You disregarding voter suppression, as well as the litany of other issues like gerrymandering or otherwise is not "People can't comprehend things". It's YOU CAN'T comprehend things you don't like.
Those are facts, and they are facts that at the heart of it, question the validity of american democracy. You, in your wisdom, think this is something to be "Content with" but it's blatantly obvious all you're doing is peddling your well heeled ignorance as knowledge.
It's transparent as fuck and no one cares.
your initial post had nothing to do with what you responded to
this isnt about people not comprehending your point, its about them taking issue with the fact you just conjured up an image of what the post was saying and replied to it instead
if you think people got you wrong, clarify what you mean instead of whining "wow im so misunderstood woe is me"
*Vomits logical fallacies*
"Hey those are logical fallacies"
"Instead of calling out my logical fallacies, why don't you actually debate?"
it's like a conservative gimmick troll in its simplest form.
Yeah you never completely ignore things that run contrary to your narrativ-
Oh wait, look! A counterpoint to your "argument" that you've conveniently glossed over! What an absolutely unrelated coincidence!
Nationalism is the ideology that caused the 2 world wars and most wars since and before that. It's the filth behind totalitarist regimes. It opposes peace and human rights. If you identify as a nationalist you're a dangerous extremist valuing state power over personnal freedoms and world peace.
Open a single history book about the 20th century if you think otherwise. Go watch some documentary about the totalitarian regimes causing the most man made deaths in history only a few decades ago. Educate yourself about the progress we've done since. By saying proudly he's a nationalist, Trump is undermining all of it, and the whole world is looking.
You are accused of strawmanning because that's what you just did
If you want reasonable arguments, at least try to act like it
Do you even know what a strawman is?
You do know there's a difference between "we don't want illegal immigration" and "let's split up families of illegal immigants, lose track of which children go to which families, lose track of over a thousand of said children, and explicitly say we want to make them afraid", right?
"Irresponsibly losing track of over a thousand children as a fear-inducing deterrent to own the libs!!"
oh YEAH SURE, seems like you're perfectly okay with NATIONALISM, THANKS THAT WE MADE THAT CLEAR
I thought my stance on that counterpoint was already self-explanatory from earlier posts, but I guess not.
Nationalism at its simplest is putting one's nation and its residents importance over of other
Now don't go running on me and saying that it's not, Nationalism phenomenon isn't exclusive to one country and one culture and one dictionary definition which you can cherry pick to your arguments
Quote conventiently extremizes Nationalism and considering that thread is about Trump, it was painting him in that extremized 'not so real' role which I didn't like so I replied.
The part y'all are not really keen on was just me bringing up one of major things for which people are calling Trump worse than Hitler and all other extremized stuff
If you want me to elaborate
I really don't believe theres anything wrong with what happens at the border
Spendings in time and country's resources on keeping illegal immigrants as if they were in some kind of Hotel wouldn't be so small
Theres giant quantities of illegal immigrants that need to be done something about
And now imagine realistically keeping every part of that process flawless.
Nobody forced them to do it, they know the possible consequences if they tried to illegally cross the border
You may say that they were forced by life-threatening situations or poverty
But law is law, we don't suddenly let burglar go free because he stole so that he can not starve
What does become of law if we start making exemptions for every case we get emotionally invested in?
We live in real world and empathy isn't going to make suddenly stuff pop up out of thin air.
Spend that money, personnel, resources and time on issues happening within country, not some illegals that tried to sneak into it, especially if their amounts are as enormous as they are right now and they knew the consequences.
Hope that satisfies my not so clear earlier posts
I'm not just random troll, those are my beliefs
duh
"huuurrr durrr guys look at my strawman"
"fuck off retard"
"THIS IS WHY THE ALT RIGHT WON"
Separating kids from their parents(A point of genocide is "to separate children from their families") is okay with you?
Gerrymandering? Voter suppression?
See, when we criticize this shit, and you aren't even aware of the details of it, and you somehow believe it's okay, it's not a stretch to see why we think you're wrong as fuck.
People in the administration have OUTRIGHT SAID that policies are meant to be so horrible that they scare potential immigrants from trying to come over. That's not law enforcement, that's using a violation of human rights as a deterrent. Also, they're doing the same shit against people seeking asylum, which breaks international law. Don't talk about how important the law is and then overlook that.
You literally take any point your opposition makes to its extreme so thats its easier for you to discredit....you are doing the fucking definition of strawmanning.
As for what I think, these people are trying to apply for asylum and we wont let them over either stupid racism or worship of laws despite many laws being completely inhumane and made unjustly by lobbyists, which by the way the right have no interest in combating.
How much time do people think they have to sit around and wait for an immigration trial that is very heavily biased against them? Their fucking kids are in danger and they arent illegal immigrants they are refugees.
Take off your political goggles for a minute and realize these are fucking human beings, how else do you even get asylum without fleeing from a fucking warzone.
your post was a random jab without regards to anything, and just came off as rude.
take a deep breath, and try to post in a polite manner. things get heated in this section but I have seen plenty of examples of conservatives putting out and engaging good arguments. you can do better than this.
Ok so just so we're clear, you're happy with this
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/297971/6ab8e132-38c8-4c47-8d6c-99414a5faf0a/image.png
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/297971/dc09a015-b2b2-4d98-ba02-0a0790fe6a07/image.png
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/297971/9356c317-ca64-45aa-a4d9-7a7ad8ec91fd/image.png
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/297971/12f29c09-e9ad-4df2-b200-365b71bb82e0/image.png
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/297971/b1a7929d-3d60-436b-abeb-cbc93cc0a4d0/image.png
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/297971/8c361b38-443c-4b5e-8385-c72ccbadecd2/image.png
just a reminder that this guy's country is 99% white and he's the one user whining about immigration in a conversation about nationalism
I've never said that I approve of everything that Trump/GOP does or has done,
I'm not really okay with gerrymandering and voter suppression things.
If it wasn't clear enough,
My reply was about quote's extremized definition of Nationalism and what person who posted it, implied with it.
it's kinda obvious who it tried to refer to with that quote, judging by thread's title and subject..
Do you have exact numbers for how giant these numbers of immigrants are? Do you have sources for their numbers?
You say you don't believe there's anything wrong with what's happening at the border, are you are aware of the full scope of what is actually happening there?
Are you aware of the deaths, the physical, psychological, and sexual abuse?
Are you aware that the Tinyhands administration separated entire families with no plan for reuniting them?
Are you aware of the conditions of the camps?
What is your opinion on ICE targeting immigration activists for deportation?
What are these immigrants actually doing that's such a risk to the United States?
What is the threat these immigrants actually pose?
Do you know the population of the United States? Do you know the percentage of illegal immigrants living amidst the total population
Where do you get your information on these immigrants?
Have you done much research to challenge your own beliefs?
Where did you do this research?
Who were your primary sources for building your understanding?
And y'know what, might as well repurpose this old post addressing the whole law and order thing
There seems to be some strange notion that since laws are ostensibly supposed to protect people, all laws must in some way be protecting people, and it must be right and good to follow the law and the lawful processes, and that to break the law automatically means you're a bad person who deserves only the worst treatment
It's especially strange when you see it in Americans who have basically built an entire cult of personality around the founding fathers and their rebellion, as well as manner of minor personality cults for people who broke unjust laws and spat in the face of corrupt systems. Oh yeah, there's also that supposed American ideal for Justice. Things like the right to a fair trial and innocent until proven guilty and all men created equal etc.
Slavery was legal, does that mean it was right?
Some nations still have the death penalty for homosexuality, is that right?
Just about every genocide you can name had a state authority behind it sanctioning the whole affair, making them all nice and legal, were they right?
From the second Hitler took power, every step of the Holocaust was perfectly legal
What the fuck does a thing being legal or illegal have to do with anything?
Laws are a product of the state, they do not and can not exist in a vacuum, they will always be a direct reflection on the state and the time they're a product of
What if the people penning the law are not doing it to protect people?
What if they are not just and moral protectors of the people?
What if they are corrupt, racist, power hungry, money hungry, violent, or authoritarian?
I just get so confused about this 'they broke the law!' argument. It seems to rely entirely on a deliberately narrow, ignorant, and quite frankly naive world view
It has to be deliberate, because at this point it's literally impossible to not know that there's a whole fuck of a lot more to immigration than just 'bad mans break law'. It's just straight up willful ignorance to leave it at 'they broke the law' and insist that's all there is to it
Nobody wakes up and decides they want to uproot their entire existence and move it to a foreign country on a whim. Mexico is a fucking terrible place, by and large, and people have taken it upon themselves to take the risks to get to the United States, and they take even more risks to get into the United States despite the party in power so aggressively demonizing the entire concept of being brown
For some reason, I never see the law and order advocates ever questioning why they might have done that. It's not exactly a small risk, coming to the United States. On top of the flagrantly racist party that controls at least half the government at any given time, just getting to the border can be a nightmare in and of itself. There's an entire criminal cottage industry based around just getting people to the border, not even over the border, just somewhere near it, to get in contact with the other cottage industry of the crossings themselves, which are fraught with even more dangers. We sure hear a lot about how many illegal immigrants make it across the border, but you don't hear quite as much about how many of them die on the way, and even less about how many of those were killed by the people who were supposed to be helping them
But all this context isn't important. It puts an inconveniently human face on the problem. It's a lot less easy to turn it into a childish game of cops and robbers, where the robbers are just the bad guys and the cops are just the good guys, and nobody has to think about little Simon Gonzales sitting in a big chainlink and concrete cube crying his little eyes out while ICE agents ask him strange and upsetting questions in a language he doesn't understand because he is four years old because his parents took a chance on giving him a better life than the one he would have had in Cartel country and apparently that's grounds enough for him to never see them again
This might look like an emotional argument, and honestly I wish it was, but this is just the flat fact of the world we live in right now
Maybe right now is not the best time to be putting the concept of 'law and order' on a pedestal and making snap judgements based purely on a gut reaction to someone breaking a law
Nationalism is nationalism, it IS an extreme ideology you goof. It's literally a step removed from outright Fascism.
You're wrong.
Save some face, and learn how to admit "I am wrong" because your life will be easier when you can admit something that you said is factually fucking wrong.
You know, I would bet that if you started out with a genuine argument about your position rather than jabs at other people, you would have been much better received.
But sure, just believe that its just because you think differently.
Nobody is forcing them to do it
https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/americas/100000003901101/central-america-child-migrants.html
I had the same opinions as you. This exact video changed my opinion on it, we watched it in a class I took recently.
Nationalism is such a broad term that this could mean anything. I hate to argue semantics, but could you specify if you mean chauvinist nationalism, ala Mussolini and Hitler, or as in ethnic nationalism, like Chechen nationalism where a 'nation' clamours for an independent state?
There are various forms of nationalism, many of which gave us the modern-nation states today where a group of people were finally able to break the yoke of an Imperial master and rule themselves.
While its certainly been used for awful things, there has also been good.
Nationalism at its simplest is nothing but putting your nation's interests over others, that I think there is no disagreement about. But this already is an inherently problematic ideal.
What then if your (arbitrarily defined) nation's interests don't line up with what's good or just? As it happens again and again, people use it to justify evil as long as it benefits the nation, and by extension, themselves. The nation's benefit becomes this almost sacred value that can be used to bargain against other values like human rights.
That's why people dislike nationalism even at its basest level.
Nonetheless, based on everything Trump has said and done, his form of nationalism would be "extreme" by your definition I'm sure. He's not merely driving American's own interests, he's attacking other nations and groups of people to do so.
A common definition of nationalism means that you think your culture/country is superior to others. If you can't see why it has a bad connotation, I don't know what else to say.
https://i.imgur.com/nLBlRma.png
https://i.imgur.com/CybRBXB.png
https://i.imgur.com/nm7CZQi.png
https://i.imgur.com/Bp1QyEm.png
https://i.imgur.com/WtFD41X.png
https://i.imgur.com/dwi2wEC.png
Literally all these dictionaries include "belief that your country is superior to others/excessive patriotism".
But you're also ignoring one of the other key definitions listed there, that it's the wish for political independence of a group of people with the a shared language, culture, and history.
Or as wikipedia puts it.
Nationalism is a political, social, and economic system characterized by the promotion of the interests of a particular nation, especially with the aim of gaining and maintaining sovereignty (self-governance) over the homeland. The political ideology of nationalism holds that a nation should govern itself, free from outside interference and is linked to the concept of self-determination. Nationalism is further oriented towards developing and maintaining a national identity based on shared, social characteristics, such as culture and language, religion and politics, and a belief in a common ancestry. Nationalism, therefore, seeks to preserve a nation's culture, by way of pride in national achievements, and is closely linked to patriotism, which, in some cases, includes the belief that the nation should control the country's government and the means of production.
I don't know anyone who would disagree that nationalism has been used for bad things in the past, however it encompasses more than just those bad things. For example Polish and Irish independence, the calls for Scottish independence, Indian independence, etc... The ability for people to govern their own nation, by themselves, is itself a form of nationalism.
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