US and European countries announce mass expulsions of Russian diplomats
58 replies, posted
That's okay, he's gonna keep getting notifications with how newpunch is for each person quoting his blind loyalty to the tsar
Unless one is getting some actual considerable attention within Russia with one's Internet smacktalking, I doubt they'd give a shit. Imo their internet censorship doesn't seem anywhere near as efficient or organized as China's.
Yeah, in the scope of history it's ironic that all it took for neoconservatives and russian government moguls to see eye to eye was ditching the principles of communism, while keeping all the pervasive deep state scheming and murder. Its a small world.
As long as you're "Russian political strongman" and not "Chairman of the communist party" is all a-ok, no evil empire here.
Even that would probably hit Russia harder than any individual country. The thing Russia could do to strike back hardest would be to stop selling natural gas to all those nations that heavily rely on it but even though that would affect those nations disproportionately compared to Russia, it would still hurt Russia more in the long run. They would just need to scramble to find alternative sources of natural gas and when that happens Russia would no longer even have a market for it.
Russia essentially has shat on the sovereignty of western nations, especially the US and UK, so the response is honestly expected, especially after killing multiple people on UK soil.
I would usually agree, but when I look at the current US leader's apprehension in criticising Russia, I almost thought they'd do nothing about it.
And now Kremlin spins propaganda about "evil US and their European cronies being dicks and we should hit them back because we totally won't suffer from that" and Russians become more hateful of the West.
IMO this situation required a much more subtle approach, because you have to realize that Russian propaganda is way too strong here and any wrong move will only escalate things.
Also the whole tweets from confirmed Russian soldiers having exif data from Ukraine while in active duty gear and shit
I'm sorry, but while I agree that the Kremlin will probably spin it in some favorable way for them, you can't possibly tell me that the average Russian person is so dumb they can't figure out why nearly every other country is sending diplomats back, things like that aren't done "just because". I think sanctioning Russia heavily or stopping trade would be great, because sure, while it'd be bad for the average citizen, it's probably the only way the country will feel the consequences.
That's the entire point. Propaganda is a more powerful thing than you think. Don't underestimate it like that.
Oh, I can and I will tell you exactly that. Russian propaganda is doing some voodoo magic with people here.
I'm really sorry to hear. Maybe it's just me that I've grown up being completely untrusting of authority figures. I have heard "don't do x, the government says it's bad" as a justification way too much without much explanation as to why, I really hope your country can snap out of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6rSljTwdU
Russia strikes back (at the US anyway)
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-03-29/lavrov-says-russia-to-expel-60-u-s-diplomats-close-u-s-consulate-in-st-petersburg?__twitter_impression=true
Oh no, not our diplomats, whatever shall we do without access to Russian Oil and Natural Gas?
I mean, you know, aside from mine our own.
I am very upset with most (but perhaps not all) powerful Republicans right now. It's hard to find a person around me who isn't. But this sentiment isn't helping anybody. We can't hold Republicans responsible for the lies that their shitty powerful ideological elite has propagated. Republicans are Americans, and they are voters, and we have to get along with them if we're going to have a free and peaceful society.
Those diplomats are sometimes spies (diplomatic immunity comes in handy when caught), open secret bout international diplomacy. They generally get expelled when stuff like this happens, would be more concerned if they expelled e.g. the ambassador.
I'm somewhat ashamed that my country is willing to expel russian diplomats and run along with the EU. Especially considering that Luxembourg always appeals to EU countries having to stick together to be strong.
I'm familiar this is generally what happens, but I was questioning the wisdom of what generally happens. We need to encourage dialogue rather than expelling diplomats. We aren't going to train Russia like an animal through negative re-enforcement, that will just give Putin more popularity with Russians who want to 'break free of our control'.
The only thing you're going to train Russia to do if we refuse to sanction/remove diplomats/close embassies etc. is that we're not willing to do anything. "Positive reinforcement" does not work when that reinforcement only allows the negative actor in question to operate more brazenly and openly.
We do not tell murderers at their trial 'well if you promise to work really hard at making yourself a better person we'll let you go without any punishment or sentencing' because you're trusting them to self-correct. Russia had opportunity to self-correct; it instead more or less stated 'and what are you going to do about it?' - which is a challenge that, if not met, means our answer is 'nothing'. If the answer is 'nothing' then you can have all the 'dialogue' you like - it will be nothing but empty promises and blowing hot air up your arse.
Russia's not a murderer, Russia is an entire nation. Russia is not Vladimir Putin, or their government. Sanctions punish the people of a nation and serve to boost the popularity of the "proud and brave politician who stood up to those trying to control us". It's not all brainwashing, part of it is a natural response. When you push on humanity, humanity pushes back.
We need to work on stopping Russia from doing the bad things that Russia is doing, not punishing ordinary Russians and shutting down dialogue. My first thought would be to increase our cybersecurity efforts and budget (focus on stopping the Russians from getting our data, not getting our data yourselves, okay NSA?)
But also, we need to have a dialogue with them. We have a lot to learn from each other. We can learn from them why they feel the need to engage in dishonesty in our relationship, and they can learn from us that there is a different road we can take, one that doesn't involve escalation, but instead coming up with the best solution for both of us. War between our countries is a terrible outcome for both, and thus risking it is objectively bad for both countries and the world.
Oh, I can resolve that entire last paragraph for you right here and now.
"Why are you lying Russia?" "Because you fall for it."
"Do you want to learn from us, Russia?" "Nyet."
"Will you de-escalate?" "Sure, comrade. But first, why don't you pull out your forces from these neighboring countries as a 'show of good faith'?"
If Russia did not want war, Russia would not engage in actions such as attempting to seize control over our infrastructure and meddling with our elections and leadership through bribes and kompromat.
We need to work on stopping Russia from doing the bad things that Russia is doing, not punishing ordinary Russians and shutting down dialogue.
Are the 'ordinary Russians' the ones who are attacking the US? No. The state of Russia is - and so engaging in dialogue with 'ordinary Russians' does nothing. I can't talk to Bob from Alabama and expect the US to withdraw its forces from my country - because Bob from Alabama is not a part of the US government and has no authority or say over those things. His representatives do, sure, but then why am I talking to him instead of them? Am I expecting to sit on my hands for several years for Bob from Alabama -- who by all signs is in full enthusiastic support of his government and his government-run media -- to change his government to assist me? Of course not.
Russia's not a murderer, Russia is an entire nation
And when we go to war, we do not go to war against its people - we go to war against its government - as to do otherwise would be less war and more genocide. It is inevitable that we therefore must attack its people until its government cedes power or seeks peace - as national governments are defended by people and staffed by people.
Are you saying that if Trump, without any advisorial assistance and in complete singular authority -- from the idea to the launch of the missile -- struck Kim Jong Un's palace with the intent to kill him that North Korea would only declare war on Donald Trump? Of course not. To argue otherwise is insanity - and demonstrable with the Iraq/Iran wars where we went after far more than the terrorist groups we believed responsible for the attack on our nation - but their government in principal and firstly and chiefly their government.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.