• Hundreds rally to preserve right not to vaccinate children amid measles outbreak
    114 replies, posted
I believe Wakefield was done for fraud, but he deserved more punishment.
In terms of bodily autonomy rights I don't think it's OK to force someone to vaccinate. If that's what this was about, I'd be on their side. But bar them from public school if they don't? That's OK with me. (Which is what this bill is about) But I really, really, really wish they would vaccinate even if they didn't have to.
In terms of my fucking right to not end up in the iron lung because some dumbfuck little hippy fuck doesn't think vaccines are okay and the shit mutates, making my vaccine ineffective and subjecting me to diseases I have the right to not get? Hmm wait. Your rights stop when they put me and the rest of society in needless danger/infringe on our rights.
Like Janeway said, refusing to vaccinate isn't just something that affects you, but can impact anyone around you, and unless there is a medical reason for not being able to be vaccinated (e.g. allergy), I believe vaccinations definitely should be forced. Refusal to vaccinate isn't the same as "hey, don't judge my lifestyle choice, it's not affecting you."
It's not OK to coerce someone with physical action to receive an injection. It's their body, their choice. A stupid choice? Absolutely. A choice that should mean you can't go mingle around a school, where sickness spreads like wildfire? Sure, I'd go that far. But beyond that it's just not right to force someone to receive an injection or vaccination. Improve education, start a campaign, do whatever you have to do, but don't go around holding people down and shoving medicine in them. That's just a violation of their bodily autonomy, which I think is a an inherent right everyone has. And if not with physical action, how else would you "force" them? They are already banned from school, are you going to fine them? Imprison them? Neither of those options seem appropriate for someone simply wanting to make a (stupid, but that's not what matters) decision for their own body.
Hey Trump you wanna deport people? Deport these TERRORISTS
hence my stipulation with Schools I don't think you understand what rights are or how they work
What a time to be immunocompromised. I'm considering just locking myself indoors so I don't catch the fuckin' plague from these idiots at this rate.
Believe it or not, schools are not the only place where human being congregate in large groups. This is akin to laws banning public smoking, the difference being that public smoking is a mild health hazard to others and is otherwise a nuisance; being around non-vaccinated individuals, especially if you yourself have a compromised immune system, is a major health hazard and can lead to severe suffering and death. Additionally, these people can act a breeding grounds for vaccine-immune strains of otherwise controlled plagues and cause immense damage. You also don't understand how rights work, as one individuals rights end where the other's begins.
That's something I'm surprised wasn't added to the list of high-risk areas, not sure what their thought process was
I have a medical condition where I can potentially catch something like measles that people might have an ok chance of survival I have a very high chance of outright dying. I shouldn't have this problem if fuckin' anti-vaxxers didn't exist. I don't care about bodily autonomy when it comes to vaccines; either you get yourself and your kids vaccinated or you can go live on a deserted island.
Do you want to talk about this in terms of UN declared human rights or the Constitution
Pretty sure my idea of rights is more comprehensive and proper than yours at this point so tbh I'm not that worried. Your viewpoint is literally why Kotov there has to worry about fucking dying to entirely preventable diseases. His rights are infringed upon simply because anti-vaxxing is a thing, he's been put in this position by society as a disabled/permanently ill person, where do his rights begin? After your rights to risk his life so you can have the philosophical high ground brought about in your defense of fake news and corporate purchased pseudo-science?
Also, here's a better question: why don't you just get vaccinated? There is zero reason not to, aside from aforementioned medical difficulties. I have a strong fear of needles but I'm able to put that aside because I'm not a selfish bastard. If the only reason is "because I don't want to", that's moronic, on a similar level to "but I don't want to pay taxes >:(". Cool, that's fine. But only if you get the fuck out of society. Anti-vaxx is different from shit like flat earthers, because flat earthers aren't really hurting anyone. Refusing to be vaccinated, or refusal to vaccinate your kids, is dangerous, and there is absolutely no way to skip around that. No ifs, no buts. It's harmful to society. I will not feel bad when I propose that anyone buying into anti-vaxx should be either forced to vaccinate or should be shoved out of society. There seems to be an inability to realise the costs of anti-vaxx, as though it's a casual quirky lifestyle. It isn't. It is a threat to the health of other human beings, sometimes including your own children. At the very least, anti-vaxx is child abuse, and I stand by that.
You do realize that by your logic, nobody should be required to bathe, right? Sure, that's well within their rights or whatever ass-argument you're trying to pull, but even your whole "just don't let them in school lol" argument falls flat when you have to account for these people interacting with the populace at large sooner or later. Whether it's at a bank, a voting booth, a super market, sooner or later you're going to run into an area that's been affected by someone whose parents decided they didn't need to be vaccinated, and now your newborn, who's too young to be vaccinated, has polio. Congratulations, sovereign citizen.
if the people who wrote those didnt anticipate situations where there were going to be conflicts of interest between people with good sense and those without, then i'm sorry to say that they were morons. end of story. There are actually several contradictions being argued on about the UN charter of human rights alone, such as additions, removals, and on the standard of western bias vis a vis cultural relativism. No law is so ironclad that it cannot be subject to legitimate criticism, and in this case, it's making those idiots yelling about autonomy to cause trouble for others to see sense. I dont want to see a revival of the era of infectious diseases because some sovereign citizen decides they dont want their children to become autistic thanks to big pharma, because they live in their own world. I'm only interested in the truth, not what some idiot believes is the real truth. That's been my stance from day 1, and I'm not about to change that because of somebody else's feelings.
If thats what you believe then why did you even mention rights in the first place, and how do you explain smoking laws? It is an active truth that if you exercise your 'rights' in such a way that actively infringes upon another individual's rights, it is no longer your right. (Example being, hampering free speech by actively silencing the individual, instead of exercising your own right to leave or ignore them) People like Kotov have a right to participate in society and pursue their own happiness without the actively harmful decision of another completely trampling his right to do so. Anti-vaxxers have no scientific basis for their stances or positions, and yet that basis can demonstrably cause harm to others, this is what we call in the vernacular 'Wrong'. For a much more hyperbolic example, If I believed that bombing a post office every 3 weeks led to excellent male virility, is it my right to do so even though it harms others?
I... what? Maybe you only skimmed what I've written, but I'm not actually anti-vaxx nor do I defend their reasoning. Their rights? Sure, but not their general rationale nor course of action. Vaccines don't cause autism or whatever, and only a dumbass would choose not to get vaccinated for fears brought upon by some boomers facebook post or conspiracy youtube video. What I'm talking about is how conflicted I am with forcing those dumbasses to accept what they would consider an invasive procedure against their explicit will. And I think that someones right to govern what happens to their own body should be taken very, very seriously. For example I am in support of legalized suicide procedures for terminally ill people because it's their own body. I support having to check a box for organ donation ( I am an organ donor) because it's their own body. I vaccinate, and support vaccination, but am not entirely sold on forcing other people to vaccinate because it's their own body. It's a very serious and significant thing to do, ignoring someone's right to choose. I hate the antivaxxers, I really do. But that doesn't mean that I will start to ignore what I believe are their rights.
What happens when their idiotic pseudoscientific bullshit causes a revival of infectious diseases and potential fatalities? you respected their rights, sure, but what about the preventable deaths that could've been stopped if antivaxx was just flushed down the toilet for once and all?
Heres an idea: a person deserves to get arrested if they infect and kill someone because they weren't vaccinated. Hows that for human rights?
Their decisions about their own bodies is affecting other people's bodies. This is the basic principle you are missing, these people have a right to have their own bodies not be trampled on by others and their own decisions.
I am so glad that we have someone defending the rights of anti-vaxxers whilst the rate of measles, A PREVENTABLE DISEASE, is on the rise again. Won't someone think of the anti-vaxxers' rights to endanger other human beings???
These people are actively causing their children harm. They're spreading a long muffled and muted disease that is now resurging. In my eyes anyways, they've forfeited the right to free speech if they are knowingly not vaccinating their children and causing unnecessary harm to both their children and people surrounding their children.
I guess I should just make this crystal clear then. IMO: Abstract notions of rights for all > Possibility of dangerous outbreaks I don't expect to convince any of you. That's just how I feel. I'm not blind to the obvious possible consequences. I just have strong personal beliefs on what being a human means in terms of autonomy and how humans should be treated.
If they want to ignore the purpose of vaccination in the bigger picture, endanger those around them who cannot be vaccinated, or whose immune systems are too weak to battle diseases otherwise, then they have no place in society. Existing in society comes with a checklist of responsibilities that you are required to follow through on. They aren't many, and they aren't hard. Failing to get vaccinated for reasons completely within your control is breaking the core principle of "do no harm"/"love thy neighbor"/whatever interpretation you subscribe to. There are many instances where the group triumphs over the individual, this is a perfect case of one of them. Your protection of individual rights are pointless when those rights actively endanger the individuals you are trying to grant freedom to. The freedom to unwillingly die to another individuals purposeful neglect is a right/freedom I will gladly pass on.
Even ancient societies cast out or secluded those with the plague. We used to straight up remove people from living around others if they were dangerous to public health and shove them in sanitariums. We still do that for shit like Ebola and other high risk communicable diseases. The "freedom" to refuse preventative health treatments and open up the planet to the risks of new virulent strains of various diseases developing in their sick asses has to be weighed against the collective interest. If you're an adult and you refuse vaccination, you shouldn't be allowed free movement. If you refuse vaccination for your dependents, you should lose your guardianship. You're complaining about people asking for enforcement of basic requirements for civil society. You can't just shit in the street. You can't taint public water or food supplies. You can't foul the air we all share. You can't just waltz into public places festering with disease.
They are violating other's bodily autonomy by willingly unvaccinating their child though. That's the problem, they're knowingly or unknowingly spreading preventable diseases to vulnerable people who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons.. I'd say that's a fairly large violation of bodily autonomy.
Let me make this crystal clear as well: The right to passively endanger other people over your fear of needles is not a right. You're not blind to the consequences. It's even worse: you're willfully negligent.
Your notion of rights is essentially anarchy, it isn't about potential outbreaks, its about the basics of the social contract all societies and it's individuals uphold.
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