I don't understand how anybody can think that torture is an effective way of extracting information. People will say anything to get out of being tortured.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30789986]In terms of basic nutrients like protein and so forth we can get everything we need, but as for specific amino acids or whatever I'm not 100% sure
I know there are different types of proteins too and some may be exclusive to meat, I couldn't speak to their importance though[/QUOTE]
Vitamin B12 is what all the pro-meat guys say. There is NO plant source, and it's necessary. Go for a while without B12 and your brain effs up.
However it can be produced by using bacteria to make it, then putting it in vitamins, or Total Cereal or something.
Are you vegetarian? I didn't know
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30789986]
Is it still moral when you realize that statistically, torture is a really shitty way of obtaining accurate information?[/QUOTE]
That depends on the circumstances
In the situation I put fourth above where there is a time sensitive situation which could result in the deaths of many innocent people, and one specific person knows how to prevent these deaths but refuses to talk.
It would be moral to do whatever it took to this person in order to obtain the life saving information.
It would also in that case be immoral to intentionally use a method of acquiring that information that could prevent the individual from providing it in the future, while simultaneously being itself ineffective.
A good analogy would be that it would be immoral for an incompetent Doctor to amputate the limb of a person which could easily be fixed surgically.
So its moral to do whatever it takes to that person to acquire the information, short of violating the rights of someone other than the prisoner (who is not otherwise involved in the nefarious deed), and it would be immoral to prevent that information from being acquired, or risk peoples lives by wasting time on ineffective methods of acquiring information.
damnit i started a war against dutch FP'ers
[QUOTE=Baldr 2.0;30790577]A quick wiki lookup shows its even in Swiss cheese, in higher quantity's than beef (uncooked) to.[/QUOTE]
Strictly speaking, a vegetarian does not eat cheese or dairy products. Dairy is an excellent non-meat source for B12, eggs not so much.
Lacto-vegetarians or ovi-lacto-vegetarians will eat dairy though, and apparently that provides enough B12 for healthiness.
[QUOTE=Baldr 2.0;30790577]A quick wiki lookup shows its even in Swiss cheese, in higher quantity's than beef (uncooked) to.[/QUOTE]
Then there really is no valid reason for the meat market to be so large?
[QUOTE=Elecbullet;30790631]Strictly speaking, a vegetarian does not eat cheese or dairy products. [/QUOTE]
You're thinking of vegans
[QUOTE=Baldr 2.0;30790654]Yes you did, now prepare your anus.[/QUOTE]
even if you rape me it won't come close to the butthurt i see in the dutch chat thread
[QUOTE=Sanius;30790659]You're thinking of vegans[/QUOTE]
Strictly speaking, you're supposed to call a vegetarian who eats eggs and milk by a special name: ovi-lacto-vegetarians. Subtract prefixes as necessary.
"Vegan" is more strict than anything. Vegans refuse to eat any animal product, including honey.
However we're both right actually because Vegetarian is just a [i]gigantic[/i] blanket word.
[QUOTE=Elecbullet;30790722]Strictly speaking, you're supposed to call a vegetarian who eats eggs and milk by a special name: ovi-lacto-vegetarians. Subtract suffixes as necessary.
[/QUOTE]
As far as I'm aware, those distinctions didn't really exist until Veganism became more prevalent
[QUOTE=Elecbullet;30790357]
Are you vegetarian? I didn't know[/QUOTE]
No, but I've looked into it before when I was doing my seven day vegetarian experiment (which actually went more like 9 days because I don't eat as much as I should)
[QUOTE=Sanius;30790647]Then there really is no valid reason for the meat market to be so large?[/QUOTE]
People like the taste of meat and are willing to pay for it.
The only justification it needs.
[QUOTE=Baldr 2.0;30790758]At least I don't have to fall back on a wiki and fallacies with every argument.[/QUOTE]
are you sure you're dutch, i remember dutch people being quite fond of facts and reality
[QUOTE=Novistador;30790762]People like the taste of meat and are willing to pay for it.
The only justification it needs.[/QUOTE]
But that's not a reason
[QUOTE=Zeke129;30790750]No, but I've looked into it before when I was doing my seven day vegetarian experiment (which actually went more like 9 days because I don't eat as much as I should)[/QUOTE]
Ehh. I went ovi-lacto-vegetarian for something like 2 years.
I never missed meat. Not one bit.
One day I dunno, I just lost interest and told my class if they bought me a burger I'd eat it. Ross Medley bought it for me, and the ass didn't even get me any ketchup.
[QUOTE=Sanius;30790811]But that's not a reason[/QUOTE]
How is that not a reason,
People need to eat to live, people prefer to eat food they think tastes good, many people think meat tastes good.
People need to work to live, people can trade one good or services for another, Animal meat for the purpose of eating is one such good, since there is demand for this good people can make a living providing it, Since people can make a living providing it, there is a meat industry.
The human life is finite, since it is finite people should fill enjoy their lives as much as possible while they can, eating good food is a form of enjoyment.
Does that count as a reason oh Sanius, god of what is and isn't a reason
[QUOTE=thisispain;30790595]damnit i started a war against dutch FP'ers[/QUOTE]
And there's 16.5 million of us to.
[QUOTE=Novistador;30790956]How is that not a reason,
People need to eat to live[/QUOTE]
people don't need to eat meat to live
[QUOTE=Sanius;30796656]people don't need to eat meat to live[/QUOTE]
It was meant to be.
We are just fortunate to be the most civilized specie. If for example lions whould have been the smarter ones i bet your ass they whould eat us to.
[editline]30th June 2011[/editline]
I just hope they whould top me with some icing or a cherry.
[editline]30th June 2011[/editline]
Oh and good luck with finding a willing vegetarian lion.
[QUOTE=Scientist2;30796681]It was meant to be.
[/QUOTE]
no it wasn't
[QUOTE=Sanius;30796710]no it wasn't[/QUOTE]
Whatever i'm fine with vegetarians and i think they do a great job for saving animals but let me eat whatever i want.
[editline]30th June 2011[/editline]
Thanks for the boxes. Might want to throw your shoe at my head to?
[QUOTE=Novistador;30790956]How is that not a reason,
People need to eat to live, people prefer to eat food they think tastes good, many people think meat tastes good.
People need to work to live, people can trade one good or services for another, Animal meat for the purpose of eating is one such good, since there is demand for this good people can make a living providing it, Since people can make a living providing it, there is a meat industry.
The human life is finite, since it is finite people should fill enjoy their lives as much as possible while they can, eating good food is a form of enjoyment.
Does that count as a reason oh Sanius, god of what is and isn't a reason[/QUOTE]
Just because people enjoy it doesn't mean we should allow it.
[QUOTE=Miskav;30779159]Go in to any larger city, Who is causing the trouble?
Either white dutch kids (Low education, etc)
Or Muslim kids.
The first kind you see less and less these past 5 years
Second kind? You can't go a block without being either yelled at, insulted, or even assaulted if you're a girl. When you're a guy you still need to avoid any group of 2+ muslims as they'll shank you in no time.
I've been stabbed twice, for no other reason than being there and refusing to worship them/get out of their way.
You can claim anecdotal evidence, but you can ask anyone who spends time in the larger cities and they'll agree with me, if they don't, then they're mighty lucky.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Racism" - Starpluck))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
while i dont agree with him, its not racist if he is saying that a set of morals, values, and beliefs that are a religion can negativly impact the behavior of people in the view of a society. we all [I]know[/I] that any one of those 3 can change the way someone acts. can we please stop this racist bullcrap. ban him for being an idiot, just not racism.
if i am in the religion of "people with mustaches" is it racist if someone accuses my religion of having too many people with mustaches in it?
[editline]30th June 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Starpluck;30779468]Why are you selectively choosing and sugarcoating what he said. He wasn't banned for stating he "got stabbed"
This is racist, no matter how hard you try to paint it as truth:[/QUOTE]
well he is pointing out that due to the high statistic of "shankers" who publicly and vocally associate themselves with islam that he is forced to avoid them for his own safety. Basically, the thugs themselves have intentionally painted a negative picture on the muslim people of the area. i would probably think muslims in the area who dont want to associate with this group make sure to be as quiet as possible about it, and thus you dont see the hostile ones vs the nonhostile ones. his observation is unfortunate, but by no means 'racist'.
[QUOTE=thisispain;30790781]are you sure you're dutch, i remember dutch people being quite fond of facts and reality[/QUOTE]
Are you sure it's the inhabitants of The Netherlands you're talking about?
[QUOTE=Scientist2;30796681]It was meant to be.
We are just fortunate to be the most civilized specie. If for example lions whould have been the smarter ones i bet your ass they whould eat us to.
[editline]30th June 2011[/editline]
I just hope they whould top me with some icing or a cherry.
[editline]30th June 2011[/editline]
Oh and good luck with finding a willing vegetarian lion.[/QUOTE]
Lions are strictly carnivores. Humans are omnivores, that's a ridiculous comparison.
well this is kind of a dick move
[quote]"They (livestock) stay conscious for up to 5 minutes. They lose a lot of blood and they can choke on their own blood and the cut should be one time, but research shows that with kosher slaughter (they are cut) on average 3.5 times, and with halal 5.5 times," Karen Soeters of the Party for Animals told Al Jazeera.[/quote]
:ohdear:
I'm with the animal rights group on this one. If an animal can be killed more humanely, then that supersedes the doctrine of any religion. Judaism/Islam justify it by saying "oh well God put these creatures on earth for us to slaughter and eat, and this is how God told us to kill them so it must be the best method."
[QUOTE=thisispain;30779655]it's their bloody choice if they don't speak the language and it's their bloody loss. what business of yours is it?[/QUOTE]
I've agreed with everything you have said up until this point. Permanent immigrants [b]must[/b] learn the language of the country if they want to be able to function in said society. Expats are a whole other issue.
[QUOTE=Omali;30803744]:ohdear:
I'm with the animal rights group on this one. If an animal can be killed more humanely, then that supersedes the doctrine of any religion. Judaism/Islam justify it by saying "oh well God put these creatures on earth for us to slaughter and eat, and this is how God told us to kill them so it must be the best method."[/QUOTE]
How about stunning the animal and then performing the incision? That's been proposed a lot.
They stun the animal for other kinds of slaughter.
[QUOTE=Elecbullet;30804798]How about stunning the animal and then performing the incision? That's been proposed a lot.
They stun the animal for other kinds of slaughter.[/QUOTE]
i like this idea
banning it is going to victimize and piss off a lot of people
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