IDF soldier killed by fire on Gaza border, sparking wide-scale Israeli strikes
55 replies, posted
The palestinian population is increasing, such a successful genocide if their population has almost tripled since 48
i've been to israel, I've been to the West Bank, I've spoken to Israeli government officials, I've spoken to Palestinian government officials, I can explain the conflict from both sides using sources to prove why each side considers themselves right but apparently the American that's never been to Israel, has no understanding of the complex politics of the Israel/Palestine situation, ignores sources explaining how Israel tries to minimize civilian deaths, compares the 6 day war to this situation despite the two being incomparable.
You don't care about actual facts, you just want to jerk yourself off about how morally superior you are to the Israelis while living in your ivory tower. You suggest no solutions, you don't even try to understand the situation from the Israeli side, all you do is look and criticize without understanding anything about this situation and how it got to this point.
Do you have a source for either B (as in the targeted destruction of Palestinians for their sole fact of being Palestinians and not out of a result of negligence and lax rules of engagement), or E (that the reason Israel inflicts such conditions on the Palestinians are the result of seeking the physical destruction of the actual ethnic group - as in, the death of those individuals)?
There is also a loaded implication in C that anyone who doesn't use these words you listed interchangeably is irrational and possibly a shill (which is condescending to the extreme).
Why would all of this not be much more easily explained by the combination of bureaucratic entanglements, negligence and the petty and cynical ambitions of both politicians and military officers? That instead of caring to the point they would execute a long drawn-out plan on two dimensions of governmentaly sanctioned power (while carefully hiding it and at the same time carelessly doing things like dropping white phosphorous in plain sight) they could simply not care about the results of their actions as long as for the politicians it gets more votes and for the military it gets promotions? Do we not have a military-industrial complex here, after all?
Do you have an answer to this question? I would repeat again in case my other posts on this subject were ignored (which I find highly likely): that Israel is not committing outright genocide does not make the situation right, it merely makes it complicated and harder to solve than just pointing at a single amorphous monolithic party to condemn.
I ask you again, as I did several other times and you ignored, if you have legitimately strong proof that both Israeli leadership and/or military central (or even local) command have a clear agenda of deliberately killing groups for their sole belonging to an ethnic group they seek to remove - please show it to me and others in this thread. If you base this on more than gut-feeling, incomplete information divorced of context and a self-righteous will to be on the right side then I certainly would love for you to show it to me, because as it seems you merely accuse anyone who disagrees with you as being shills for a genocidal regime, without tackling their arguments, while also going about other threads on this subject and rating posts negatively instead of responding to them. It is true you owe neither me nor anyone in this thread anything, but could you please give this common courtesy?
I'm sure you would agree if you have seen my posts on this subject before that I am no friend of the Israeli government nor do I condone any of their actions, so that shill narrative of excusing a brutal regime isn't going to fly here. I fully well accept the claim that the actions done by the government and military are brutal and cause severe physical, psychological and even economic damage in the relevant territories, I just disagree that this is a result of an implicit wish for genocide on part of the people ordering such actions.
Israel is a disgusting state
Just because another genocide is worse than this genocide does not mean this is not a genocide. It does not delegitimize other genocides to call this what it is - a systematic, intentional mass murder of an entire ethnic group - just as it does not make irrelevant the obvious attempts to both make Palestinians a lesser class and to concentrate them in an enormous, fenced in area.
do you have any proof israel is trying to commit genocide? Give me some strong irrefutable proof
Considering you've blatantly ignored every attempt I've made at showing it to you including literally the definition of Genocide, , as well as the attempts of others, it's obvious this post is mere bait. Try harder.
more people have died in the Syrian civil war than in the Israel Palestine conflict, does that mean that there's a genocide of Shias and Sunnis going on in Syria that no one knows? You're conflating death counts with genocide. You cite the definition of genocide but what counts as a large group of people? In the last Gaza war, a thousand Palestinians died out of millions living in Gaza. Does that make 9/11 a genocide of Americans?
Your point here is "Its Genocide even though it isn't genocide".
If we can go around and just label anything that is just a normal war-crime or collateral damage as "Genocide". Then the whole entire meaning of the word goes down the fucking drain.
No my point here is that the Israeli regimes actions towards the Palestinian people are by all definitions a Genocide. You are doing your best to try and ignore the facts of the matter, but fortunately facts are facts and you are incorrect.
You talk about the meaning of the word and in the same meaningless wall of text you completely ignore the meaning of the word. What's your game here, be so utterly verbose that nobody wants to bother responding? That tactic gets tried in these threads every time get real
How convenient then, that you do not have to provide said facts that support genocide as a likelier source of actions than the things I have mentioned in my post earlier which you ignored!
The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of their ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, social status, or other particularities.
(by extension) The systematic suppression of ideas on the basis of cultural or ethnic origin; culturicide.
Or indeed, as per international law:
... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily harm, or harm to mental health, to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life
calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Do you notice a common thread in all these definitions of genocide? I'll spell it out to you in case you find this wall of text too inconvenient to read: there must be a primary intent to physically destroy (read: kill) an ethnic group.
Your rhetoric is by definition unfalsifiable as no fact brought against your narrative can disprove a secret, hidden, 70-years-in-the-making plan for genocide. A semantic argument about the meaning of the word genocide when you yourself have not once demonstrated the "obvious" facts that "any rational person" can see prove without a shadow of a doubt to anyone that a consistent motive of ethnic extermination, somehow magically unphased by changes in government regimes and changing of people occupying military command positions, is somehow more likely than negligence and complete apathy on part of both the population and the people in power when it comes to what they deem an acceptable situation and acceptable casualties.
What actually angers me is that you think people on this forum are this stupid to fall for your non-sourced accusations and condescending rhetoric while you yourself consistently ignore arguments raised against you, resorting instead to ratings.
I hate the Israeli government as much as the next guy - to the point I've had people IRL call me a traitor, but seriously, grow the fuck up man.
Im not ignoring the damn facts here. I am recognizing them for what they are but they should be labeled for what they are. Cause every motherfucking historian out there who has researched genocides and anything similar can flat out say what Israel is doing is not fucking Genocide. They are war-crimes and collateral damage that should be denounced and Israel should be prosecuted for what they have done that is reckless and apathetic behavior in their war against Hamas.
Genocide is considered to be a mass-scale killing of population. Usually by the hundreds of thousands or by the millions. And taking the death toll since Israel was first formed, the death toll for both sides in the conflict has only been 51,000. Where that has only been the result of warfare and conflict. Not by death squads, death camps, systematic killings, state sanctioned killings teams, etc. Also that's an extremely low amount of casualties compared to any other modern war that has happened since WW2 Like there has not been any evidence of official israel policy that has flat out said "Exterminate the Palestinians/Slaughter the Palestinians." Yes there has been killings and deaths, but that is more fueled by the growing divide between the Israeli and Palestinian people, which is more of Hate Crimes and Terrorism. Far different from the actual term of Genocide.
Like there is actual people from Israel on this forum who have served in their military. Go ask them cause i don't think they were given a handbook that says "Top ten ways to shoot a Palestinian without getting caught." That doesn't excuse what other Israeli soldiers have done in the past few months, but that is more of an individual thing being fueled by racial tensions and
Propaganda than being told by their government to shoot Palestinians on sight. Like half of your rhetoric here is trying to paint every single soldier of the Israeli government as blood thirsty savages who want to slaughter Palestinians left and right, like they're human too along with the Palestinians. Yes there is some bad ones, but not all of them are that.
"Those who should use the word genocide never let it slip their mouths. Those who unfortunately do use it, banalise it into a validation of every kind of victimhood," Using the word for anything that is bad completely destroys the definition of the word.
Going to say this. And hopefully you show evidence.
GIVE ME LITERAL PROOF OF ISRAEL COMMITTING STATE SANCTIONED GENOCIDE AGAINST THE PALESTINIANS. GIVE ME AN ACTUAL ARTICLE OF SOME ISRAELI OFFICIAL ESTABLISHING A STATE-SANCTIONED KILL TEAM/DEATH CAMP. GIVE ME EVIDENCE OF MASS GRAVES OR MASS KILLINGS OF PALESTINIANS BY THE TENS OF THOUSANDS. AND DON'T SHOW ME WHAT IS ACTUALLY WAR-CRIMES, HATE-CRIMES, HUMAN INCOMPETENCE, COLLATERAL DAMAGE COMMITTED BY INDIVIDUAL ISRAELI SOLDIERS OR GENERALS. SHOW ME EVIDENCE OF THE ENTIRE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT DECLARING GENOCIDE AGAINST THE PALESTINIANS.
FOR
FUCK
SAKE
while i mostly agree with this post you really should chill a bit, man
have to use bold so people would actually read the damn thing instead of skimming over it and getting ready to type a reply of how im excusing what Israel is doing. Even though i stated a billion times that i dont support what they do.
There's a difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing a region.
Both net you the same benefit, really, but you don't have to kill everyone if you just want to cleanse an area for your own use.
The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is "rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group
Ethnic cleansing defies easy definition. At one end it is virtually indistinguishable from forced emigration and population exchange while at the other it merges with deportation and genocide. At the most general level, however, ethnic cleansing can be understood as the expulsion of a population from a given territory.
The Final Report of the Commission of Experts established pursuant to Security Council Resolution 780 defined ethnic cleansing as "a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas".[13] In its previous, first interim report it noted, "based on the many reports describing the policy and practices conducted in the former Yugoslavia, [that] 'ethnic cleansing' has been carried out by means of murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extra-judicial executions, rape and sexual assaults, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, and wanton destruction of property. Those practices constitute crimes against humanity and can be assimilated to specific war crimes. Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention."
Meanwhile, Israel
Murder
Torture
Arbitrary Arrest and Detention (including children)
Extra-judicial executions
Rape and sexual assaults
Confinement of civilian population to ghetto areas
Forcible removal
Displacement and deportation of civilian population
Deliberate military attacks of threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas
Wanton Destruction of Property
The fact that Israel is committing ethnic cleansing by definition of ethnic cleansing is indisputable.
Ok where the fuck are you getting Israel is allowing Torture, Sexual assault, and rape towards Palestinians?
Now we're getting somewhere!
Yes, indeed in many cases Israeli leadership sees absolutely no problem with ethnic cleansing and has done so in the past against both arab populations and jewish populations (both of which I can easily provide examples, if required) because for some reason a kind of spectre of security is put higher on the priority list than the freedoms of entire neighborhoods. This is very different, as I'm sure you agree, to the unsubstantiated (and in principle unverifiable) claim that Israel has a secret (or perhaps even overt!) policy of genocide.
I will join Deathtrooper, however, in asking where exactly sexual violence was tolerated (because I can easily find examples of the rest of the things on this list) and will also ask what exactly constitutes murder in the context of military operations?
Yeah im not denying that part of that list is correct, im questioning the more ridiculous shit of it.
Amnesty International / Haaretz on torture of children
United Nations / Reuters on torture/processing of children by military courts
Suspects frequently interrogated in unrecorded sessions and denied access to independent doctors - Haaretz
Long piece by Haaretz about the systematic torture deployed by Shin Bet
Shin Bet admits torture of detainees - BBC
Sexual intimidation and rape of women and children - MEE
Sexual harassment and intimidation of Palestinian detainees
In addition, here's JPost complaining about Shin Bet's use of torture and sexual harassment against a group of Israeli children who murdered a toddler with a firebomb.
Even Israeli's consider it to be torture and sexual intimidation - at least when it's against their own.
Jailhouse informants, sexual harassment
Court quashes minor's confession extracted under duress in Duma ..
Amid torture claims, court to rule on use of confessions in Jewi..
Confessions of Jews accused of murdering Palestinians admissible..
https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Ticking-bomb-limit-on-enhanced-interrogation-is-dead-560393
Thank you!
This is how you respond to requests to source your claims, I believe some posters in this thread should be taking notes here.
These reports indeed demonstrate what I have been saying here and elsewhere, that these acts happen in the full knowledge of the leadership who, while not always encouraging such actions actively, do absolutely nothing to stop them, sometimes even viewing them as absolute necessities that are an acceptable price to pay for a little security for the general Israeli population which they believe they represent.
I can also assure you that the majority of Israelis has no idea that these reports exist, that the a large part of those who do know of these reports think them fabrications and lies, and that a few who do not - still think these kind of actions are somehow justifiable in the prevention of "civil unrest". This is one of the actual problems plaguing this region, apathy in the face of cruelty as long as the targets are "on the other side" and negligence when it comes to preventing such things, not some grand plan of genocide executed by the few people in power.
This is also how one properly attacks practice by Israeli authorities on the ground - by pointing fingers at specific actors which are to be dealt with as required. All in all, a great post.
The thing is it's not just apathy is it?
A lot Israeli's just flat out support it wholeheartedly - or they disagree with Likud, but see they policies as the price of (their own) freedom and peace.
Certainly on facepunch many Israeli posters KNOW what is going on, and fully support it while trying to deflect criticism.
Or worse yet, they are _part of the atrocities_.
We have actual fucking war criminals /on facepunch/.
I whole heartedly disagree with several posters on facepunch and occasionally find their views abhorrent, but calling some person who browses and hl2 mod forum a "war criminal" is a bit much, dont you think?
If you want to be taken seriously, don't make outlandish claims
we had a kiddy diddler, several sociopaths, a guy who killed animals for fun because "he liked hearing them scream", and an unrepentant murderer or two, but this is the first time I've heard of there being a facepunch war criminal. /s
Of course it's not just apathy - there is a concerningly significant number of Israelis which are fully aware of the actions of the agencies of their government and see no real problem with what is being done (or worse, think the same agencies don't go far enough), but from what I've seen (pointless anecdote, I'm aware) it does not seem to me like most people are even aware of how bad things really are on the ground (some of which, when told, simply dismiss it as lies and propaganda by opposing interest groups) and some of those who are aware simply do nothing because it is not an easy thing to go against the machinery of the state in what is possibly the most militarized society on the planet. You wouldn't believe just how toxic political culture is over here.
Can you find me a single Israeli on these forums which will support the things you have linked, or worse - which has taken part in such acts? I'd bet you a good sum you won't find a single one.
I certainly hope your qualification for who counts as a war criminal doesn't involve "anyone who has served in any capacity in the IDF" because if that's the case then sure we have about a dozen of those on the forums - myself included. I also hope it does not somehow involve categorizing anyone which has supported any law enforcement organization (including the army) either by actions or words, because that is the kind of logic used here to paint entire villages as "terrorist sympathizers" by certain politicians.
Surely, there is a difference between calling baseless claims what they are and asking for alternative solutions, and deflecting criticism against and/or justifying for war crimes? And even if the latter is true, surely that doesn't make the person typing the post a war criminal?
It is also worth noting that Likud aren't somehow singlehandedly responsible for every single action as listed previously because some of these are very easily explained by a culture of extreme tolerance for the use of force to achieve goals in just about every law enforcement organization here - civilian, military, and those in between, and that is to say not just against arabs but anyone detained in certain circumstances.
It's important to condemn more than just a single political party here to get any actual change done.
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