• Israel Sniper Killed Voluteer Female Medic, 100 Protesters Wounded
    322 replies, posted
The definition of genocide, according to the UN: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: Killing members of the group; Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. More on the definition of genocide, from the BBC. The BBC also has this to say on the history of genocide: Some say there was only one genocide in the last century: the Holocaust. However, others say there have been at least three genocides under the 1948 UN convention: The mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks between 1915-1920, an accusation that the Turks deny The Holocaust, during which more than six million Jews were killed Rwanda, where an estimated 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus died in the 1994 genocide In Bosnia, the 1995 massacre at Srebrenica has been ruled to be genocide by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY). And others give a long list of what they consider cases of genocide, including the Soviet man-made famine of Ukraine (1932-33), the Indonesian invasion of East Timor (1975), and the Khmer Rouge killings in Cambodia in the 1970s. The International Criminal Court in 2010 issued an arrest warrant for the President of Sudan, Omar al-Bashir, on genocide charges. You can find a more comprehensive list on wikipedia, of course. You may notice there's one event missing from both the above lists. Care to guess which one that is?
I don't think the issue people are concerned with here is 'genocide' or 'not genocide'. What's riling up people are the brutish way Israel is handling this, disproportionate, unapologetic, and unjustified. Unfitting of a 'developed country' they called themselves. And people had good reason to think like that. The death toll was the highest daily casualty count in Gaza since 2014. Israeli Defense Minister Avigdor Liberman dismissed calls at the United Nations and in Israel for an independent inquiry into action. He warned that the army “can respond more harshly next time” and would not “hesitate to use everything we have.” That was back in March. Which means the medic and non-medic killing spree were not an accident, they are deliberate. They intend to show people around the world who's boss, and nobody can do anything to them despite their wrongdoing. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-31/palestinians-seek-protection-as-israel-blasts-terrorist-march
I'm replying specifically to goetse, whose last posts most definitely are concerned with "genocide".
You're simply grossly underestimating the importance of the relationship. I'm not saying Israel is economically reliant on the US. I'm saying Israel would not be the regional powerhouse that it is without American support. Are you telling me that if we threatened to remove our foreign aid, Israel would, at the drop of a hat, give up billions of dollars of support just like that out of spite? They're certainly welcome to do that, but that would hurt them far more than it hurts us. If you know what the "bigger picture" is, then please elaborate. What justifies Israel's hamfisted tactics, and why shouldn't we be condemning them?
How blind / brainwashed do you have to be to not see the mass killing of unharmed, non-combatant Palestinian civilians? This is ridiculously genocide denial and nothing else.
God we need a brain genius rating.
How would you handle this situation? I'm not saying this shooting was justified, in fact i condemn it. weather it was a harsh mistake or an act by a total maniac i'm 100% sure this incident is investigated fully by Military Police. The army has many strict rules when it comes to riot control or arresting fugitives. i know some people IRL who commited vile acts during their service and until today are either investigated even after being discharged 10 years ago or with a criminal record that carries with them for life. Now please explain to me how would you handle this situation, and dont give me that "give them back their land" horseshit. Focus on the present: water cannons do jack shit against big crowds, rubber bullets are lethal as fuck and shooting protestors in the leg is also lethal. Give me a full explaination on how to handle the situation with less fatalities.
You do know how Timezones work right? Interesting.
two things: how can you tell hamas is telling the truth why are even some innocent people being killed at all for protesting Telling people to stay behind the line is idiotic reason to shoot unarmed protestors. Cities have riots too and get away with almost zero deaths, and thats when people are burning cars or throwing Molotovs. There's video proof of Israeli soldiers harassing and threatening medics trying to pull unconscious people away to safety, with no proof of said people being shot or beaten actually being terrorists. This entire ordeal is Israel's fault for expanding their territories and allowing hamas gain fervor for their movement. Honestly if another nation was forcibly removing me from my land and beating people I know, I'd be protesting too.
Okay, once again: Israel isn't expanding it's territories or removing people from their land in Gaza. Israel unilaterally retreated from the entire Gaza strip and removed all Jewish settlements there. Israel and Egypt are however blockading the Gaza strip ever since Hamas violently took over the strip from the Palestinian Authority ans started attacking Israel from there.
Palestinians released martyr photos of those killed, one of those is the Canadian doctor's friend that we have pictures of. Also, Hamas doesn't generally lie about martyrs. What you mention about their land being taken away, that's invalid, Gaza is completely controlled by Palestinians. You're confusing West Bank with gaza and the medic videos you are citing are from the West Bank since no israeli soldiers are crossing into Gaza now.
would people stop confusing the west bank and gaza jesus it's like you people forget the answers you've been given the last thread and then instantly go back to the default rhetoric of "you expanded into their lands" gaza was given to full Palestinian control and unlike the west bank it was violently taken over by a radical islamist organization after a bloody civil war. The Palestinian Authority and Hamas are not the same, they hate each others guts.
The request for me to explain in full detail befitting of an army personnel, as I understood it, is a trap, because we all know non-army layman person such as myslef would not be able to explain it systematically. But, for starters, Israel should have higher level of tolerance, that is, not too trigger happy with their live bullet. Baton charges, blunt forces, net guns, are all proven effective. Even rubber bullets, not as lethal. But no, Israel prefers to handle this like Tiananmen Square protests of 1989,  "use any means" method, according to their version of protocol. Which is shooting live bullets at medics because other methods are 'too lethal' Looks like you also tried to avoid the prospect of discussing 'give back their land', because most likely, you know yourselves that you're taking their land in an ill way. That saves us some trouble.
"Shooting medics is okay because Hamas."
Devil's Advocate and I most certainly don't like this situation either While not specific to Hamas, there has been at least a few cases of terrorists disguising themselves as medical personnel. It's a pretty big quagmire when you're fighting an enemy that doesn't intend to play by the rules.
Except its the total actions of the israelis that have pissed off Palestinians. If russia was chomping down on california, americans in new york would still be wanting to fight them. Its not that hard to understand why they become radicalized when israel keeps burning bridges to innocent people. Like now with shooting protestors or fucking medics. Riots are riots, both have non lethal ways to quell the crowd without resorting to gunning down people. Majority of these protestors are rightfully pissed at Israel, just because a portion are rickheads, doesnt mean israel suddenly has the right to gun down anyone they feel is a threat.
how hard is it to understand? Israel is not taking any of the land from Palestinians in Gaza, Gaza is fully run + administrated by Palestinians! you mention baton charges, blunt force, net guns, that all require people on the Israeli side to be inside Gaza, no sane commander would send his soldiers there by themselves, even with fire support from the israel side. It'll make the Ramallah Lynching look like nothing. Rubber bullets still kill and cause damage, plus their maximum range is 100 meters. The buffer zone is 300 meters. A sniper with a .22 that's trained to shoot protesters in the leg can do the same nonlethal task as rubber bullets over a greater distance. you treat this like israelis cum over the thought of killing palestinians, that is not the case at all, israel wants to minimize civilian casualties as much as possible.
Okay, explain to me why medics fucking keep being shot then, if you have such high faith in their . So far, we have seen no justification for any of the three that were shot. (Yes, that includes the Hamas medic, who according to the Canadian medic was not engaged in combat and was treating people, including the Canadian.) It is up to the entity that uses deadly force to justify its use and its appropriateness. So far, Israel's government has done none of this, and has even declined a request for the undertaking an independent investigation. This, combined with the government's extremely hostile rhetoric towards Palestinians, heavily damages any credence to the good faith of their internal investigation. Until Israel justifies these shootings with tangible evidence, they are to be considered unjustified.
concern troll? lmao, god forbid people give a shit that people are being gunned down by a first world nation and want the said nation to be held accountable. This is the second time a medic has been shot multiple times by Israeli soldiers. How about you fucking use your ultimate fucking wisdom to understand gunning down and harassing civilians is a horrible thing when there's lists upon lists of nonlethal options to veer people away. Like how hard is it to understand your country is fucked when they make a buffer zone that only lethal options are the viable way to enforce it. If Israel gave a shit about civilians not dying, they sure as hell would help people who were wounded or shot instead of harassing and threatening the medics who are trying to cart them to safety. Its not a fucking "skirmish" if one side has rifles and snipers and the other has rocks and bottles. It would be like saying it was a skirmish with the Nisour Square massacre Blackwater caused.
Okay, so tell me a method to get people away from the buffer zone non lethally that hasnt been tried. Tear gas has been tried, rubber bullets are not viable, water cannons are not viable, sending in riot police is not viable. The buffer zone is reactive to what Hamas has done, when Israel withdrew from Gaza, none of this was needed, it was all implemented in reaction to Hamas actions. If Hamas doesn't want medics to get shot, dont dress up Hamas operatives in medic outfits like with that friend of that canadian doctor's. Hamas has rifles, they've been shooting back at Israelis and hiding in crowds of protesters. There's a reason why most of the people killed in the protests are part of the al-Qassam Brigades. I called you a concern troll because you obviously have no idea of the nuances of the situation and just want to judge from your high horse. Look at it from the Israeli POV instead of crying about "poor innocents" killed when the vast majority of the people killed were not innocent at all. For example, the canadian doctor who was shot was right next to an active captain in Hamas. The doctor tries to portray the hamas captain who was killed as innocent but the fact remains that he was an active member of a terrorist group: https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/58149/2a3abcc2-c6a8-4814-a14b-dff7b9699bf5/image.png https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/58149/531b0290-1f9e-44f7-96c0-4f057dd43cec/image.png What is a captain in Hamas doing in a paramedic outfit?
I can throw more propaganda too Svinnik https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/status/996427205944184832 Wow, crippled people are now weapons of terror, same with children and rope! A picture of a Canadian doctor, who was backed by his peers, happened to be in a shot with a random hamas captain doesn't mean hes part of hamas. You are justifying medics being slaughtered just because one agent took a pic of being in a uniform. Congrats, you played yourself, and allowed hamas to gain more fervor by gunning down medics by accusing them to be terrorists. How about you show me proof that all those medics being harassed were part of hamas, better yet, Israeli medics running out in the middle to pick up bodies/people. Also, i'm telling you there's lists of crowd control to handle the situation by creating a buffer zone that isn't the size of 3 football fields. There's an underlying problem why these things do not work. And because you can't see how obvious it is, its the fucking ridiculous buffer zone. Want my and other nation's POV? Israel is purposely setting up a kill zone to justify not using non lethal weapons against protesters they really don't give a shit about. This is evident with the 300M buffer zone, harassing any unarmed medics trying to retrieve bodies, shooting medics who are from other nations, Justifying the death of a Canadian medic over one picture with no other evidence, and people like you acting like the side with the smoking gun who's the victim. When IDF is posting shit like above, I have an extreme doubt they really do care about the other side at all.
So then what is the solution? Keep the citizens of Gaza in an indefinite holding pattern forever while things in the Strip just get worse for all the people who live there? I genuinely don't know what people want to happen to those people. Yes, hamas is in charge, and yes, hamas is a group of terrorists and I think that's terrible. But as you describe it sounds like a powder keg ready to blow, under great pressure with the only option that anyone has in regards to the situation is "Lets see how bad it actually gets".
Israel's solution is to keep on shooting unarmed Palestinians
the canadian medic is still alive, the Hamas captain is dead. you talk about there not being a need for a buffer zone, this buffer zone is needed. People still get through with weapons. https://twitter.com/ajmubasher/status/992503238002925568? These Palestinians crossed into Israel with meat cleavers and chanting Khaybar Khaybar, a song about Muhammad's killing the Jews of Medina. Just today, the IDF killed a man who was trying to break the border fence with an axe. https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/gaza-news/IDF-Israeli-troops-kill-Gaza-man-armed-with-axe-559120 The Palestinians even managed to plant an IED on the fence. https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/58149/e6919118-3fbe-4fb8-b746-1788a42713a7/image.png https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkhXV3RnZhE This is all without allowing the palestinians to get close to the border and trying to actively deter them. Imagine what might happen if the Palestinians are allowed to go straight up to the border.
Israel is too good at protecting their borders. People keep forgetting what these "protestors" were doing before they put up these harsh barriers and rules.
Or, maybe the deliberately perceived convolutions, are just an excuses for inaction. Common political excuses. I should know, because in my field, people used it daily. Can't get into details though.
good article on israel's plans in regards to gaza Mowing the Grass and Taking Out the Trash – Foreign Policy https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Mowing-the-grass-in-Gaza-368516
I don't know they seem pretty crap at it judging from Svinnik's evidence that a few blokes with bolt cutters can apparently get through multiple times. Maybe they should spend less time shooting nurses and children and more time actually patrolling the border fence.
Tens of thousands of Palestinians are involved in this, the vast majority of which have done nonviolent protests and demonstrations. The Israeli government has been consistently condemned by Amnesty International and other human rights groups for using live ammunition against unarmed protesters. Stop trying to paint these people as all Hamas agents. It's grossly incorrect and it's an abhorrent way to justify the slaughter of innocent people.
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