Israel Sniper Killed Voluteer Female Medic, 100 Protesters Wounded
322 replies, posted
Who are you responding to? I literally said the anger borne of Israel's actions is justified, and that if you really do disagree with what they do and really do care for a realistic resolution of the conflict (as opposed to just throwing self-righteous statements and judgement) you should pinpoint exactly who is to blame for what and try to find out what actually drives these policies in the first place (and thus constructing a robust argument against them while additionally offering an alternative solution to what gives rise to them) so as to come up with condemnations that cannot be as easily dismissed like "oh its ok guys israel is just committing genocide ;)". I hope you understand that people who disagree with this narrative might have first-hand experiences that go against this notion, me included (though of which I really shouldn't speak), and if you have actual conclusive proof that the entirety of the political entity that is the ruling government of Israel seeks the destruction of the Palestinian people, I would like to hear it because that's pretty big if true.
All I ask is to properly condemn the parties to blame here instead of fueling a narrative of some monolithic actor named Israel, which is funnily the very narrative employed by the Israeli populist right ("They're against Israel and all of you, not just us, so you shouldn't trust their lies!") and groups like Hamas ("Israel cannot be redeemed, it is rotten to the core and no change in leadership can save it - it must be destroyed by any means necessary!"). If this does not bother you at all, carry on as you will. All I ask is for politically effective outrage that will actually get shit to change, as opposed to whatever you are doing here.
Do you not see why a person such as myself might be a bit skeptical of this grand conspiracy of extermination that somehow eluded me in all my life in this country and service in one of its most active and strategically important of military bases? Are you perhaps suggesting I'm sufficiently blind and brainwashed to somehow miss any of this?
I don't understand why you have to answer with such childish malice and attribute things I quite literally did not say neither here nor in any post I've ever made on this forum. It really discourages me from further responding to you in the collected tone and elaboration as I have so far. I don't want to call your response shitposting but you're really toeing the line here.
Shooting a leg can be a great way to incapacitate someone without killing them IF you get them treated by a doctor immediately after. If you don't, then you might as well shoot at the chest.
cant wait to hopefully see israel collapse in my life time
Wow, can't you just shut up already and accept that we're all trying to genocide the Palestinians here?
All that evidence of the 'peaceful' protest where they're actively trying to breach the border and fly Molotov kites into Israel and plant ied near the border disguised as wire cutters is all nonsense anyway.
Also, have you to stopped to think that you're actually a really bad person btw?
I find this hard to believe. AFAIK no force, either military or domestic emphasizes leg shots as doctrine I'm not not even sure its possible to put such a doctrine into practice, especially at the ranges we are talking about here, even with fantastic marksmen.
Plus what others said about why bother wounding people if you are going to snipe the medics who come to treat them.
Right, don't shoot every medic. Just shoot everyone who is wearing a medic uniform within however many hundred meters of a border fence.
Not every protester is a Hamas agent but "there are enough Hamas agents and Hamas sympathisers to be relevant". It feels like you are playing word games here, saying that you understand that calling every protester a Hamas agent but giving the IDF leeway to shoot to kill anyway because the chances are sufficiently high.
Likewise?
No offense, but how does Israel influence any country on earth except it's direct neighbours and the US?
Insidiously.
I was told by a sniper instructor from the IDF that the .22 is used to kneecap the leaders of Palestinian protesters while she was showing my class the sniper rifles that the IDF uses, I trust what she says because it's literally her job.
And if you understand basic human anatomy you'd know the femoral artery is locaked inches away from the kneecap or leg. One of the biggest killers in the army is a femoral rupture, since bleedout occurs in 1-5 minutes due to little locations to apply a tourniquet. Hence why cops and the army are told leg shots can be just as deadly as center mass, and are complete unreliable due to legs being locomotive body parts. Besides like others said, blasting kneecaps is just as deadly as any other shot when you don't have medical rescue, and the buffer zone is 300 meters meaning odds of hitting something as small as a kneecap that is moving is extremely hard and unpredictable in a crowded enviroment.
You realize that you just said that the official Israel policy is to KNEECAP PEOPLE, and subsequently shoot the medics (who are never medics and definitely Hamas so it's fine) who are trying to save their lives.
Do you know what the femoral artery is?
Something that doesn't come to be mentioned in these discussions as well are the living conditions in gaza. Almost all of the water there is not fit for drinking, if they pump potable water to houses it just gets lost because the pipes got destroyed, the sewage treatment plants are over capacity so they have to dump it in the water...
Imagine having your kids born and raised in an open air prison where their health is severely impacted from the water you give them.
Now this is indoctrination
Holy fuck lol
First hand interview with killed medic. Seems like more are being shot at than we realize
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O1lohEhhkqI
...and if Israel collapsed other leading nations in those respective fields would take its place. Israel isn't the only country to dabble in "startups", technology and military R&D, you know.
I don't see how that would lead to the goddamn collapse of the entire world. It would just create opportunities for competitors.
I didn't say anything about the world collapsing?
@Freeee did, though, which is nonsensical.
I'm sorry, what the fuck does Hamas being baddies have to do with justifying the shooting of fucking medics? Or the claim that protesters are being shot at "non-lethally" when in reality they're denied access to vital medical care after being shot in artery-rich regions?
I don't live in your great country and I don't give a shit that you may think this makes my opinion irrelevant, or no more than virtue signaling. I don't need to live in the vicinity of the events to acknowledge that what's going on there is abhorrent. That you dismiss this issue as "bickering about the anatomical structure of knees" is frankly disgusting. Innocent people died.
And no, despite what your victimhood complex might suggest to you, that I criticize the IDF doesn't mean I think Hamas is good or better than them. This thread is simply about violations of the former, not the latter. That's not to say the latter doesn't have its fair (and greater) share of atrocities on its belt.
ahh yes, that will truly bring peace to the whole peninsula.
cmon, I dont like the actions of the Israeli government either but you are just being obtuse
Every single person in this world wants those things. These are base desires. You're acting as if Palestinians are incapable of caring about things on a larger scale than their own individual survival.
So far theres plenty of sources (including video evidence) showing the IDF is targeting medics on purpose.
IDF themselves wont allow a 3rd party investigation for the casualties, and I wonder why 🤔.
Svinnik is arguing that knee shots are less lethal when me and another point out that's outright false.
Also ignored the fact that the medic in question was shot in the chest.
Also ignoring there's plenty of reports of medics being harassed when picking up said "knee shots" so the whole "less lethal" route is entirely moot if you refuse to allow them medical attention.
Trying to damn the Canadian medic over one picture to justify him being shot.
People have been pointing ideas on how to use nonlethal riot control like any other first world nation does, which ends up with "no, we need 3 football fields distance of a buffer zone that happens to only be enforceable with live ammunition".
I have listed ways to keep the peace with non-lethal substitutes this entire thread. The entire way the IDF and posters here have been acting is basically "Hamas could be in the group, so we have to keep 300 meters and take pot shots at them." which is ludicrous. Its hilarious Israelis get on their nationalistic high horse to praise all their advancements in tech and military, but somehow same nation can't handle a riot behind a fence.
Besides, this:
screams "you don't know because you don't live there, stop white knighting" which is even dumber. Since when does a foreign nation has to ignore what other nations are doing to people? The entire reason why Israel is held to a higher standard is because they want to prance around as a first world nation, but then does horrendous shit in the open and acts like they are the victims. Hamas is a terroristic organization, no one is arguing that, what people are arguing is that what IDF is doing is just pouring gas on the flames and acting like they are forced to. If you studied Vietnam/Afghanistan, you would know all the horrendous shit IDF is doing to gaza citizens is just proving Hamas' motive. IDF kills a hand full of innocent protesters? Hamas gains more extremists. IDF does retaliatory attacks using shit like canister shells with tanks? Hamas gains more fervor. This is the entire end goal of IDF, allow the people to "fight" back via terroristic actions, gain more ground/protection by playing victim while pushing out the converted extremists.
When you're clearly biased in favor of Israel it's extremely difficult to take your word that your "discussion" of why your nation dislikes Palestine is truly innocent and not meant to distract from the issue at hand.
knee and shin shots are the way they do things, I can't answer for them, I'm just saying what the sniper told me.
I didn't justify his being shot, I said he's standing next to a Hamas captain so it's likely that the sniper missed.
My argument in regards to the buffer is that there are already some breaches from 300 meters, moving it forwards 150 meters is a big risk to israelis that will only help the people that are willing to break the rules by crossing the buffer line, it's rewarding rule breaking. Israel is trying to use non lethal methods but tear gas drones arent working so well.
What do you think that the IDF should do with these protests and people that are trying to breach the border. Also, doing some research, I was wrong, the IDF uses rubber bullets on people who get close to the border so that's another way they use non lethal methods.
Okay so you admit their agenda is pointless and still lethal, checked that off the list. So then you move from "he was maybe hamas" to "the sniper could have missed!". This just makes your stand even more dumb because now you have snipers that are shooting at targets that are not precise enough to pick from a crowd. Congrats, you just accidentally proved my point to why using live ammo to hit targets past 300m in a riot scenario is dumb and dangerous.
Your "breaches" are border break-ins that are not happening during a riot. You know, an area where soldiers are deployed en mass to control and watch. Its incredibly hard to break into a fence when you have a water cannon blasting you away, rubber bullets pelting you, getting hit with pepper spray or pepper guns, sound cannons causing debilitating ear pain, or tons upon tons of gadgets to keep the peace without having to take potshots or be anywhere near lethal. What do I think the IDF should be doing? literally anything of the above, not sniping at people in groups and harassing medics trying to take bodies back away from the violence.
Except other first world nations have a standard to basic human rights and mostly adhere to them. The US doesn't go to the mexican border and assault illegals or god forbid shoot them on sight for the off chance they could be a cartel member out to kill them. Same goes with our military, as soon as the public finds the army did something horrific, they want investigations. Israel posters and officials on the other hand just wash off their heinous human rights violations by saying whatabout hamas! When you have an international 3rd party who constantly goes after your nation for human rights abuse cases, there's an reason. And its not because poor Israel is just being bullied. If Israel gave a shit about their safety and the standard, they would be upfront with using nonlethal measures to control the situation.
So far the death toll is reaching over 100 with thousands injured with no casualties to Israelis. Humans Rights Watch so far has found little evidence of Palitinians using firearms and have already spoke to an Israeli officer about the the casualties. Which the Officer's response was "we were aiming for the knees or legs, but the people suddenly bent down or ricochets hit others." Its almost like using live ammo in a riot is idiotic.
source:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/05/15/israeli-open-fire-orders-predictably-result-bloodbath
So your argument for lethal force is hinged on "it can turn bad at any moment". Congrats, that's literally any riot/protest scenario, that's why you have tools and training to handle it if the needs arise. Also "Smoke canisters and rubber bullets are frankly nothing around here because everyone is very used to being shot at with live ammunition after this many years of conflict." what in the hell does this even mean? getting shot with a gun makes you resistant to getting shot more? This argument is as stupid as the "you can build a bullet tolerance by moving up calibers when shooting your arm" joke but you're being unironic.
Theres nothing that can be done .... except for the use of debilitating and harmless riot control measures that Israel refuses to apply such as the aforementioned sound cannon, pepper ballers, ADS systems, blinders, and rubber/plastic rounds. Where in the world are you pulling the recruitment trucks, I cannot find a source for that and it sounds like Israeli propaganda.
Hamas attacked this woman's memorial ceremony.
والد الشهيدة رزان النجار لـوطن
Google Translate link to the site
comparing gaza and the mexican border is invalid, they are not alike at all.
Smoke canisters and rubber bullets dont frighten people off anymore, they dont care about being shot with those.
Israel has standards of basic human rights, why do you think israel calls people before they are getting bombed, drops leaflets telling them to get out of the area being bombed, and sometimes even call off the mission if there are too many civilians around? The Pentagon sent a delegation to Israel after the last Gaza war to learn how to copy Israeli tactics to minimize civilian deaths.
Israel tried to limit civilian casualties in Gaza
It's a chaotic situation and you haven't answered the question of what Israel should do according to your wise American ways that knows more about how to prevent civilian casualties while also protecting Israeli lives than active IDF tacticians whose job it is to figure out ways to handle this. Your water cannons and rubber bullets dont work on such a large border, Israeli soldiers cannot be everywhere at once and often the only way Israelis know that the border was breached is because a tripwire was cut that set off an alarm. In situations like those, you automatically assume the worse.
from your human rights watch link:
As hundreds gathered Monday in Jerusalem to celebrate the move of the U.S. Embassy, about 100 kilometers away, Israeli forces fired on Palestinian demonstrators protected by the fence separating Israel from Gaza. They killed 60 people and injured well over 1,000 with live fire, according to Gaza’s Health Ministry.
Israeli forces have shot dead over 100 Palestinians in demonstrations in Gaza since March 30, including 14 children, and injured over 3,500 with live fire.
These staggering casualty levels are neither the result of justifiable force nor of isolated abuses; but foreseeable results of senior Israeli officials’ orders on the use of force.
Palestinian demonstrators in Gaza have challenged Israel’s half-century occupation. Sweeping Israeli restrictions on the movement of people and goods into and out of Gaza, exacerbated by Egypt’s sealed border on the south, have crippled the economy, fed a humanitarian crisis and snuffed out young people’s hope for a brighter future.
It makes the Palestinians look like Gandhi when that's not the case, there are literally videos i posted of Hamas firing at Israeli soldiers, of an IED that Islamic Jihad planted, and of molotov cocktail kites that Palestinians are using to set dry fields on fire.
I have told you what they can do, you refuse to fucking listen and just say its impossible. Cities have had devastating riots that outnumber cops 20-1 but still are able to control the situation without deaths or using live ammo. This is in america, the land of more guns than people. Like if Israel actually was so worried, they could easily man the riot zone with how much military spending and power they have, but why do that when you can sit back 300 meters with a set of snipers to pick off people who might be bad. The videos you posted were not even at the riot locations, or had any context to what is going on other than HAMAS IS EVIL. No shit hamas is evil, thousands of protesters are not fucking hamas. Stop using them as a scapegoat to fire on protesters because of what if cause. Also, my source is an internationally acclaimed group that is nonprofit and has high factual reporting with no nationalistic bias. Your source is twitter posts and pictures from random groups and hear say. And that source you posted from Reuters was from
drum roll
NOVEMBER 6, 2014 / 5:15 PM / 4 YEARS AGO
Good source, not only is it not talking about the current cockup Israel is doing, but its also in response to general fighting with hamas. It says nothing about shooting medics or unarmed protesters who "happened to bend down to get shot".
And your other source is only found on that one site (which isn't listed on media bias checker) and israeli national news which to quote the checker: "Artuz Sheva has a very strong pro-Israeli bias in reporting."
"ah yes excellent another thing I can use to take attention away from Israel by saying Hamas is bad"
i thought you cared about the death of this woman or do you only care about her when it fits your personal narrative
Im saying how security forces deal with potential threats crossing the border considering cartels just as bad as Hamas, but nice strawman.
You're telling me, without a doubt, the entire riot is organized entirely by Hamas. Every single person there is working with Hamas are not actually pissed at Israel treating them like shit. This takes the cake for batshit theories. Hamas could have initiated it, but I extremely doubt the entirety of the riot is based and orchestrated entirely by Hamas at the helm.
Unless the human body is somehow immune to damage, chemical reactions, physics, or even sound, you have nothing to base that theory on. The riot is massive, that's why riot countermeasures are designed around said riots. Its crowd control, a team of 10 to control 1000. Acoustic speakers can cause debilitating pain even with earplugs, water cannons can be brushed around to keep waves of people away, pepper guns can be used to impact while also burning mucus membranes, rubber bullets can bruise skin heavily and send people reeling regardless of what you believe with "getting shot makes you stronger" nonsense.
can i have some extraordinary evidence for this extraordinary claim?
Just as other people refuses to recognizes Israel 'efforts' to protect their rogue nation ?homeland, Israel also refuses to recognizes that Palestinian are fighting to recover their homeland.
Israel dont have any high moral ground here. If anything, Israel is the original instigator of the conflict.
Although long-winding, but all of Israel's side posts are about telling people that they are ignorant, and skirting around the matter, in an effort refuses to admit their wrongdoing.
It's understandable really. I mean, I would be afraid to admit I'm wrong either, if I'm killing womenfolks and poor civilians like them. My mind also will come convolutionlize itself to convince myself that the dilemma is not my fault, because I wouldn't be able live with myself if I dont do that.
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