Far-right "Proud Boys" filmed beating protesters in New York - Polidicks

That's also not true. Occupy Wall Street is textbook Socdem. Again, if it's not reacting to facism it's not antifa. You're putting words in the mouths of people who never spoke them. The point of occupy wall street was to create a cultural response to the subprime/mortgage crisis of 2008, not to «facism». The only mention of facism in occupy was in relation to the stronghanded police intervention against peaceful protesters. For all intents and purposes these protesters became «occupy democrats», not «antifa», and they still advocate for civil disobedience to this very day. But thanks for showcasing your special blend of reactionnary politics and overall ignorance of the matter at hand I guess. I've never heard anyone make a claim as stupid as «OWS invented antifa», let alone antifa being an American invention. Do your homework.

I really hate this duplicitous shit about every perceived slight making immediate escalation completely okay. Bringing assault rifles to protests, killing counter-protestors, bragging about how much the police love you, getting off scot-free after being caught planning an assassination, it's all good because "antifa came first" Plant ignorance, sow hatred, reap enough misery for all except those who can afford to import.

We have laws known as "fighting words", limitations on free speech. Calling someone a Nazi, who isn't, is a breach on freedom of speech. Again, still no refutal because there is no argument against.

ive tried reading this post several times over and i still have no real idea what youre trying to say and how it is at all related to what i said. all im saying is that hypothetically, in the absence of the law protecting me from persistent verbal abuse or the absence of cops around to enforce it, i see no moral imperative stopping me from punching somebody in the face for not ceasing to throw words with the intent to harm - whats legal or illegal has no bearing on my argument here. that is to say, i see no problem with violence as a means to the end of getting somebody trying to verbally hurt you to shut the fuck up if other methods failed already. conscious bullies deserve no mercy.

God damn I miss when this section had rules. I'm genuinely sorry for the people trying to have an argument in good faith while people like Metist and Eddie are beating strawmen to pieces made of the cherry-picked statements they find most convenient to bash. Internet conservatives bitch and moan about how "liberals need moderated spaces to survive" but time and time again it's demonstrated to be the opposite. Conservative rhetoric cannot survive anywhere where there are standards of honesty or accountability to one's statements. It is built on a foundation of disinformation, willful ignorance, spite, and misdirection. Case in point, in a thread about right-wing violence, these posters have done nothing but derail the thread into a discussion on left-wing violence by making deliberately obtuse statements so detached from reality and logic that people feel obligated to ask what the fuck they're on about. The response is deliberately misconstrued or ignored and the original fallacy doubled-down on until we're seven pages into a dead-end discussion and the original topic is woefully forgotten. People here aren't defending socialism, they aren't defending Antifa, they're defending the truth. Refuting an untrue statement about a thing is not defending that thing, and it's nauseating that these people think they can use such immature and subversive fallacies to discolor and smear those who disagree with them and fuel their own biases and delusions. This is what these people do. They distract, they project, they lie, they hurl insults, and they try to get you talking about anything other than the problems they're causing. They don't care if it ruins their image or makes everyone hate them. Once you've sold your soul, what more do you have to lose? If our mods can't help us, we need to curate topics ourselves. Refuse to be distracted or pulled away on these tangents that inevitably get started when the right is criticized. Rate dumb and move on. What's at stake is too important to get hung up like this.

Take a look at how this post relates to just about everything else said in this thread, how do you think you sound to yourself when you write this? You're so fucking full of yourself that people explaining basic cause-and-effect is "pigeon chess" to you.

The far right has been on the rise for the better part of 40 years now. Antifa only became a thing again three or so years ago.

Black Bloc and forms of Antifa have existed for decades mate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-WWII_anti-fascism Just the US movement is relatively new, but this behavior isn't that new

Black bloc peeps were involved in that occupy thing too.theyve been around for a while

So is anyone going to elaborate how supporting a tactic like antifa is acceptable when it seems to consistently results in collateral damage, or you guys just going to spam ratings? Serious question though, how do you guys see disorganized violence benefiting the movement against the far right? How does it just not make the rest of us lose integrity in the overall message? I’m not saying violence can’t sometimes work, but disorganized violence is a sure way to fail.

I'm curious as to where your morals got so fucked up that a broken window is worth more objection than someone getting the shit kicked out of them by a group of bigots screaming slurs at them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUFvG4RpwJI Shut up and learn something. I don't care how late this is, I know you haven't learned anything yet. Learn something.

I agree with almost all of this post except the broad-stroke painting of conservatives at large. This is not all of us. I know what you mean, but please be clearer.

I think the issue is the crazies screaming drowns out the moderate/compassionate conservatives, possibly intentionally as a tactic. Similar to antifa really, some peeps peacefully protesting what they deem to be facism but then a buncha gimps in black hoods turn up, fuck shit up and give everyone involved a bad name.

In just a few days, we have both this going on and Trump praising someone for bodyslamming a journalist but it's antifa that some chucklefucks in here are more concerned about. I'm not sure whether I should laugh or sigh in disappointment.

I don't support violence. I will, however, argue on antifa's side when the point being made against them is that their extremism breeds radicalization on the other side of the spectrum - yet the same isn't said of far-right extremists, and they're instead treated as a natural, almost justifiable response to violence, apparently not generating any extremism on their own, or taking on any responsibilities for their views.

Antifa are not good people just because they fight bad people, they're just bad people fighting worse people. Obama's DHS and FBI all considered Antifa to be a radical left-wing group and potential terror threat, as well as being the primary instigators of violence during their rise in the mid 2010's. The report cites concerns that right-wing violence will increase in response to left-wing violence, and culminate in both sides bringing firearms. We've already had examples of firearms brandishing by both sides, mostly the fascist side, and thankfully nobody has started shooting yet. Of course nobody wants to die at a protest-turned-shootout, neither the fascists nor antifa, at least not yet.

Reading it back, I realize I did come off that way and I apologize. I should have been clearer that I was talking about the far right obfuscation brigade specifically.

Can you please stop saying that? There's no requirement to be a communist to join the antifa. Anyone can join the antifa. The reason there's is no leader is because if there was, he or she would be an easy target for neo nazis.

I can't believe they have to give up their hobby of being full-time wankers for the entire duration of the cereal test

Bingo, the whole point of Antifa is there's literally no leader, no organization, not even much shared ideology beyond the apparently revolutionary idea that the group who tried to destroy the world are bad.

Somewhere about the same time as when you forgot how to read, because that clearly is not what I said or was implying. My criticism of antifa is that so far it has been ineffective, inefficient, and targets the wrong people. As a political movement they are practically toothless. They have no coherent strategy and only go after small fry like pro fascist rallies and speakers instead of those who receive the most benefit from allowing fascists to exist in the first place. There is so much wasted potential here. If you really want make an impact, the long term strategy can’t just be “pelt Nazis and hope for the best” because that isn’t going to cut it. If the best resistance movement society has to offer is limited to just committing random acts of violence with varying accuracy, then we were already doomed from the beginning. A few broken windows doesn’t go nearly far enough, especially when you can’t even aim at the right targets.

That picture is not an accurate depiction of what is going on. Your perception that anybody that antifa opposes and commits violence against must proactively be identified as a fascist just because a long time ago in the 30s a different contingent of antifa opposed actual fascists does not align with the reality that the majority of antifa actions in the modern US have not been against fascists, and have often been against people who are simply right-leaning, or just people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time which includes left-leaning individuals. Yes there were peaceful protestors but there were also black bloc antifa rioters. I did not claim that "Occupy Wall Street invented Antifa" I claimed that Antifa showed up at Occupy Wall Street long before the proud boys, or any actual far-right demonstrators that are relevant right now existed in the US at all. Nowhere did I assert that the people who became "Occupy Democrats" were the same as the black bloc rioters. You're the one putting words in my mouth. The earliest you could get is that the Traditionalist Worker's Party, which actually is a far-right neo nazi political group, was founded in 2013. They actually disbanded earlier this year. Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer both are ideologically discrete from any kind of neo-nazi movement and were also both founded in 2016, five years after the mainstream emergence of Antifa at OWS. Proud Boys' emergence is largely in response to the actions taken by Antifa during the 2016 election cycle.

I think that's the root of the problem and confusion here. Antifa is not really a movement because to be a movement there would have to be some level of coordinated effort. It's not a movement as much as it is a label that people have chosen to do actions under. The idea that I could put on a hoodie and walk outside and do a thing, and then have the country say "Look at what Antifa did" is something that should set off some red flags that maybe we're wasting our time comparing a group of like-minded individuals who've banded together to protect/promote an ideology to the mere concept of opposing that group. I feel as though some people are misinterpreting the situation as "These guys VS those guys" when in actuality its "These guys VS any and all rebellion against these guys" which is apples to oranges imo.

Hilarous, the people actually trying to argue are the bad ones and the ones responding with shitposts or non arguments (including yours) are the real good guys. The only reason my arguments aren't good yet the many non arguments and ad hominens are good is because I dare have a different opinion than the recent overflow of hivemind think. You haven't made an argument and you wont even bother since just appealing to the commie hivemind is easier. I have not made a single strawman. There are people justifying Antifa's actions, this is wrong. There are people calling non fascists fascists, this is wrong. There are people saying communist countries don't kill/imprison political enemies, this is wrong. I have proven all of my points or at the very least argued them in good faith. Yet a good percentage of responses are just pathetic bitching. I am still willing to argue but it's clear that a lot of the thread either never wanted to argue in the first place or stopped once they started losing. You are a hypocrite and I feel sorry for the sane posters who still post her from before this place become an idiotic circle jerk.

Rate him dumb and move on, folks, nothing more to be done. Let him stew in the sepsis he's created for himself. Remember, if he were actually being met with this much frustration while trying to debate honestly instead of just trolling and stirring the pot, he would have left already.

Not an argument. Why don't you actually try honest debate for once?

Also hint, for anti-fascists to exist, there must first be fascists. It's not as if fascists are popping up, because of antifa So you are saying that your anti-fascist beliefs would not exist if there are no fascists? What a fucking stupid sentence.

Technically not true. Even if all Fascists were erased from existence the amount of innocent people called Fascist would likely remain the same since pretty much no one actually knows what Fascism is these days. Godwin's law holds no matter the amount of actual Nazis happen to be in a specific area.

That was a really shit attempt at a pedantic gotcha. Good job.