• Team Trump: expect Trump to attack Mueller more directly
    105 replies, posted
We are thinking rationally. We are thinking this through to its conclusion. If you allow Trump to get away with firing the special prosecutor you are exactly in the 'shit going south and we end in a worse situation' field.
Yes, it's frightening. But you're literally saying "we should let the rule of law collapse because it would be scary to do otherwise". You're a lazy person who's letting fear consume them. I'm sure all of our forefathers are so proud of us for being afraid to even have the backbone to defend our own fucking democracies.
Protests don't have to become violent. If we don't peacefully protest now, while we still can, we will eventually find that our ability to effect change in a peaceful manner is nowhere to be found. Nobody wants violence. But if our current government refuses to hold itself accountable to the people, and peaceful protest doesn't work, what else is left?
Yeah, they can get him impeached and stop the damage he's doing
Nobody is going to block entrances to hospitals. The vast majority of MoveOn protests planned are focused around government buildings; courts, capitol buildings, etc. Nobody wants to shut down hospitals.
Every time I read stuff like this, I just have to say Go look at a history book dude. Don't be ignorant. Getting people upset and getting in their way is the only way things change. Apathy is a monster we all carry around, and we have to overcome it. You need to learn more about history, how these events REALLY happened, really played out, the real consequences and after effects. Not what you have now. Ignorance and naiveity. You have to disrupt people, and you have to do so in a non violent way. This is how protests work. Please just read some history on protests in America.
Americans have four boxes by which to speak to the power of their government. The first is the soap box - our political demands to those above us on threat that we would vote them out of office if they do not ensure our needs are met. The second is the ballot box - through which our demands, if not heard, are realized every couple of years. It is very slow, it is not meant to instantly react to bad actors, and is the foundation of our government. The third is the jury box - through which we haul those above us to account for refusing to abide to either our soap box or our ballot box, or who refuse to endorse and be bound by the law - as we all hold each other to as a society. The fourth is the ammo box - the box of last resort. The box that, if all other boxes are taken from you, is the only box left to you.
I agree, and i'm not saying we should sit down and take it either. I just don't like conflict, peaceful or not. But I realize change isn't always a stable road and things happen.
It is better to have some fairly bloodless and painless conflict now than a world of carnage, tears, and horrors from which we may never recover later.
Yeah, it's scary dude. The fact that we're in this situation is awful. I, personally, would be extremely relieved if this entire situation could be resolved without a single iota of effort on my part. Another way to look at this is that any damage caused by peaceful protests is, arguably, the fault of those who caused the protest to be necessary. (Assuming the protest itself is legitimate and necessary). Obviously if someone goes to a protest and gets in a fight with someone that's not really Trump's fault, but the fact that a city "shut down" due to a peaceful protest that is only necessary because Trump is actively taking measures to not be held accountable for his crimes is on Trump. Trump is the only reason a protest would be necessary at all. That's on him.
For all we know, this is what Trump and by extension, Putin/Russia, wants. He's succeeded so far in dividing the country, maybe a real internal conflict is the end game.
So what you're saying is we have to let him dismantle the rule of law, cast himself well above the laws of the land, put himself up as a dictator, or we are playing into his hands? Do you not see how EITHER WAY you get to be a lazy fearful person in this situation? You're trying to justify you're own desire to not be involved. Be honest, don't be involved if you don't care. But don't try and sell this shit to anyone. No one sensible will buy it.
Riddle me this. If you want to harm a senator without resorting to physical violence: How do you harm them? They have a state which has a government that they are expected to run well, an economy which fuels that government, and support from political and economic allies that bolsters them. Therefore - to harm them - you must strike specifically at those things to show them that it is only because we permit them to have those things that they have them to begin with. Unfortunately, our fellow statesmen are found in all of those places. That is by design - because the power and support of a senator comes from the nation, state, and people beside them. Thereby it is inevitable that you will have to bar your fellow countrymen from easy passage, that you would disrupt the ability of the local government to function, and that you would demand those who support that person to cease doing so - because that is what is required to send a message to a man whose only concern is power. If you can't agree with that you might as well get settled with yourself that you do not want control over your life. You should be getting angry because anger is the enemy of apathy; if you get annoyed, great, that is our job -- to show you exactly who is responsible for your annoyance and hopefully recruit you to the cause at the same time.
Calm down dude, I was just making a statement, i'm not saying anything like that. Take a chill pill.
>For all we know, this is what Trump and by extension, Putin/Russia, wants. He's succeeded so far in dividing the country, maybe a real internal conflict is the end game. Then what, specifically, are you saying?
This is just blatant concern trolling. Sorry, but those of us who have been following this story know all too well that this administration is fielding attitudes and ideas that are much more destructive and disruptive to our nation than any protest could possibly be. Whatever your and Cigarettes' reasoning is, discouraging mass protest in the face of all that's happened is at best irresponsibly naive, at worst malicious and morally reprehensible, and altogether objectively wrong. You will convince literally no one to sell out the future and livelihood of themselves, their families, their friends, their colleagues, and their countrymen in the interest of not making a fuss.
That, maybe, just maybe, Putin wants the US to be thrown into chaos, more than it already is. A heartless fuckhead like Trump is the perfect puppet to achieve that.
Putin's wants are irrelevant to our need for the rule of law to be in constant, absolute, effect. If that is what Putin has engineered so be it - then we would agree on that because it is absolutely necessary for a functional and accountable government and nation.
I'm not mad, angry, or upset. I'm just pointing out absolutely dysfunctional logic.
test
Why is "Protesting" the line? Riots and protests aren't the same. I've lived through riots. They're dangerous mobs out to do nothing but destroy. Yes, a protest can be usurped by bad actors, yes bad things can happen, but protesting, standing up for your rights is an essential component of the process.
Surgery that has a chance of death is far preferable to ensured death in much the same way that protests may generate riots - but are nonetheless a necessity in times where the actual heart of our democracy is at stake - and are far preferable to doing nothing and allowing your voice to be squashed entirely.
I just don't want to see people getting hurt, but if it comes down to it, Trump and his cronies should all be held accountable. Sorry if my pacifist nature rubs you all the wrong way, it wasn't my intention to cause an argument.
People are already getting hurt. They will be hurt even more if for even one day Trump is allowed to keep his seat without impeachment in the House and Senate floors after firing the Special Counsel.
What's the point of pacificism if you're just going to let yourself get trampled over? I'm a pacificst in day to day life because I choose to avoid conflicts where avoidable, I choose to resort to strong language rather than violence, and I choose to stand my ground when told to move. But I'm still a pacificist. Being a pacificist isn't being weak. It's knowing when you need to be active.
Lets hope it doesn't come to that and Mueller can perform his duties as intended.
Hope is one thing. Being prepared is another. You may expect the best all you like, and I endorse this heavily as optimism is a grand and good thing to forever hold close to your heart. However, you should always be prepared for the worst.
You just hit backspace to clear the quote box. On topic: the entire reason we’re here is because too many people didn’t take this threat seriously and decided it was too much trouble to challenge Trump and his followers. By ignoring the problem and hoping it would go away, me made it significantly worse. Two years later, we are in the midst of historic corruption, partisan polarization, and a potential constitutional crisis. Very soon, we will be unable to ignore the problem any longer—and by that time it may be too late. The longer we put off what’s necessary—mass protests, a firestorm of progressive political activism unlike anything we’ve ever seen—the harder it will be to fix this. It may even be impossible.
I tried backspacing over it but it just unfocuses the reply box. I'll remove it later (and this post) when I'm at home, I just didn't want to post something so weird with no expansion.
We MUST STAND UP for our freedom, or we WILL BE WALKED UPON. don't forget your worth, my friends.
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