Israel Sniper Killed Voluteer Female Medic, 100 Protesters Wounded
322 replies, posted
Dude as a right wing israeli myself I can tell you that it's completely unacceptable that the IDF cut out context from the video of her speaking, that's pallywood level stuff and it's disgusting that the idf would stoop so low.
By the way, I'm totally on board with condemning them for cutting that video.
Indefensible, genocidal actions being defended in 2018? This is unacceptable, how can you possibly believe this shit:
You're saying they're 200 feet away from the border. If they get closer use the water cannons. If they don't get closer, don't use the water cannons. Why do you need to shoot medics in this scenario and then defend said actions? Seriously?
Imagine the US army unloading on civilians under the threat of one of them being terrorists. Oh wait if they do that they are trialed under warcrimes and sent back home with a fancy court marshal. My point was so far these threats are outright made up or blown massive outof proportion to justify the IDF's actions with third parties not seeing a single thing going on. When your army is blowing people off daily with no imminent danger seen, you need to step back and realize you're doing a shit job at containing the situation.
Also, back 👏 at 👏 it 👏 again 👏 labeling 👏 all 👏 protesters 👏 as 👏 Hamas. Never get tired of that do you.
might as well shoot em with bullets then lol
I get that it's frustrating to be one vs everyone in this thread, but this is some laughable strawmanning - isn't it reasonable to question whether less lethal means could be used, considering that the statistics are that lopsided? Isn't it reasonable to question whether less Palestinians could be killed/injured at little to no cost to the Israelis?
This attitude of any security at any expense to the other side is just not a very sympathetic one.
Third time asking, provide any proof that there's a genocide or fuck off with that argument. Also, don't use the CURRENT YEAR meme, it's irrelevant
it's already been covered in this thread and we both know you've read it already. feigning ignorance of the intentional attempted killing of an entire ethnic group by the government of israel isn't a counter argument. this has been happening for years. killing and killing and killing of unarmed men, women, and children by armed soldiers. what do we usually call that?
where did I say I was okay with them doing that?
No, you're welcome to question it. That's fine. It's great. I have no problem with it. My goal is for the least number of people to die while also recognizing that Israel has every right to defend the lives of its citizens from foreign attack. People seem to agree with the prior without allowing for the later.
My problem is when people say, "Pff, they should just use X method," without any justification whatsoever about how that would actually work, all the while denying the reality of the situation and real dangers posed by Hamas. Throwing out words like "water cannon," "pepper spray," etc. means actually nothing unless those things would be effective in this context, and comparing it directly to the kinds of riots experienced in western nations is just stupid. They're totally different in both locale, surroundings, size, intent, and everything else.
Israel does actively use things like rubber bullets against Palestinian riots... in the West Bank. Why do they use them in the West Bank, but not in this situation? Because they're entirely different. These "less than lethal" options can be extremely effective, but they are not always effective.
It hasn't been covered from what I recall. The definition of genocide is systematic killing, there's no systemic killing of Palestinians and the Palestinian population is growing fast.
I would suggest ignoring him. He's beyond any ability to think rationally about the topic.
Idk, saying the protesters would be planting bombs right infront of israeli soldiers to kill them when theres no proof anything other than people miles away from the riots are actually breaching the fence. Better to put a bullet in their "knees" than to be sorry. Oh fuck they bent down at the last minute and was shot in the chest 4 times, How unlucky. You aren't "defending lives" when you're taking pot shots behind the border.
Huh, I thought I said that Hamas was planting bombs, not protesters.
What do you mean by "better to put a bullet in their "knees" than to be sorry? By "be sorry" do you mean allow them to do damage? I'm honestly asking for clarification.
Considering that she took a part in the hostilities, she's also no longer protected under international law.
Customary IHL
Medical personnel lose the special protection to which they are entitled if they commit acts of hostility.
Such behavior might even constitute perfidy if in so doing they take advantage of their medical position and the distinctive emblems.
Sooooo every single person wounded or killed so far is hamas. Good logic there, because the numbers are arguing even children are hamas now. You have reiterated and insinuated hamas is the reason why IDF cant use anything but live fucking ammunition to guard their 400m buffer zone. When im arguing the hamas issue is vastly overblown with the main hamas agents shown being miles away from the area where riot control is needed. I mean so far thats all you or svinnik has posted as boogeyman hamas working in. 3rd parties have not spotted any weapons of the sort from the crowd, but you and the IDF swear they are there. Thats why when finally its shown a felmale nurse was gunned down, they resorted to calling her a rioter and possibly an hamas plant, just like the canadian.
America has enforced buffer zones with reasonable ROE for years with bases in hostile nations, why the fuck can't the so called most advance military in the world can do the same. And i meant the sorry bullet to the knee as a comment an IDF captain said as an excuse to the massive amount of casulties. You know if you actually read my posts you'd see i reference it multiple times.
https://youtu.be/dtErUuBvcRc
Just so I know where you're at before responding. Do you think Hamas was just lying when it claimed 5 of the first 62 killed?
Oh better just gun those kids down. IDF has done this, this is what happens when a country is constantly blown the fuck up, had tanks roll in and use canister rounds to shotgun blast people enmass, use fucking WHITE PHOSPHORUS on people and buildings, and now shoot unarmed protesters on their own land. The US did the same exact shit right after ww2 with the vietnamese and koreans. All it did was fuel extremeisim, and lead to the general populace to hate us. We see it now with drone strikes and i disagree with those too. If you want to take out terror cells, you have to be surgical and percise, otherwise you're fanning their flames for more recruits. I mean if the us came in and bombed your neighborhood, would you support them and sing praise about them?
I already said terror cells lie all the time due to no accountability, just like isis and al-Qaeda. Still look at that, 5 of 62 with hundreds wounded. Great surgical precision there, what did they use a fucking chainsaw to make an incision?
I made a typo and corrected it. The correct number is 50 of the 62.
Also, here's what I see as a pretty fair article on the general situation: With riots and live fire, Gaza just went 25 years back in time
Fucking really, the source says the live ammunition swap led to increased fatalities. The only reason why it went down afterwards was general fatigue with rioters getting tired and going back home. Then it says that hamas is somehow twisting the narritive against israel. No one is twisting the narritive but israel. Other parties at the conflict have seen people fleeing the border and still being shot at, or people not even close to the fence being killed. We even have a canadian doctor who was shot for no reason before the alleged hamas agent was even targeted. Its on the IDF to justify their killings, and so far they have just pushed bullshit like the female nurse incident, or say it was an accident.
So thanks for posting that lethal means is ineffective and pointless when rioters or protesters give up due to fatigue. Even your source has pointed out the new fatalities have actually embroiled new protesters, which i said what would happen just like vietnam and Afghanistan.
I don't think you really read the article fully. It talks about the development of tactics on the Israeli side in the context of the intifadas and conflicts in the West Bank as well as Gaza. The whole general riot fatigue wasn't talking about the current conflict.
The article even directly mentions that there are claims of some being shot while fleeing the border zone.
The beginning talks about how they switched to live ammo because "rubber rounds are less accurate and can kill accidentally". Which to start off is so fucking idiotic, you switch from something that is only lethal in vital parts of the body or in freak accidents, to something that was literally designed to be lethal period. But pointed when the swap happened, it led to higher death rates. The only reason the riot died down afterwards was due to fatigue which happens to all riots. Then they talked about shooting at the border with:
No one had any doubt that whoever went into the zone 200 to 300 meters from the fence would get hurt. Badly. The IDF snipers had orders to aim for ankles, and only shoot to kill at individuals with weapons. How closely they all adhered to the orders is unclear. Footage from the scene shows that in at least a handful of cases, Palestinians were also shot when trying to run out of the buffer zone, and there are those who claim to have been shot farther away.
But then your source doubles over and says a contradictory statement:
But it was clear that even if Israeli soldiers scrupulously stuck to the rules of engagement, with the policy of firing at anyone in the zone, the number of casualties would be a result of how many tried to get into it.
One second they show there's witness testimonies and videos showing people who were shot well away from the zone and fence or running out of the zone, but then turns around and says they were trying to get in?
Then they claim the shooting has ultimately worked in hamas' favor by enticing more reaction to their side:
As of Saturday afternoon, there were no major follow-up protests and the estimated 30,000 who turned up Friday – less than two percent of Gaza’s tired population – doesn’t indicate a massive appetite for a new uprising. If Friday’s events repeat themselves, there are the potential makings of a third intifada. But Hamas and other organizations that would like to see that happen just don’t seem to have the support right now.
Before you say "they said they don't have the support" my point is these events will be dragged into another conflict, just like every riot. I'm starting to think you saw the first paragraph and didn't bother to read the rest. I know the first riot they talked about was back in 1993, but it doesn't change when the ROE is the same and the outcome is the same. People riot, they get tired, they go home. Live ammo does nothing but increase deaths and fuel radicalism.
Here's a point that I think gets missed in all this: if Israel wants to be taken seriously and given the benefit of the doubt in this conflict, then they need to take responsibility for situations like this where they fuck up. Not only is it absolutely despicable to edit footage to paint her as some kind of Hamas agent, you're doing half their job for them by making her a martyr, AND pissing off the rest of the Palestinian people. In a fair world this would be treated like the murder that it is and the sniper would face justice, but I think we all know that's never going to happen.
Situations like this are the reason why I and many others think that Israel is not serious about ending the fighting and they don't actually give a fuck about the Palestinian people. How could they, when they so callously twist the killing of an innocent medic to suit their narrative. It's so sickening.
I'm beyond any ability to think rationally about the topic of the systematic murder of the Palestinian people by the Israeli Regime, because I disagree with the notion that Israel is the victim / with you? Interesting opinion you have there.
We're talking about years of war crimes and only 3 people went to prison over it? Most likely they just punished those two officers because they got caught, not because it was done in the first place. I mean, why should they punish the officers anyway? Israel deliberately didn't sign the CCW protocol concerning incendiary weapons. As one of the only modern western countries. I wonder why. Ah, right, how stupid of me. We're talking about the country that imposes collective punishments, regularly destroys essential infrastructure, schools and housing, and then shoots the people protesting their actions. There is no logic to be found in the IDF.
My main problem with your point would be one of balance. I agree that Israel shouldn't do that kind of stuff. It's not right, and it does make them look worse. I'm totally on board with condemning those sorts of things and calling for real consequences for whoever approved it.
The problem is that you miss the bigger picture. Let's say for a second that some Swiss citizens, as neutral parties, started critiquing some of the US propaganda against Nazi Germany as deceptive during WWII. They would probably be right. There was a big attempt to make both Germany and Japan seem totally evil, often ignoring the nuance of the situation, but we would also point out how absolutely crazy it would be fore those same Swiss citizens to conclude that the US is, therefore, in the wrong for the war, that they were to blame for a lot of what was going on. If these Swiss citizens continued to really only go after the US, and their allies, while ignoring what the Nazis had done, and were still doing, we would have to assume that they were biased against the Allies. We might even conclude that they were on the side of the Axis.
The situation Israel finds itself in is extremely similar in a lot of ways. Hamas is very comparable to the Nazis on a moral level. They're a theocratic authoritarian government focused on actual genocide who put almost no value on the lives of their own citizens (In some ways, the Nazis were more moral). The people of Gaza elected them into power, knowing what Hamas wanted. It wasn't some secret. Their founding documents stated as much.
So when you say that because Israel makes some propaganda, which is true, and they sometimes kill some innocent people, which is also true, they are therefore the main group at fault for the conflict, or that they "don't give a fuck about the Palestinian people," while totally ignoring that Israel is the only real democracy in the region that gives equal rights to people from every religion and cultural group and Hamas is a genocidal theocracy stopped only by Israeli military power, your accusations start to ring flat. They don't have any hitting power.
Hamas in almost entirely at fault for the conflict in question. These riots, the barricade, the horrific daily suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza all come right back into the lap of Hamas, and those who support it. Yes, Israel does make mistakes, and some of them are pretty big, but they are still VASTLY superior to any government within Gaza. They could easily mow down thousands in these riots, but they don't. They lay out rules, like staying away from the border, and they act harshly on those who disobey. Hamas intentionally pushes these rules and enjoys the death of their own people. The Palestinians can protest all they want. They have the entirety of Gaza in which to do so, but they choose to do it in a place that threatens Israel and is guaranteed to lead to loss of life. Why? Because that's what they want: loss of life.
I don't see Hamas taking entire countries or sending millions of jews to concentration camps. Even if you were to ignore that and compare Hamas to Nazi Germany, anyone who actually knows about WW2 would know America did extremely fucking horrible shit during the war. Ever heard of the firebombings of japan? Bet you haven't, because majority of american history books gloss over the tidbit where the US firebombed almost every major Japanese city with firebombs with the exact purpose of scorching the entire city to dust. Total casualties reaching 241K-900K and leveling entire cities, with firebombs being picked due to their houses being mostly made from wood and paper. They could have easily done strategic raids with bombs to take out known targets, but deemed it as too much of a risk due to night bombing being safer (and with the fire bombs you don't have to aim, just drop them somewhere in the city).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Bomb_damage_in_Tokyo.jpg/1280px-Bomb_damage_in_Tokyo.jpg
This is Tokyo after the war, there were mountains of charred bodies in the streets with women and children included.
This is the same approach IDF is taking but instead of an actual risk for AA fire during the day with precision bombing, IDF has "maybe they are terrorists" as an excuse. Also to compare the two considering it was the fucking world war, is idiotic.
Other than that last sentence, you didn't really present any argument there. You just kind of threw out some facts as if they stand on their own. (And yes, of course I know about the firebombings. They caused more casualties than the nukes.)
Do you disagree that Hamas is morally comparable to the Nazis? Do you disagree that Hamas is the clear cause of the current conflict, as a whole? Do you disagree that Israel holds a much more moral position on the conflict? Do you believe that Israel is the first real democracy with equal rights to desire the genocide of an entire people group? Etc.
Can't read can you. I compared the IDF to the horrible shit the US did because they rather cause mass civilian casualties over any threat of their own people. Except the US at least had a excuse with how fortified the cities were, IDF has whatifs that haven't come true yet.
You're going back to labeling all the protesters as hamas agents. Don't fall back to your nonsense "i never said that". Everyone can see what you're trying to say, and I'm calling a spade a spade. Hamas is a shit organization, but that doesn't mean Israel has the right to gun down whoever they suspect is dangerous. And to compare someone who was an actual threat like Nazi Germany who already had taken over the entire European peninsula to a bunch of radicals who have launched cheap rockets that were shot down immediately is idiotic. Like in that very post you just ignore the amount of civilians shot and just go straight to blaming it on hamas. Hamas didn't pull the trigger, IDF did. Hamas didn't expand their lands into Israel's territory, Israel did. Hamas didn't have a child shot for throwing a rock, the IDF did. The entirety of Palestine's people are not the ones doing this horrid shit, its the feud between a terror cell and a country that has zero disregard for Palestinian safety.
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