• Far-right insurgent Jair Bolsonaro elected President of Brazil
    249 replies, posted
Except for the part where it's one of the best places to do business. You are running out of oil, tho. https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/256730/a9da3ae2-ff83-4b3a-af34-a2aced72b250/image.png
So... Being a good place to do business means it's a right wing economy? I'm not sure I understand your logic behind this. Could you elaborate?
Norway's economy isn't right wing at all and they're one of the most stable and prosperous countries in the world. They have a mixed market system where the states owns key components of certain industries. It's the complete antithesis of Bolsonaro, who is pro privatization across the board.
Because no left-leaning country could ever work, Norway is now considered right-wing. Ragekipz wins the argument, works every time
I mean dont you know that 8 is less than 125, and therefore Norways economy is right wing. Ignore all knowledge of your own country, numbers dont lie.
I didn't say that Norway was right-wing. I said it has right-wing economics. The result of libertariam policies. Even if the government has a huge stake on the market, Norway would be to the right of countries like the US on the economical axis. Left leaning economics will gradually result in Venezuela.
Imagine going to a prestigious school to get a degree in economics, working in government for 30 years, then retiring to work at a think tank only to have your entire field destroyed by some dude on Facepunch who discovers the groundbreaking theory that leftist politics doesn't work because all failed states are leftist and all successful states are right-wing. The Norwegian economy is an example of a mixed economy, a prosperous capitalist welfare state and social democracy country featuring a combination of free market activity and large state ownership in certain key sectors. Libertarians are well known for welfare states and state ownership of key sectors.
Left leaning =/= socialism.
yes, right libertarian economic policies like *shuffles paper* nationalised key industry, progressive income tax and a comprehensive government funded welfare state?
Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland and the Netherlands have some of the most comprehensive and generous welfare states in the world. The welfare states in all these countries have very social democratic characteristics. Many of these countries were practically one party states because the social democratic parties (aka the left) were almost always in government. These are not right wing countries. Many ideas that would be considered radical in a country like the US are considered normal there.
Adopting left-wing economic policies to own the libs
I don't know of a single country where the government doesn't own anything and have no welfare, so you might as well say that nowhere is right wing.
It's not a binary system where it's either 1 or 0. As you know, it's more like a gradient between the various economical models In any case, please point out what specifically puts Norway to the right of the US, as you pointed out in this quote: Norway would be to the right of countries like the US on the economical axis
People of Norway have more economical freedom than people of US.
It isn’t as black and white as that. Whether a country is left wing or right wing within capitalism is usually determined by how much the goverment owns and how many people/risks the welfare states of those countries cover and how generous they are.
Economic freedom does not follow a strict line of left = less free and right = more free. It measures a personal ability to control your labor, own property, buy, and invest. A laissez-faire capitalist system would be a far right-wing economy but it would result in very little economic freedom because a worker is effectively powerless to negotiate his labor fairly in a system where the industry isn't compelled by government regulation to act in a reasonable way.
I was being sarcastic. That's why I compare Norway with other countries. Even with how much the state control in Norway.
This is the weirdest thing I've seen someone seriously try to argue on Facepunch in a while
what was your point again
How do you defend PT literally giving away our money, billions for dictatorships in Cuba, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Guinea, Congo, Angola and claiming they are democratic nations? How do you defend José Dirceu saying that PT should radicalize and take the power? Did you even check Haddad's government plan? When people say that the PT is not radical because they were in power and did not install a dictatorship, they just didn't do it because they failed to do it, they did not have the means, mainly the military means, in Venezuela Chavez managed to organize it, but Brazil is much larger, more people willing to fight them, and the crisis came much faster than they imagined, they had no way to stay in power despite trying everything. It's funny when you talk about fake news on whatsapp and actually believe it had any relevance in the end result, Brazil is only getting worse, people see members from PT and people linked to it getting arrested everyday due to corruption, we had the biggest renovation of the congress and senate in the history of Brazil in this election, but nope, "PT lost because of fake news on Whatsapp, people are too stupid to tell what is fake or not". To be quite honest, I have seen much more fake news in favor of Haddad in this campaign than in favor of Bolsonaro. And even in the mainstream media we see them putting on the main cover of their sites shitty news like that girl who supposedly was marked with swastika by Bolsonaro's voters, to later be proved that she did that to herself, but when real crimes happen where a family father says he votes for Bolsonaro and is brutally beaten to death in front of his daughter and his wife, you don't see a single piece of news in the mainstream media about it. PT has always committed electoral crimes in the past elections and even in this one, using Lula in the campaign even with specific determinations from TSE, with "santinhos", posters of Lula as a candidate. We had federal universities campaigning against Bolsonaro and in favor of Haddad, labor unions doing irregular propaganda, and even fake news in PT's OFFICIAL advertisements against Bolsonaro. PT never admits their mistakes, when Haddad lost the reelection for mayor in São Paulo, where he got 70% of rejection in his mandate, he said it only happened because Dilma's impeachment, not because his performance as a mayor, PT never recognizes their mistakes, they will never admit that Lula is corrupt, or that that Dilma actually comitted a “crime of responsibility”, it's always someone else's fault. When we have a candidate doing his campaign in a kitchen with a cheap cellphone, with a bad internet connection, with a team with extremely limited resources, with only 9 seconds of television against more than 12 minutes of PT, with all the media and celebrities making a campaign against him and yet he wins, it's because the population really can not stand PT anymore, It's not because of whatsapp. And yes that article summarizes what I think, I agree that Bolsonaro said tons of stupid things in the past that I don't agree with, yes he praised the military dictatorship and said it was necessary at the time, but he never said he is in favor of it happening again. I honestly believe the chances of a dictatorship happening with Bolsonaro is much lower than with PT. We definitely need more stringent laws, I agree the police needs to be better equipped, when Bolsonaro talked about shooting PT voters he obviously wasn't being literal and you can tell by watching it, I agree he shouldn't have said it but the media makes it turn into a much bigger thing than it actually is, much different than for example Ciro Gomes saying that if he ever gets an arrest warrant by Sergio Mouro he would receive it by shooting them, or that he would kidnap Lula from prision, or Guilherme Boulos promising that he would burn the country to the ground if Dilma was impeachmented, but things like that never gets our media attention. Bolsonaro is not my dream candidate, I didn't vote for him in the first round, but when I need to choose between Bolsonaro or PT, I don't even need to think twice.
The very fact that high-level PT officials were even able to be arrested under corruption charges speaks volumes. The rule of law was a pain in the fucking ass for PPT, and literally cost them a president and now an entire election. PT is full of corruption, no question - the difference is they capitulated to the rule of law when it came. Bolsonaro doesn't give a single shit about the rule of law, no matter how much he's screaming about fighting corruption. You are believing a disastrous and sinister lie told by every fascist in history. Putin was an anti-corruption advocate, and now he has a stranglehold on Russian politics and openly assassinates dissidents while enriching himself and his oligarchic peers. Trump's called for stronger rule of law - then proceeds to enrich his family and peers while openly attacking our federal law enforcement. I can guarantee you that he's not there to fight corruption and return the power to the people. He's there to consolidate power. His rhetoric makes it abundantly clear that he's A-OK with the violent suppression of political dissidents. He's openly admired military dictatorships. He's actively endorsed political violence to a seriously shocking degree. Does Brazil guarantee some degree of freedom of the press in the legal code? Watch him tear it to fucking shreds. He won't actually be violating the rule of law if he just shreds the law in front of your face and establishes new legal rules that let him freely jail or kill dissidents. I understand that the people are sick of the corruption of the status quo. I really do - everyone's sick of it in the US, too. But people are seriously underestimating the hellish societal damage that people like Bolsonaro can cause when in power. Do you think people thought Duterte was serious when he said drug dealers need to be massacred in the Philippines? What about when it started happening? What about when innocent people, or recovering drug addicts, or family members trying to protect their children from marauding gangs started being executed in the streets? When is "shooting PT voters" no longer a joke? Don't buy this anti-corruption shit. If and when the Brazilian legal system starts pursuing him for illegal activities, he'll dismantle it and rebuild it to suit his interests. He's already demonstrated interest in packing the Brazilian courts - the amount of danger your country is in is genuinely horrifying. The rule of law and norms of social and political behavior hold a society together - Bolsonaro wants to dismantle those. When he does, he's not going to rebuild it in a fair and equitable fashion - he's going to rig it to preserve his own power. You elected a fascist, and you won't realize it until much later, when it's far too late to change course.
I profess great ignorance into the politics of Brazil so I'll just take your word that PT really is as bad as you say but even then I'm not sure that would drive me to vote for someone like Bolsonaro, just based on what he has said about his beliefs. I'd abstain, or vote for another person. I'm also confused about how PT was too incompetent to turn the government into a dictatorship during their long years of government control but you also simultaenously feel they are much more capable of doing it than the guy who actually praises the previous military dictatorship. Your post reminds me of the ones we saw in the immediate aftermath of Trump's victory here in the US. You had a lot of people who clearly supported him trying to minimize the consequences of their victory and shove responsibility off to other people. "It's the media/SJW's/Democrats fault I voted for him, not ours!". Right alongside the familiar half-hearted assurances that "he wasn't being literal" and "I don't think he should have said that" when it's obvious to everyone that that kind of rhetoric is exactly why so many people supported him.
Yes, I absolutely think people are too stupid to tell what's fake or not. How else would the "kit gay" bullshit have worked out til the day of the election? Brazil is an educational fucking disaster, we have all been admitting that forever. Why do we deny it now? Why, when fake news and disinformation affects countries much more developed than ours, did Brazilians suddenly become immune to it? I don't think it was the defining factor in the election. I just don't fool myself into thinking the million dollar industry of targeted advertising is a sham and I'm the only one who figured it out. Of course they have an effect, don't deny such an obvious truth just because you're afraid to validate anti-Bolsonaro criticism. Also, there's this fact-check but you're free to call it leftist lies. As for the second bit, do you think hate crimes are equal on both sides? Are you at all going to acknowledge that your candidate believes in beating the gay out of people? Is there no justifiable cause to be afraid in the face of this shit? Do you think it's media bias, and Bolsonaro voters are being attacked just as much? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCkEwP8TeZY He's left the door open to it happening again by framing it as a necessary move by the army. "Graças aos militares nós hoje gozamos de democracia". To him, and to everyone else who believes the dictatorship was benign, the army was simply answering the nation's pleas. You may not believe in a full-blown dictatorship happening here, but please, know the path to authoritarianism is made up of many small steps, like information control. Bolsonaro quer que o Brasil volte a ser como há 40 ou 50 anos | .. Bolsonaro compara execu��es na ditadura a 'tapa no bumbum' | O P.. Our police is already heavily militarized and kills more than most countries. Where does crime come from? His "violence is dealt with violence" stance does not deal with the root causes of it. Lowering the age of criminal responsibility to 16, so we can send impoverished teens to overcrowded prisons, putting them in a place where they'll likely be drawn even deeper into the criminal world, rather than come out rehabilitated? Claiming our police should kill even more? You can't even call them band-aid fixes, they're not fixes at all. They do not deal with the real causes of crime. As for PT's being corrupt, the whole country acknowledged it. Lula is in jail, Dilma was impeached. We have never seen anything else like it in Brazil, feeling like corruption actually comes with a price. If Haddad had been elected, he'd be on some thin fucking ice, and there would be no end to opposition, since with PT's nationwide rejection being so high, it's an easy way to score political points. Plain and simple, even if we assume both candidate's worst impulses to be equally as bad - which I don't, Jair is far more dangerous in my view - I think the incentive to keep PT in check is massive, while Bolsonaro's authoritarian tendencies may make the very act of keeping him in check harder. Also, I'd like to ask for a source for the statement that PT was trying to make us into a dictatorship, please
Corruption is so ingrained into brazilian politics that it is safe to assume that all the majors parties are knee deep in corruption through out several decades. Hell , we have news every single day that politician X has been caught embezzling dozen of millions(if not hundreds) of reais from x,y,z government programs. Take a read on the police operation that has brought so much shit to light and see that pretty much every party is involved. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Car_Wash
The left cares not for the rights of man. For example any opposing viewpoint is considered hate speech by them. For those of us who are true center; free speech is paramount to the foundation of civilization. The rise in populism is the result of mankind acknowledging that the rights of individuals supersedes the demands of the collective.
https://www.scienceandnonduality.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/img-brain-universe.jpg
Shhh, not now sweetie, the grown-ups are having a discussion. Go play with your Nintendo. Evidently you didn't even have to think once.
True centrists own an xbox system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAfpSH42KzI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyJycQH51HM So here 2 part interview video with Secular Talk talking with The Intercept founder on aftermath with Brazilian election and with Bolsonaro guy.
I can't tell if this is a joke or not. I'm assuming you perhaps consider yourself some kind of libertarian centrist? What kind of opposing viewpoints do the left consider hate speech?
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.