Carmack takes aim at "snooty" indies, Condemns Call of Duty bashing - Polidicks

[QUOTE=klawneed;31237702]No, i do not.[/QUOTE] Then you are too young my friend. [editline]21st July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=bobsynergy;31238126] Yes the game industry associates the term indie with small dev teams who make and sell 2d games, but it doesn't mean it's exactly right. You can still be famous and make tons of money being an indie, you don't have to be starving.[/QUOTE] case in point is Mojang and the crew of terraria, the latter of which is a constant guest in steam's top seller list.

[QUOTE=thisispain;31237735]indie is short for small teams that make their dues by smaller games which rely more on word-of-mouth than commercial publishing valve is a very large company that distributes their games using commercial publishing means, nothing close to what we call indie[/QUOTE] Does that mean Tripwire is no longer an indie company as soon as they start using commercial publishing for games like Killing Floor?

[QUOTE=Reimu;31210730]And of course, everyone is going to be disappointed because the hype can't match the product.[/QUOTE] I will LAUGH when that happens.

[QUOTE=bobsynergy;31238126]I don't see why you guys have a problem naming big companies as indie, indie means independent.[/QUOTE] no it doesn't there's a specific reason we call it indie instead of independent just like we call certain music indie rock, it's a style of doing things you can be signed to a major label company and still be indie rock, see modest mouse and sonic youth

[QUOTE=Foda;31207941]...and this is the problem with the current gaming industry. No one is willing to take risks and push boundaries for new and exciting concepts or mechanics because they have the risk of not making a boatload of money because their game is not a COD clone. [/QUOTE] people are willing to go for innovation, its just that they get shit on. Look at Mirror's Edge, or Brink, or spore, or any of the number of games trying to bring innovation to the main stream. While most did end up suffering from good idea, poor execution syndrome, they tried, and they were shit on by both consumers and reviewers. Including a lot of these Facepunchers crying about the death of innovation. People complain that developers lack the balls to do try new things. Then they complain when they implement new ideas. The only Indie games I've seen being successful are the ones that have low production values and use tried gameplay formulas but add some quirky humor to it. Of course there are exceptions like Amnesia or Minecraft. Pretty much just the ones that don't get hyped into something they aren't. And they offer cheap prices for games that are quick and easy to pick up. Cheap is a large reason for their success.

[QUOTE=Sanius;31237776]indie means independent to the same degree that fag means cigarette[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fag[/url] You were saying? Again, this is just like Carmack said about Rage being a fine steak. It doesn't look like a fine steak, it looks like a decent steak cooked at a decent mom and pop's resturaunt. Also, there are different places to look for innovation. A lot of people are sitting here only focusing on PC games when you have games like Little Big Planet which effectively gave the user base mod tools. Innovation isn't dieing, it's being replaced or ignored. I'm not getting Rage purely on an ideological level. You don't hype up your own game, its a horrible idea. You let reviewers and the public hype it up for you. I'm going into the business and that's why people like Carmack, Kotick and others who try to say they're better than someone else or better than everyone else really need to shut up. They make themselves look like douches and for me personally actually push me away from buying they're products. Its the reason why I didn't get Crysis 2(among other things).

On a slightly related note, is RO2 an indie game?

Just because people enjoy it, it doesn't mean they should enjoy it.

[QUOTE=thisispain;31239240]no it doesn't there's a specific reason we call it indie instead of independent just like we call certain music indie rock, it's a style of doing things you can be signed to a major label company and still be indie rock, see modest mouse and sonic youth[/QUOTE] Just like you can be part of EA Partners program and still be an indie developer. [editline]20th July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Reimu;31239397]On a slightly related note, is RO2 an indie game?[/QUOTE] Tripwire is an indie company. RO started out as a mod and won a competition to become a legitimate game.

[QUOTE=PunchedInFac;31236340] they are something the bigger devs with their publisher umbrellas should really envy.[/QUOTE] Why would they envy a smaller paycheck?

[QUOTE=Reimu;31239397]On a slightly related note, is RO2 an indie game?[/QUOTE] I would consider it an indie game, but the way Tripwire is going right now and their games I doubt people will view them as indie anymore.

[QUOTE=VengfulSoldier;31239406] Tripwire is an indie company. RO started out as a mod and won a competition to become a legitimate game.[/QUOTE] I've been a Tripwire fan for awhile now, so I know all that, but Tripwire is calling upon 1C to at least do some distribution work, if not full out publishing. So that really stretches how much of an indie game RO2 is. [quote]I would consider it an indie game, but the way Tripwire is going right now and their games I doubt people will view them as indie anymore. [/quote] Yeah, RO2 could be the game that sets them into the mainstream. Which is great, because Tripwire's philosophy on development and video games is just the sort of thing this industry needs.

This is really sad to hear from John Carmack. The reason that id software became so large is because they pushed boundaries. By creating Wolfenstein 3D, he invented FPSes, which paved the road for many of our favorite games today. When there was controversy over whether or not Doom was turning children into serial killers, he continued to make Quake, which was another revolution in first-person shooters. I agree that it can be annoying when people say that Halo or Call of Duty sucks just to sound edgy and independent, but sometimes, especially with art, new things need to be thought of. That's actually my only criticism with the Call of Duty franchise lately, is that they've become like NFL games that bring almost nothing new and you pretty much only buy them so you find games on xbox live.

[QUOTE=Lord_Ragnarok;31240337]This is really sad to hear from John Carmack. The reason that id software became so large is because they pushed boundaries. By creating Wolfenstein 3D, he invented FPSes, which paved the road for many of our favorite games today. When there was controversy over whether or not Doom was turning children into serial killers, he continued to make Quake, which was another revolution in first-person shooters. I agree that it can be annoying when people say that Halo or Call of Duty sucks just to sound edgy and independent, but sometimes, especially with art, new things need to be thought of. That's actually my only criticism with the Call of Duty franchise lately, is that they've become like NFL games that bring almost nothing new and you pretty much only buy them so you find games on xbox live.[/QUOTE] My complaint is that while they add in new game modes and effects, the core gameplay hasn't changes since Modern Warfare which by all accounts was a good game.

[QUOTE=thisispain;31234996]half of the people in this thread didn't read anything except the tittle he wasn't condemning innovation you childeren, he was condemning the attitude that some people who see themselves as innovative have.[/QUOTE] "It's not to do something that nobody's ever seen before. It's to do something that people love so much they're willing to give us money for." I understand why he's advocating the "safe route" in game development, and sometimes it's necessary. I think, however, that people shouldn't force themselves to be different just for the sake of making a different game, but because they have a good idea. Nintendo usually innovates every once in a while then makes the same games over and over again, but every once in a while, they come up with something like Majora's Mask that's pretty good (which they strangely did during a financially risky time for the company). I think John Carmack is just being too reactant toward the indie developers.

he's saying you aren't supposed to do make video games for the sake of innovating, you're supposed to make games that other people wanna play

[QUOTE=VengfulSoldier;31240621]My complaint is that while they add in new game modes and effects, the core gameplay hasn't changes since Modern Warfare which by all accounts was a good game.[/QUOTE] That's what I was talking about, and that's why football games annoy me. Funnily enough, I actually like Madden 2000 for the N64 better than all the other Maddens.

[QUOTE=VengfulSoldier;31239291][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fag[/url] You were saying?[/QUOTE] good job complety missing an obvious point

[QUOTE=Sanius;31241598]good job complety missing an obvious point[/QUOTE] Good job making and entirely shitty point. And dumbing me for a personal decision on a fucking game. [editline]21st July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Lord_Ragnarok;31240784]That's what I was talking about, and that's why football games annoy me. Funnily enough, I actually like Madden 2000 for the N64 better than all the other Maddens.[/QUOTE] That's really my only complaint for some game devs which is why I haven't lost hope for gaming because on a lot of levels games do evolve you if you pay attention. I'm not a doom sayer like some people are. Like what you said about Nintendo, I like how some of their games evolve like Metroid but characters like Mario really just need to stop. Just like Sonic. I don't hate Nintendo in fact I love their heyday games of NES and SNES and I still love the Game boys. The DS? Not really...3DS...fuck no. What people miss is that from all intents an purposes, a game reflects what developer very well. For instance, Duke Nukem Forever is so amazingly disturbing in some points it can be inferred that 3D Realms thought this game was never coming out so they just started making it as horrible as possible. The rushed feeling comes from the Fact that Gearbox doesn't know what to do with it now after acquiring it and just gets rid of it as soon as possible. This idea is actually called a Developers, developer philosophy and you can see it reverberate throughout any game you choose. The feeling I get from Rage? We're not pushing it far enough because we don't want to. That's the feeling and Carmack who while has a somewhat valid point has undertones that just make me worry that this game will not be too different from others.

[QUOTE=StealthArcher;31207579]No, it's because it's shit, therefore it isn't good. For once, blow it out your ass Carmack.[/QUOTE] Watch yourself boy. This isn't Cottick, it's Carmack, and Carmack is a demigod.

you guys care way too much about video games

[QUOTE=Chilean;31241769]Watch yourself boy. This isn't Cottick, it's Carmack, and Carmack is a demigod.[/QUOTE] Gods don't exist and therefore he is infallible. [editline]21st July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Sanius;31241783]you guys care way too much about video games[/QUOTE] Uhhhh...I'm going into the business so I should give a fuck. Are you fucking serious? You're on a forum that started out dedicated to a videogame and are surprised people take it as a serious media platform? You really need to stop talking about shit you have no clue about. You also shouldn't jump into conversation you don't give a shit about cause it shows.

[QUOTE=Sanius;31210131]hey I hope you guys realise that doom was made to appeal to a large audience and make a bunch of money just like CoD is [img]http://i.imgur.com/buler.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] lol the highly controversial game with devil symbolism was made for a mass audience

[QUOTE=Chilean;31241809]lol the highly controversial game with devil symbolism was made for a mass audience[/QUOTE] uh yeah it was read the masters of doom book (mega-nerdism) and you'll see they wanted to make it a smash hit it was originally supposed to be a super-sophisticated game with a large storyline and RPG elements

[QUOTE=Chilean;31241809]lol the highly controversial game with devil symbolism was made for a mass audience[/QUOTE] Well lets see. What has CoD been blamed for? I'm pretty sure Doom was an excuse used for why Columbine happened. [editline]21st July 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;31241827]uh yeah it was read the masters of doom book (mega-nerdism) and you'll see they wanted to make it a smash hit it was originally supposed to be a super-sophisticated game with a large storyline and RPG elements[/QUOTE] So they've always been like this? Huh...no wonder I felt Doom was empty.

[QUOTE=Chilean;31241809]lol the highly controversial game with devil symbolism was made for a mass audience[/QUOTE] yeah

[QUOTE=VengfulSoldier;31241788] Uhhhh...I'm going into the business so I should give a fuck.[/QUOTE] id is like every single developers dream besides Valve and a couple of others

[QUOTE=VengfulSoldier;31241788] Uhhhh...I'm going into the business so I should give a fuck. Are you fucking serious? You're on a forum that started out dedicated to a videogame and are surprised people take it as a serious media platform? [/QUOTE] where have you been for the last 5 years? facepunch isn't a "video game forum." it's a free somethingawful with gaming sub-forums

[QUOTE=thisispain;31241838]id is like every single developers dream besides Valve and a couple of others[/QUOTE] Oddly enough, they never even registered on the list I gave a fuck about. My list went like this Valve Gearbox Tripwire Massive Entertainment Relic Introversion and then it ended with me starting my own buisness. I was never impressed with id. They helped push PC gaming into a new genre but every game I've played by them felt empty similar to Brink's story line.

[QUOTE=thisispain;31241827]uh yeah it was read the masters of doom book (mega-nerdism) and you'll see they wanted to make it a smash hit it was originally supposed to be a super-sophisticated game with a large storyline and RPG elements[/QUOTE] oh okay. that seems weird but I trust you.