that drove the British public to vote to leave the European Union was the free-flowing migration from the continent.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html[/url] [QUOTE]Remain voters are voicing their outrage amid claims by some people who voted for a Brexit that they regret their decision. Electoral services workers have reported calls from people asking if they could change their decision after Friday’s result became clear, while some publicly admitted they intended to use a “protest vote” in the belief the UK was certain to remain in the European Union. The anxiety – dubbed “Bregret” – emerged as the value of the pound tumbled and markets crashed, while somefelt betrayed by Nigel Farage’s admission that a Vote Leave poster pledging to spend millions of pounds supposedly given to the EU on the NHS was a “mistake”.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-second-eu-referendum-leave-voters-regret-bregret-choice-in-millions-a7113336.html[/url] [QUOTE]Up to 7 per cent of the people who voted for a Brexit in the EU referendum now regret their choice, new research has found. When the survey’s findings are projected on to last week’s vote, they would cut the Leave share by 1.2 million, almost wiping out the majority that gave Friday's shock result. Research by Opinium found that 3 per cent of those who voted Remain also regretted their choice and that British people are now divided on the priorities in the negotiations ahead.[/QUOTE] Overall, it seems that there were many people who voted for the Brexit because of issues like immigration and notions of being anti-establishment who now regret their vote because of economic and healthcare consequences. In that sense, I don't think those voters realized that the consequences of Brexit would actually happen, like actually leaving the EU and losing access to the subsidies they provide to the economy and healthcare. For many, it is accurate to say that their vote was purely a protest vote in the sense that they only wished to be 'anti-establishment' and lacked sufficient understanding of what the consequences of the vote would actually be.

[QUOTE=geel9;51972563]It's fucking hilarious to see Leavers try to justify arguments in favor of Scotland remaining You can't have it both ways. You started the trend.[/QUOTE] I am a leaver and I have absolutely no qualms about Scotland being Independent if this is what the people want. [editline]18th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Zyler;51977876][url]https://www.businessinsider.com.au/brexit-vote-regret-leave-margin-victory-2016-10?r=UK&IR=T[/url] [url]http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/brexit-offers-lesson-in-the-danger-of-protest-votes-20160626[/url] [url]https://www.businessinsider.com.au/chart-shows-protest-votes-are-shaping-the-politics-in-europe-2016-9?r=DE&IR=T[/url] [url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html[/url] [url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-second-eu-referendum-leave-voters-regret-bregret-choice-in-millions-a7113336.html[/url][/QUOTE] And how successful have polls been exactly? You need to read your own articles, they are a mixture of opinion, outdated polls and conjecture.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51977879]And how successful have polls been exactly? You need to read your own articles, they are a mixture of opinion, outdated polls and conjecture.[/QUOTE] You asked in there were [b]any[/b] brexit votes that were protest votes and whether the protesters didn't believe that Brexit would happen. I answered your question. Unless you think every single individual of the 1.2 million people who responded to both of the polls were lying, it doesn't seem likely though. The other articles exist to explain the mindset of people who voted as anti-establishment, which was established by asking the people themselves. The validity of a poll depends on who conducts it and what polling methods they use to obtain a representative sample size of the population. Are you suggesting that the entire concept of doing polls is unreliable because some polling agencies don't follow a scientific method?

[QUOTE=Zyler;51977902]You asked in there were [b]any[/b] brexit votes that were protest votes and whether the protesters didn't believe that Brexit would happen. I answered your question. Unless you think every single individual of the 1.2 million people who responded to both of the polls were lying, it doesn't seem likely though. The other articles exist to explain the mindset of people who voted as anti-establishment, which was established by asking the people themselves. The validity of a poll depends on who conducts it and what polling methods they use to obtain a representative sample size of the population. Are you suggesting that the entire concept of doing polls is unreliable because some polling agencies don't follow a scientific method?[/QUOTE] No not at all. None of the polls asked the question "did you vote as a protest?" Or "did you vote Brexit thinking that Brexit wouldn't happen?"

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51977999]No not at all. None of the polls asked the question "did you vote as a protest?" Or "did you vote Brexit thinking that Brexit wouldn't happen?"[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Zyler;51977876]For many, it is accurate to say that their vote was purely a protest vote in the sense that they only wished to be 'anti-establishment' and lacked sufficient understanding of what the consequences of the vote would actually be.[/QUOTE] This is exactly what axel refered to in his post: [QUOTE=_Axel;51974923]A protest vote is by definition about showing disagreement with a certain party (case in point, Cameron and the Tories) rather than support for what you're voting for. Not sure what you're asking me to prove here.[/QUOTE] Showing disagreement, i.e. anti-establishment strategic voting is what drove many people to vote for Brexit without realizing what the consequences would be.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51977879]I am a leaver and I have absolutely no qualms about Scotland being Independent if this is what the people want. [editline]18th March 2017[/editline] And how successful have polls been exactly? You need to read your own articles, they are a mixture of opinion, outdated polls and conjecture.[/QUOTE] So... Anecdotes are invalid (we agree on this) Then polls are invalid? Do you mean bad polls? Please explain why these are bad polls. They're less than a year old so the "outdated" just doesn't stick.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51978009]So... Anecdotes are invalid (we agree on this) Then polls are invalid? Do you mean bad polls? Please explain why these are bad polls. They're less than a year old so the "outdated" just doesn't stick.[/QUOTE] I seriously doubt that UK bohemian was able to read every single article within the minute between when I posted those links and he posted a reply. He likely just assumed that the articles were "a mixture of opinion, outdated polls and conjecture" without reading them.

[QUOTE=Zyler;51978019]I seriously doubt that UK bohemian was able to read every single article within the minute between when I posted those links and he posted a reply. He likely just assumed that the articles were "a mixture of opinion, outdated polls and conjecture" without reading them.[/QUOTE] Yeah I realised it was him after I posted. Shouldn't have bothered

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51978009]So... Anecdotes are invalid (we agree on this) Then polls are invalid? Do you mean bad polls? Please explain why these are bad polls. They're less than a year old so the "outdated" just doesn't stick.[/QUOTE] The polls show how folks "felt" 3 or 4 months after the Brexit result. So if these people can change their minds in 3 or 4 months how do they feel now? If polls are to be believed we wouldn't have Brexit or Trump. [editline]18th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Zyler;51978019]I seriously doubt that UK bohemian was able to read every single article within the minute between when I posted those links and he posted a reply. He likely just assumed that the articles were "a mixture of opinion, outdated polls and conjecture" without reading them.[/QUOTE] You posted 5 links that weren't specifically relevant to what we were talking after I asked the question, quicker than I responded so I very much doubt that you read your own links as much as I did. [editline]18th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51978036]Yeah I realised it was him after I posted. Shouldn't have bothered[/QUOTE] Lol, are you a slow reader?

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51978041]The polls show how folks "felt" 3 or 4 months after the Brexit result. So if these people can change their minds in 3 or 4 months how do they feel now? If polls are to be believed we wouldn't have Brexit or Trump. ?[/QUOTE] just because you don't understand how polls or statistical science works doesn't mean that polls and statistical science don't work but i'm glad to see the scrabble to desperately fight off actual science and thought is something that hasn't been lost by leave, even after brexit.

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51978041]The polls show how folks "felt" 3 or 4 months after the Brexit result. So if these people can change their minds in 3 or 4 months how do they feel now? If polls are to be believed we wouldn't have Brexit or Trump.[/QUOTE] So what you're seriously arguing is that every single one of those who said they didn't expect nor want leave to win when they were voting for it have now changed their minds? How does your moving goalposts invalidate that we showed to you that people who voted as a form of protest [I]do[/I] exist? Also you didn't point out what in those polls' methodology is flawed. Simply saying "well polls were wrong a few times so they must always be wrong" is just stupid. If polls aren't receivable evidence and anecdotes aren't receivable evidence (which they actually should considering you asked for [I]any[/I] such people), then what the fuck is? Oh, I know. Polls and anecdotes that support your side. Got it.

(also polls weren't wrong about brexit, they had leave and remain nearly neck and neck, with them centralizing to the near 50-50 position right at the time of the vote [url]https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/[/url])

[QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51978041]You posted 5 links that weren't specifically relevant to what we were talking after I asked the question, quicker than I responded so I very much doubt that you read your own links as much as I did.[/QUOTE] Yes I did read them, that's how I posted the quotes below each article with a summary of the relevant bits. I posted my post about 15 minutes after your original post, you replied 1 minute after that and couldn't have possibly read them all in that time. How did you know the articles weren't relevant if you didn't read them? [editline]18th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51978041]The polls show how folks "felt" 3 or 4 months after the Brexit result. So if these people can change their minds in 3 or 4 months how do they feel now? If polls are to be believed we wouldn't have Brexit or Trump[/QUOTE] Firstly, why would they change their views in the time between the polls were made and now? They changed their views after the brexit vote because the brexit vote actually happened and they learned what the consequences would be. People change their views as a result of events that happen, not just because an arbitrary amount of time passes. Secondly, are you suggesting that every single one of those people have changed their minds in the last 3 or 4 months? It's possible some have. But it's highly unlikely that they all have. Thirdly, how does the point about people changing their minds detract from the argument that people did in fact vote for Brexit as a protest vote? If they changed their mind afterwards that doesn't mean that they didn't vote for that particular reason to begin with. [editline]18th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=UK Bohemian;51978041] Lol, are you a slow reader?[/QUOTE] Did you miss the actual meaning of his post, where he says he shouldn't have bothered arguing when he realized it was you, presumably because he knows you're a disingenuous poster? Do you consider how you come across to other people? Or whether your way of arguing is disingenuous? Do you want to learn if you're wrong about something and become better informed or do you just want to "win the argument" for the sake of it?

[QUOTE=Zyler;51978102]Yes I did read them, that's how I posted the quotes below each article with a summary of the relevant bits. I posted my post about 15 minutes after your original post, you replied 1 minute after that and couldn't have possibly read them all in that time. How did you know the articles weren't relevant if you didn't read them? [editline]18th March 2017[/editline] Firstly, why would they change their views in the time between the polls were made and now? They changed their views after the brexit vote because the brexit vote actually happened and they learned what the consequences would be. People change their views as a result of events that happen, not just because an arbitrary amount of time passes. Secondly, are you suggesting that every single one of those people have changed their minds in the last 3 or 4 months? It's possible some have. But it's highly unlikely that they all have. Thirdly, how does the point about people changing their minds detract from the argument that people did in fact vote for Brexit as a protest vote? If they changed their mind afterwards that doesn't mean that they didn't vote for that particular reason to begin with. [editline]18th March 2017[/editline] Did you miss the actual meaning of his post, where he says he shouldn't have bothered arguing when he realized it was you, presumably because he knows you're a disingenuous poster? Do you consider how you come across to other people? Or whether your way of arguing is disingenuous? Do you want to learn if you're wrong about something and become better informed or do you just want to "win the argument" for the sake of it?[/QUOTE] What consequences? We haven't even left yet! I read the links, the independent is as biased as the daily mail, the rolling stones is conjecture and one of the Australian business links was not even relevant to the Brexit. The links were generalising at best and didn't prove what I asked. How amI going to learn anything from people who constantly repeat the same rhetoric about 17 million people being fucktards. I understand people's concerns even though I don't necessarily agree, but this constant bullshit rhetoric is just tiresome. I'm under no illusion that there might be some repercussions from leaving Europe but to be honest if unlike most of the shit posters here you have a brain and a work ethic there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't be able to make a decent living now or in the future. This place is full of keyboard warriors posting links that have absolutely no relevance to 90% of the population. Every thread about the UK is apocalyptic bullshit. If people used as much energy making something of their lives as they do talking shit here they would be doing well, like me 😁