I don't really have a view on the whole 'feel good' thing, but as I said in the other thread, I need more than a loss of GDP percentage spread over 8 years, I need more than an temporary economic downturn as that can happen even without a Brexit event.
Ok
Right, an economic downturn can happen anyway so fuck it, lets just create one with only the vaguest possible advantages appearing maybe at some point that we can't reasonably guess at.
If you yourself acknowledge this it can't very well be "doomsday prophesy" now can it?
Lemme just throw everything down the drain because of 'an economic downturn' or a 'loss of GDP', hey, maybe we should stop Labour getting in because their policies will cause people to lose their jobs! I'd rather not open the door to have government unable to move on decisions because 'muh gdp', I mean, that is what you are advocating for right, stopping Brexit because it may 'cause some economic damage', or would maybe even if 60%+ voted for Brexit, 'na, ignore them, have to protect the gdp'.
Because 'lemme just throw everything down the drain because I have no clue how any of this shit works' is a much better reason, clearly.
Didn't you outright say that you support this because you stand to directly benefit from it monetarily at some point or something?
I may indirectly benefit from it when my country signs a trade deal with the UK, we are signing one with the EU regardless.
So you're chastising people for being unhappy with something that might economically hurt them... And are probably the most ardent supporter of that thing that's probably going to hurt them... While standing to benefit from said thing.
That's pretty fuckin' hypocritical my dude.
It's pretty funny that you paint opponents to Brexit as doomsday criers and then somehow take my point of "Leaving the EU brings many disadvantages and few if any advantages" to arriving at the the view that I want to remove democratic government.
What, exactly, do you mean by "just throw everything down the drain"?
Can we just soft-ban Boilrig from all Brexit-related threads? It's clear he's only in this to stir up crap like Tudd was.
If I believed the UK was in actual peril, I would most likely side with them.
As I said in another thread a while back, setting a precedent about using a rarely used referendum ability and then completely ignoring in because of some GDP loss, it isn't worth it. People are worrying in the other threads about Trump and constitutional rights, I worry that ignoring the referendum opens the door to a more controlling and possibly abusive government in the UK making people's lives even worse in the name of economics and ignoring their future voice as if you can do it once, you can do it again. As I said, I need more reason than a temporary economic downturn and a gdp loss over 8 years to shove referendums down the drain and what they represent.
No I'm not and you are making that claim based on absolutely nothing. This is a complete strawman on your part. I never once advocated ignoring the referendum, much less ignoring it because of the economic consequences. This is purely an argument that you spun out of nowhere.
He is the single greatest argument against his own position though. Boilrig is the perfect face for the Brexit movement, gleefully admitting that his support for it is based purely on feels and that democracy is only good when his side wins.
That's patently wrong, though. He is intentionally being divisive here based entirely on his own advantageous stance on the issue, and he knows people will innately defend him when he looks like the underdog, when in actuality he asks for every single inch of shade cast at him.
Sorry, I keep confusing you with the others on here who have stated time and time again about ignoring the referendum. Apologies.
If the 'feels' you speak of are about my statement above, then sure.
I single you out (whereas we have other pro-brexit members that I don't argue with) because you argue in a patently shithouse way, condescending and belittling anyone who disagrees with you as "muh feels" and "muh GDP". It reeks of insecurity and callousness.
If you want your own opinions to be validated, then you have to validate others. You are not the centre of the world, or even this forum. You are not entitled to voice your opinion unchallenged, especially not when you wilfully disregard others' like a petulant child.
The emphasis was on "culture wars". Boilrig and everyone else disagrees with whether or not the UK should remain part of a fiscally and culturally unified bloc of nations. Tudd and everyone else disagreed on whether or not Muslims belong in Western countries, or that transgender people deserve the equal rights and respect as cisgender people, or how much of the Mexican population, exactly, are rapists and thieves. I don't get the impression that Boilrig is hateful (other than against the EU as a bureaucratic edifice, not a person or people) while I think Tudd was not only hateful, but calculated in his hate.
Read his recent posts in threads about immigration issues. Approving of Trump's deportational nonsense cannot be construed as anything short of hate.
Fair enough. I guess then it would just be a question of quantity.
I'm sorry if it comes across as a sort of 'insecurity and callousness', the 'muh gdp' thing is more of a personal relation to my own country where our parties determine that no matter how bad the situation gets, that 'as long as GDP is increasing, nothing else matters'. So I guess I see any sort of GDP argument as stupid and overriding in common sense of modern governments, not to say I ignore it, but I put it down the list of importance when it comes to governmental decisions.
I read all the arguments presented against Brexit and while people may not believe me, I'm quite open to change, I just believe I need more presented to me than job losses, gdp loss, temporary economic downturn to think about ignoring a referendum, as once again, my own country has done that multiple times.
My worry with that is that unless the situation is sorted, and we face an economic downturn in the future and the mixed migration worries of the UNHRC come true, then the US may get to the point of actively shooting down people attempting to cross the borders illegally as they struggle with mounting debt and popular opinion turning against foreign aid and asylum/refugee/etc people.
The United Kingdom is not your country. I have no idea why you think New Zealand's political structure is applicable to the UK. Your talk of the "empire" makes me think you're just a jumped-up anglophile who wants to wear a red coat.
Oh, believe me, in the days of the Empire they'd have given you a red coat, for sure. You'd get to wear it all day, especially when they buried you in a foreign field without a single nod or a wink to your participation in the Empire's glorious conquest of the darkies.
No, the United Kingdom is not my country, however New Zealand's political structure is built directly from the United Kingdom's, while we lack a House of Lords, we are under common law, we don't even have a constitution in the traditional sense.
Boilrig like what's your deal man, did someone hurt you or something? Do you not have anything better to do? Are you actually mentally unwell?
@Boilrig what bout the aussies and the asians tho
I don't believe so, but going off that, I mean, I'm pretty sure we all have something better to do than post on FP.
Aussies are in the same boat, and we need help because China is not our friend yet its increasingly using its soft power against us, so brining UK influence in some form to NZ may help our situation.
a Chinese/NZ alliance
thats the weirdest idea i've ever heard of, deffo going into my writing folder
Which is why I unironically like the trade war Trump is doing, because we've got a lot of reliance on China, and we were making some serious inroads to getting a free trade deal with Russia but then they went and poisoned those two in the UK. So yeah, anything to diversify our trade even more is a benefit, maybe a fleet visit would be nice.
Y'know, I still haven't got a satisfactory answer of where the UK is supposed to find all these hot new trade opportunities that leaving the EU will supposedly free them up to pursue
Similarly, I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer for how the fuck completely abandoning their position of wildly disproportionate power within the EU and basically giving up all of their influence in the Eurosphere is supposed to be a net benefit to the UK in the long run
I believe most of it is supposed to be about speeding up trade deals as it is well known EU trade deals take quite a long time, but I remember something from an article about 3 months back or so mentioning that their foreign office has been in contact with 70 or so countries about trade deals, so it will be interesting to see what happens.
That wildly disproportionate power couldn't even get an emergency handbrake concession on migration numbers, so I wouldn't say they were that powerful, as I've explained in another thread, soft power UK is still pretty big, or at least it is over here, the poisoning incident said a lot tbh.
https://twitter.com/danmericaCNN/status/1010122242469060608
This is the price others are paying for your stupid little games. Well, Trump's stupid little games, but you unironically voice support for them. China's not going to be hurt by the tariffs very much in the long run, unless other nations join in and multilateral protectionism grinds the international commerce sphere to a halt -- which would have incredible effects worldwide, including your precious New Zealand. I really doubt that it's going to work out for you as well as you expect.
If the only benefit you pay attention to as a yardstick is how your stock portfolio or your domestic investments are doing, you're going to say some things that're going to come across to others as total shitclown territory. It's something to consider.
You are aware that the UK alone is 13% of the council votes, right?
You're aware of their broad veto powers over policy and potential member states that in some situations can even put down France and Germany?
You are aware that the UK holds more opt-outs and special conditions than any other member state, yes? That they're one of only two member states with a fully fledged opt out on the schengen area?
You do know that the way they got these things was, y'know, having that aforementioned huge amount of influence within the EU, right?
That top bit is barely even a rewording of the same vague mention of nebulous trade partners that are gonna bolster the UK and somehow give them better deals than they've already got in the EU without a single specific mention of actual real nations and actual real goods that will be traded
This entire answer is unsatisfactory, I require more. I require real information and specific details
Who is the UK going to trade with once they leave? What are they going to trade? Who are these potential trade partners that are worth throwing the UK's place within the Eurosphere in the bin just to get at them a little faster? How is the UK giving up their position of majority influence within the EU council supposed to not drastically affect their soft power in the region? How is giving all that supposed to benefit them at all?
This noise about migration strikes me as wholly irrelevant. Strikes me as more of an attempt to lead the conversation away from having to actually answer questions and get people into explaining things to you, rather than you having to explain yourself
Of course there is a price, however it stands as a valid strategy for national security, you speak of it not hurting China very much in the long run, neither will it the US as suppliers move away from sourcing and supplying China, and doubling down on efforts like https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-investment/u-s-plans-limits-on-chinese-investment-in-u-s-technology-firms-idUSKBN1JL03L?il=0 The world may be globalized as many talk about on here, but the US can still move mountains with enough pressure, and its not like any of us actually want China to succeed in anyway.
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