If You Don't Want To Be Called A Fascist, Stop Supporting Donald Trump - Polidicks

This is the shit my stepmom says "I'm sick of the Clintons, the Bush's, we need someone who's on the outside of it all!" *votes for a literal billionaire*

I don't like Trump but he's not a fucking fascist, he's just a bad politician. Stop throwing around words you don't know the meaning of.

How about you just watch the video before responding with already very tired and very weak arguments people have explained away

His arguments for trumps "fascism" are tenuous at best and could be applied to most conservatives. Fascism is a lot more than what he describes.

Okay, can you apply them to more conservatives in this context? Can you specify which arguments from the video you're talking about? Can you specify how his definition of fascism is wrong?

That seems like more of a commentary on how evil conservatives are than how broad the video is

He focuses a lot on the nationalism aspect of Trump, despite nationalism being a major part of most conservative movements. Fascism is characterised by an extreme form of nationalism, beyond anything that Trump has so far done. He also ignored the economic aspect of fascism, considering Trump is more on the free marketeer side of economics, rather than a state controlled mixed economy like fascism. So far I have yet to see Trump push for eternal war, while the US has been involved in certain conflicts under his presidency, it's certainly no more than the likes of Obama. Trump largely stays out of warfare since getting into other peoples wars isn't very popular among the US right. The rest of this guys arguments just seem to boil down to Trumps arrogant mannerisms, which while they have been used by fascists, doesn't make someone a fascist. Criticise Trump by all means, he's a dreadful incompetent president, but seeing people childishly throw the term fascist around like this is embarrassing.

This, I repeat what I have said in earlier threads - read the book he mentioned in the earlier video titled "Fascism: A Very Short Introduction", it itself addresses how the concept of Ur-Fascism put forth by Umberto Eco is useless in identifying actual fascist movements as it is completely unfalsifiable and is very similar to the logic of conspiracy theory in that regard. Trump is both less and more than a fascist, that he is different from a fascist does not make what he does in any way excusable, only making the term "fascist" an inaccurate one to use.

In the video, he characterizes at as a regional aspect dependent on the nation in question. In this case, he laid out several different qualifiers as to why Trumpism is along those exact same lines. Specify why he's wrong. I don't think you know what fascism is now. Fascism is happy, fucking thrilled even, to let the Free Market continue to do it's own thing as long as it's not getting in the way of the states goals. Fasicm doesn't take state ownership of the means of production. Do you know what fascism is? Fascism doesn't mean pushing for an eternal war either. It means making an enemy, and keeping them as an enemy for as long as possible. He has done that in various different fields of american life and economics. Do you disagree? Does he largely stay out of warfare, or are you largely ignorant of the things he's involved with? The US has been at war in Yemen for 2 years nearly now. The US launched a huge barrage of Tomahawk missles not even a year ago. Are you sure he's as "Unwarlike" as you are advertising here? Hey, you DIDN'T watch the video! If you did, you'd see there was a lot more to that than "Just boil down to" whatever you feel comfortable handwaving away Seeing people argue about a term they apparently don't understand is the thing that gets me laughing really.

Yes I do know what fascism is and I know from history that most fascist movements did not like the free market. While they certainly permitted the operation of a market economy, it was always under the watchful eye of the state and the government would often seize control of production of it needed to. Free market capitalism was characterised in Nazi germany as being a Jewish idea that was bleeding the country dry. Mixed economy is an important component of fascism as fascists like to have total control over everything that goes on in their country, including the economy. the rest of this guys so called qualifiers are so broad they could encompass most conservative movements. Fascism is much more authoritarian than anything trump has so far done.

What point are you actually going to allow people to be upset about the things he's done to protect himself? For fucks sakes I genuinely don't think you're a Trump supporter but this is stupid. He's about to appoint a Justice to the SC who has explicitly stated that Presidents shouldn't be capable of being removed from office or investigated while in office. I think you heard the list of things he listed, and just fucking tuned out and stopped listening. That's fine. But don't lie to me, or to yourself in saying Because all that shows me is you're being ignorant as all fuck as to what is ACTUALLY happening in the US.

I never said you're not allowed to be upset by what Trump is doing, I already stated I think he's a crap president, he's just not a fascist.

Who said I have no definition to use? The concept of Ur-Fascism as it was originally used describes the kind of properties necessary in a movement that has the inherent potential to mature into fascism, or as is more likely these days, something very similar to it. There are many other definitions of fascism put forth by actual experts on the subject that are very different, for example, in the words of Gentile, an actual historian on the subject: a mass movement with multiclass membership in which prevail, among the leaders and the militants, the middle sectors, in large part new to political activity, organized as a party militia, that bases its identity not on social hierarchy or class origin but on a sense of comradeship, believes itself invested with a mission of national regeneration, considers itself in a state of war against political adversaries and aims at conquering a monopoly of political power by using terror, parliamentary politics, and deals with leading groups, to create a new regime that destroys parliamentary democracy; an 'anti-ideological' and pragmatic ideology that proclaims itself antimaterialist, anti-individualist, antiliberal, antidemocratic, anti-Marxist, is populist and anticapitalist in tendency, expresses itself aesthetically more than theoretically by means of a new political style and by myths, rites, and symbols as a lay religion designed to acculturate, socialize, and integrate the faith of the masses with the goal of creating a 'new man'; a culture founded on mystical thought and the tragic and activist sense of life conceived of as the manifestation of the will to power, on the myth of youth as artificer of history, and on the exaltation of the militarization of politics as the model of life and collective activity; a totalitarian conception of the primacy of politics, conceived of as an integrating experience to carry out the fusion of the individual and the masses in the organic and mystical unity of the nation as an ethnic and moral community, adopting measures of discrimination and persecution against those considered to be outside this community either as enemies of the regime or members of races considered to be inferior or otherwise dangerous for the integrity of the nation; a civil ethic founded on total dedication to the national community, on discipline, virility, comradeship, and the warrior spirit; a single state party that has the task of providing for the armed defense of the regime, selecting its directing cadres, and organizing the masses within the state in a process of permanent mobilization of emotion and faith; a police apparatus that prevents, controls, and represses dissidence and opposition, including through the use of organized terror; a political system organized by hierarchy of functions named from the top and crowned by the figure of the 'leader,' invested with a sacred charisma, who commands, directs, and coordinates the activities of the party and the regime; corporative organization of the economy that suppresses trade union liberty, broadens the sphere of state intervention, and seeks to achieve, by principles of technocracy and solidarity, the collaboration of the 'productive sectors' under control of the regime, to achieve its goals of power, yet preserving private property and class divisions; a foreign policy inspired by the myth of national power and greatness, with the goal of imperialist expansion. Many of which, indeed, are exemplified by both the GOP in its current form (not just Trump) and in fact has been exemplified by them for quite some time now. You might notice, however, the absence of points 1, 2, 3, (for now) 6 and 7, and arguably perhaps even point 4 (though it sure seems to be getting there). The rest are points one might easily find other words for without a necessity to use the fascist label which would indeed not properly convey neither practice or ideology just yet (however, I will not disagree that the potential for actual fascism is becoming greater and greater with what Trump is doing (and the GOP are enabling) to political discourse in America. He is not a fascist (yet), and neither are the republicans (yet), but they are definitely authoritarian, imperialist, populist and exclusionary warhawks in both ideology and practice. Do not mistake my semantic disagreement with the use of the label fascist as any kind of endorsement of the absolute danger posed by Trump's rhetoric, which is completely identical to that of fascism.

That's not exclusively what fasicsm is and if you're only going to listen when the warnings are super and hyper specific to that scenario, you'll be fucked.

It is what fascism is, the criteria this guy is using are ridiculously vague and broad, probably intentionally so to bring as many people on the other side of the political landscape from him under the fascist umbrella. Trump has had an entire year of presidency and has so far not pulled anything remotely close to the likes of Hitler, Mussolini or any other fascist figures from the past.

We are rapidly approaching this. I think if you looked at this and adapted it for todays world you'd see this is what's occurring. I don't think applies here. That is happening. Luckily no, but I believe there may be some arguable parallels of weaker strength occurring now. Thankfully also a no at this time. Also currently no, but if we look at things like Stormy Daniels recent arrest we can see individuals acting outside the law. However the size of the government, it's overall bureaucratic nature saves it so far. Well they're certainly trying to get this going. Currently a no. This is pretty much happening whenever Trump represents the US. Not all other representatives are this tactless as of yet luckily. Fair enough that under this specific definition he isn't a fascist, but I don't think it's fair to toss out the definition used in the video even if this is your preferred definition. The only thing preventing him from really gathering as much power as he'd like to have is that the government has gotten so large, so slow and so inefficient as to be hard to control through any means at all.

Whether he achieves the absolute power exemplified by fascism or not should be irrelevant in the efforts of people who can very clearly see the damage he has already done and continues to do to american politics, is my main point. That some people require him to be a fascist in order to better oppose him is what bothers me, I don't find that sort of thing productive - this fussing over labels in order to rally the opposition, I believe it actually counterproductive to undermining his support.

This just tells me that you did not watch the full video. Not only is he quoting books on fascism and ur-fascism, he's applying and contrasting them to Trump's actions up until now. It's about the steps leading up to this authoritarian fascism as you describe, and where we are on this ladder. If you watched it you would know this.

I don't see a candidate mirroring Trump but on the left being a possibility. US politics are too right wing for that. The most left candidate that has been a serious contender recently was probably Bernie Sanders. I think you'd probably have to be in a heavily left leaning country for such a candidate to be a real possibility.

I hate trump a whole fucking lot, but to call all of his supporters fascist is actually autistic and untrue. There are people that feel like he is/was going to make the economy better and actually create jobs. And most people I've met only support him for that reason.

After all this time and all of these events, no. That doesn't hold up

What about the people that supported him before his shitstorm of a presidency? Who thought this clown was going to make jobs? Were they fascist at that time?

Even in the title it says "if you don't want to be called a fascist, STOP supporting Donald Trump"

To me this post implies that something is wrong with conservatism. Which would make sense, Trump hardly won the presidency alone.

Knock it off. I give a lot of people the benefit of the doubt for voting for Trump in 2016. Yeah, he said wild shit, but he was populist and promised to protect people's jobs and look out for the little guy. I can see why people would be drawn to that aspect, especially when Hillary was a wet blanket promising more of the same shit that people were sick of. However, it's not 2016. It's been two years. The jury is in: Trump's an establishment bitch boy looking out for the rich and powerful and using execute authority to oppress minorities and destroy their families. You don't get to just brush that off because you like what he says about trade policy. If you still support him while he's doing that, you're either very ignorant of what he's doing or just a terrible person. This isn't a hard question.

Willing to bet good money you dont even understand that word or even read the book.

That's because Conservatives tend to sell their souls to facists during the rise of Facism. The reason why conservatives sound like facists is because...well, they are. Right now.

The term tempcon was actually looking for was "alternative facts," not "newspeak."

I want to be upfront, I do agree with some things conservatives have stood for in the past. But the conservative voices happening now are not the same as the ones before and are in stark opposition to the conservative voice of old.

I did watch it, Ur-Fascism is a shitty definition of fascism, the one posted by Newb is much more accurate to what fascism was historically. Ur-Fascism could be applied to various right wing ideologies that aren't really fascism. The problem is people seem to feel the need to declare someone a fascist to criticise someones ideology. You can be critical of an ideology that isn't fascism.