• Israel Sniper Killed Voluteer Female Medic, 100 Protesters Wounded
    322 replies, posted
It demonstrates that you have no clue about the conflict. The different between the two, between the West Bank and Gaza, between the PLO and Hamas, is a fundamental aspect. While both are palestinian, they differ completely in both their relationship to Israel and the type of conflict that happens between them and Israel.
While that may be, it has no bearing on their main argument: Why use live ammunition, even if one aims for the legs, and then shoot medical personnel that would supposedly make sure such shots won't be lethal? This is a thing that legitimately should be investigated because it is pretty strange.
What the hell are you talking about? Can you quote where I said the Israelis weren't at fault because they were shooting from their side of the border?
Basically insinuating it's OK for Israel to shoot to kill when they see a medic "just in case", and it's Hamas' fault if the fresh corpse turns out to be an actual civilian. But please, tell me again how I'm the dishonest one. He didn't say that. Basically, Israel doesn't grant a special status for Palestinian medics and journalists. IT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DELIBERATELY SHOOT THEM It means that regardless of how they're dressed, they're treated as any other Palestinian civilian. That is, if a Gazan medic takes an active role in violent protests, then he will be treated like any other violent protester. Whether that treatment is right or not - isn't the point, I'm merely stating that one being a medic doesn't necessarily mean that you're automatically innocent and protected nor guilty and deserving to be shot. You're simply equal to any other participant.
Here's the problem: I don't even know the specifics around these shootings, and neither does anyone else in this thread. We have no real evidence that these medics were shot while doing absolutely nothing but tending to the injured. We have no clue if these medics were even medics half the time. People seem totally fine with jumping right on Hamas, and other anti-Israeli, propaganda that every single person with white clothes on was a totally innocent medic shot down in cold blood. Is that true? Who the hell knows? The only possible way you would assume that is if you 1) bought into the propaganda, like that video about the female nurse posted earlier, or B) already hated Israel.
Sorry, I keep getting middle-eastern geography mixed up, especially when driven up the fucking wall by people trying, with disingenuous and dishonest means, to help their country weasel out of war crimes. Still, I don't see how that fuckup of mine has any effect on this thread's main point of discourse, namely Israel's many horrible war crimes and the absolute lack of retribution. Did I stress the war crimes enough? Probably not, better mention the war crimes again. Let's talk about Israel's war crimes, shall we?
Wow you got me SG, instead of being within the border, they are shooting past the border. People are getting pinged in Gaza from Israel as evident from the Canadian medic being shot behind the fence. But that doesn't matter because the snipers are not in gaza geographically. I was talking about Israel showing they don't care about medics as that video was from 2 weeks before the riots. Its not that hard to believe Israel is targeting medics especially when two are shot already, one twice in the legs. Also there you go again with "HAMAS IS CAUSING THIS" when there's a super majority of just regular protesters there and being wounded or killed. The idea of the riots only being ran by hamas is ludicrous and you know it. So you're telling me, the massive amount of doctors shown carrying wounded and treating them in tents are now propaganda? Hamas is now creating fake medics to make fake footage of fake patients. You have lost your damn mind. Thousands are wounded SG, who is treating them? The Israelis? obviously not if they are by your own words "not in Gaza". To lump all those medics as hamas propagandists is disgusting and awful. You are reaching Alex Jones levels with accusing medics who are being assaulted while picking up bodies as propaganda. What reason would Israeli soldiers have to push and point their guns on people who are just trying to pick up bodies or apply first aid. Hamas is planning on using the body as a weapon? The level of conspiracy you're insinuating with Hamas would leave Russia pissing their pants with jealousy.
None whatsoever for that specific scenario (though this is shown happening in that video, but as was stated it has nothing to do with Gaza, but I'm not sure their argument is limited to this protest alone). But neither do we know why those medics were shot, and calls for an independent investigation were denied, leaving only internal investigations on the matter which one can only hope (with some pessimism) will be thorough and not too biased.
Also its a lot more lethal if medical treatment can't reach the person, which makes the knee shot is less lethal argument moot.
Not. The. Fucking. Point. You don't pump lead into someone and then go "it's ok, they can get treatment (maybe) and that makes it not lethal". .22lr is NOT a non-lethal cartridge, you ain't supposed to use that shit for riot control. Fuck me sideways, that post of yours absolutely reeks of deliberate obtuseness.
I'm not sure he meant what you accuse him of meaning but I'll admit he worded his point poorly. It seems to me what he meant is that Hamas is the one who organized this riot, which is true - by their admission.
Err, no we are not operating based on Israel 'law' https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3611028/#Sec2title "One of the basic principles of this system is that medical personnel and military civilians are entitled to special protection from attacks, and another is that the activities of medical personnel cannot be prohibited or violated. Medical personnel, in accordance with Article 24 of the Geneva Convention, should only be “exclusively engaged in the search for, or the collection, transport or treatment of the wounded or sick, or in the prevention of disease, staff exclusively engaged in the administration of medical units and establishments, as well as chaplains attached to the armed forces, and shall be respected and protected in all circumstances.” Geneva Convention II grants protection to medical personnel, as well as to personnel of hospital ships. According to Article 36 of Geneva Convention II, these personnel “shall be respected and protected; they may not be captured during the time they are in the service of the hospital ship, whether or not there are wounded and sick on board.”  The protection would be revoked if they attacks other pesonnel, but they havent. Our wild suggestions that they are hamas, running around border, symphatizing with Palestinian causes, does not invalidate them of their right.
Ive already said the idea that all the people there are there because of hamas and not just general protesting is silly. Cigarettes said the same excuse to try to paint them as hamas, and its an lame one with no real backing other than hamas clamining it. Which I dont trust either IDF or Hamas to be telling the truth.
What? Honestly, how could you have possible gotten that out of my post? I said the video you posted was a propaganda video and not a good source of facts. Yes, of course there are a lot of wounded people. I'm not disputing that. Again, where did I write anything close to this? Where did I say all the medics are Hamas propagandists? THE VIDEO IS PROPAGANDA. It's not a good source for accurate information. It takes tiny snippets from a few unnamed people in the context of propaganda, and you're treating it like some legitimate journalistic account of the situation. 1) THAT VIDEO IS FRONT THE WEST BANK. IT'S NOT HAMAS. My god, please get this straight. You guys keep mixing them up. 2) Who the hell knows? They were in the middle of what seemed like an actively dangerous area and we have no idea what the greater context is. The guy on the stretcher doesn't even look injured. I don't see any gunshot wounds or blood. Maybe they don't want him taken because he's a suspected militant who's going to be arrested? You're taking these tiny vague videos edited down videos and assuming the absolute worst without any evidence of it.
Theres a difference between saying that people aren't there of their own free will and due to coercion by Hamas; and that they are there of their own free will but the event was originally organized (and perhaps continues to be so) by Hamas. It seems to me Sgman said the latter while Cigarettes seemed to at least imply the former - whether my interpretation of their words (or your interpretation for that matter) is wrong is a thing I will leave to them to explain. Surely you can at least agree on the likelihood of the latter considering they are the de facto government of Gaza, despite your distrust for them and the IDF due to their political interests?
Is it shown in that other video? The guy on the stretcher has no visible injuries and the other guy is allowed to be treated.
Sorry, but it's a little hard to differentiate from the Palestinians Israel are shooting and bombing while preventing aid from reaching them and the Palestinians Israel are shooting and bombing while preventing aid from reaching them AND stealing their land. Sorry for any mix up we might have. The defences Israelis but forth for how their government and military are acting are fucking atrocious. "There's a picture of a Hamas captain wearing a medic uniform so it's fine to shoot all medics." "There are 50,000 protesters, they're lucky only a few thousand were shot." "At least we send advanced notice to the Palestinians before we bomb their homes to rubble." "Snipers are trained to shoot the knees for a non-lethal shot. They also shoot the medics and prevent those shot in the legs from getting aid." And the one that only makes sense to an Israeli who has fallen prey to the government's unending propaganda "They were probably Hamas, or they could possibly have been Hamas, so it's fine that it happened." How disconnected from reality do you have to be to put this shit forward as a defence and believe that your side are the good guys. Spoilers, there are no good guys here, only suffering civilians.
Nice try at a witty zinger, but all it does is demonstrate your ignorance of the difference between the two. The West Bank isn't being blockaded. It can receive all the aid it wants.
When that's the one thing you can point to in my post and say "That's wrong, you're SO uninformed." I think there may be a bigger issue.
It's one easy example. There's tons wrong, but it's really not worth going into it with a person who clearly has put in about zero effort to understand the conflict.
lmao further showing that you have no idea of what's going on Israel doesnt bomb the west bank at all, there's no bombing of any protesters. Judging by the amount of people reported injured and the low amount of deaths, it's clear that aid is reaching protesters. The bombing thing, what else do you suggest when Hamas hides rockets in civilian homes? The IDF cant just walk in and take the rockets.
By saying the video is propaganda when its literally just medics trying to treat wounded while being harassed by soldiers. When is it not propaganda? When Israeli soldiers are passing out flowers and singing peace? Its clear cut what is happening on the video, and I pointed out the stretch to say snipers are harassing medics is not far fetched considering how they acted on west bank, and that now we have two medics shot. The funny thing was, Israel tried to pin the Canadian with propaganda to discredit his injury. VIDEO DISAGREES WITH MY VIEWS, ITS PROPAGANDA. Give me video evidence of medics attacking soldiers with guns or bombs then. Shit, give me any proof of the majority people being shot are with Hamas. So far the proof you have is Hamas claims responsibility for the riots (which come on, all terror cells do this shit. Remember when ISIS claimed responsibility for the boston bombing?). That's not enough proof to kill people who are protesting. Meanwhile we have over a hundred dead with thousands injured with no casualties on the Israeli side. And the best excuse Israel has is "they bend down at the wrong time" or "it was a ricochet, total accident". Hmm, its almost like using .22 to contain a riot at 300m is idiotic and dangerous. GUYS IT HAPPENED AT A DIFFERENT LOCATION AND IT DOESN'T MEAN THE IDF IS THE SAME. I forgot west bank and Gaza have two entirely different military groups and countries. see to the first quote why its relevant. And now we are saying "He could be faking an injury, I didn't see blood". Good fucking lord SG, are we really going to stoop that low to justify soldiers pointing their guns at medics or pushing people off stretchers. There's still fighting in the west bank, like when the embassy swap happened, people protested. Plus this literally means nothing to prove your point that the protesters are linked solely to Hamas.
How do you shoot someone non-lethally with a bullet, at distances up to 300 meters no less? Why bother pretending like you care whether someone was shot "non-lethally" when you have established that not only is lethal force reasonable, it's actually preferable to prevent more lost lives?
I've asked this a couple times and no one seems willing to offer an alternative.
should only be “exclusively engaged in the search for, or the collection, transport or treatment of the wounded or sick, or in the prevention of disease, staff exclusively engaged in the administration of medical units and establishments This female medic was already seen throwing a smoke grenade(a concealment one, not IDF teargas as I've explained before) Smoke is often used to conceal militants and protesters trying to cross the border. Therefore she doesn't fit the criteria and is to be considered like any random protester. Before you try to twist my words, I don't say that this behavior alone warrants shooting her with lethal force, but it does make me suspicious of what she has done after that resulted in her death. Most of the people here are biased to think that IDF snipers deliberately targets medics and journalists, but think from an Israeli perspective: This conflict is about PR first and foremost, what rational reason would a sniper have to needlessly shoot a random innocent protester, let alone a medic? What does the IDF stand to gain from this?
Are we watching the same video? You're talking about this one, right: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1lohEhhkqI It's propaganda because: 1) It's a state run news organization in Turkey akin to RT in Russia. It's often used as propaganda for the regime. The video wouldn't even be allowed as evidence on oldpunch because of its source. 2) They cut the conversations in such a way as to purposefully strip context. For example, when interviewing the lady, who is supposed to be one of her peers, they cut the beginning of her statement. Why? I assume it's because when she's referring to "the minute we reached there," she's talking about going into the buffer zone, and they don't want you to know that (we have witnesses saying that she was shot while running towards the border fence). 3) It has literal Hamas propaganda (Justifying the "Great March of Return") and saying that the vetoed UN resolution was to "protect Palestinian citizens." 4) It provides no citations of numbers. 5) It gives no attempt at hearing both sides of the story. 6) It gives no context on the shooting at all. It doesn't say how it happened, where it happened, what was happening around them, etc. There's nothing journalistic about it. Listen, the girls death is tragic. She seems like a quality person who was trying to do good in the world. I'm not saying she's some secret Hamas agent. What I am saying is that we don't know the full situation and this video is absolutely horrible evidence for trying to figure it out. Here's a video of militants in Gaza using an ambulance for transportation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O114V9PdmM Here's an article about Hamas using a hospital as it's headquarters: While Israel held its fire, the militant group Hamas did not Here's a video where Hamas used IDF uniforms to infiltrate Israel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pkhUyEOXXE Here's an article that talks about Hamas militants dressing as women and disguising their weapons as babies: Death tolls mount as Israel expands offensive, Hamas resistance .. There is no low too low for Hamas. What do you mean by "stoop that low?" The guy doesn't have any visible injuries. Am I wrong? If not, then please tell me why that alternative isn't a legitimate explanation? We have plenty of videos of Palestinian militants faking injuries. It wouldn't be something new. Also, I pointed out the different location because you asked if the Hamas would use the body for propaganda when the video has nothing to do with Hamas. Also, I'm not sure if that second sentence was trying to be ironic or not: yes, both places do have entirely different military groups and governments. You're shifting the goalposts. This riot/protest, the "Great March of Return" is a Gazan, and Hamasian, thing.
They are harassing them because the IDF are a bunch of conscripts fighting an enemy that camouflages itself as something other than soldiers regularly. It is a bunch of people who are not volunteers fighting against an enemy that can appear out of nowhere. They may be reasonably well trained and well equipped, but that doesn't undo the fact that they are conscripts. Meanwhile, even against an entirely volunteer fighting force, Hamas tactics are going to generate significant civilian casualties. Which is the point. The entire objective is to force the enemy to kill civilians in order to gain support to fight against them. Hamas has been identified as a terrorist group by virtually everyone, including the EU and the UK, for entirely valid reasons. This entire situation is custom built to be shitty with both the IDF and Hamas having features that place civilians in harm's way.
This. Give kids (often traumatized by past conflicts and anxious due to constant media coverage of current ones) rifles and drop them in a place like that with the responsibility of "defending the borders at any cost" usually leads to jumpy people. Nobody wants Israeli blood on his incompetent hands and there's a saying here that goes something like "If there is a doubt - there is no doubt" further driving the mindset that if they don't take every precaution possible, no matter how paranoid, to stop injuries and deaths then they are to blame. Add to that potential personal convictions about politics and the natural will for revenge whenever people see their friends and colleagues harmed, and you have a real fucking problem here. Training these young people in expertise at carrying out procedures does not necessarily change how their minds function and the fact they are basically kids. There really is no reason to justify what is happening when a simple explanation of why it happens suffices, and it is such explanations of the facts on the ground that would be indispensable for any real, lasting solution to the conflict (or at least this wave of it) - not just condemnation (which I'm not saying isn't just, the situation is fucked up, it just is not enough for actual change). One should always strengthen one's condemnation with a viable alternative and maybe the means of getting such an alternative into existence, especially if one actually cares about this conflict. You outsiders are in a unique position to not be shackled by local loyalties and culture and bias, having the capacity for objectivity that is hard to attain over here - please, don't throw that away. Research what you say before you speak, that is all that is required - make certain the facts you are putting forward as much as is possible with sources available to you. Do not fall for either side's propaganda and do not be quick to trust out-of-context footage (not in terms of what happens on camera, the content is usually undeniable, but do not be quick to trust the context of what is shown without at least attempting to run it by other sources first). Is it really that much to ask? Is me saying this and asking for greater objectivity somehow falling into Israeli indoctrination? Because if it is then there really is no hope for this region.
Basically, if not indiscriminate murder, what Israel is doing will fall into category of collective punishment. They kill/punish indiscrimnately a large group based on assumption towards smaller group. This is, also, prohibited by international law. "Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions, collective punishment is a war crime. By collective punishment, the drafters of the Geneva Conventions had in mind the reprisal killings of World War I and World War II. In the First World War, the Germans executed Belgianvillagers in mass retribution for resistance activity during the Rape of Belgium. In World War II, both the Germans and the Japanese carried out a form of collective punishment to suppress resistance. Entire villages or towns or districts were held responsible for any resistance activity that occurred at those places.[5]The conventions, to counter this, reiterated the principle of individual responsibility. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) Commentary to the conventions states that parties to a conflict often would resort to "intimidatory measures to terrorize the population" in hopes of preventing hostile acts, but such practices "strike at guilty and innocent alike. They are opposed to all principles based on humanity and justice." Additional Protocol II of 1977 explicitly forbids collective punishment. But as fewer states have ratified this protocol than GCIV," https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention But of course every Palestinian can be categorized as combat terrorist demon child by Israel.
I was not aware the positions of Ayelet Shaked reflect the policy of the entirety of Israeli leadership and Military central command, maybe even all of Israeli society. Why do you argue like this when your arguments can be supported without resorting to demagogic hyperbole of this sort? Even in her tenure as Justice Minister, she still reflects only her own interpretation of the position held by her political party - hardly Israeli policy in action; and doing more than that is outside of the jurisdiction of her work description even if she wanted to.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.