[QUOTE=PatrickT;30779370]"I had a good experience with muslims, so anyone with an experience contrary to my own is dumb and has no idea what he is talking about. That person is also a xenophobe/racist."[/QUOTE]
k good for you
[QUOTE=PatrickT;30779370]"I had a good experience with muslims, so anyone with an experience contrary to my own is dumb and has no idea what he is talking about. That person is also a xenophobe/racist."[/QUOTE]
'i had a bad experience with muslims, so anyone with an experience contrary to my own is dumb and has no idea what he is talking about'
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;30779399]'i had a bad experience with muslims, so anyone with an experience contrary to my own is dumb and has no idea what he is talking about'[/QUOTE]
What? He hasn't even said that
[QUOTE=Miskav;30779159]Go in to any larger city, Who is causing the trouble?
Either white dutch kids (Low education, etc)
Or Muslim kids.
The first kind you see less and less these past 5 years
Second kind? You can't go a block without being either yelled at, insulted, or even assaulted if you're a girl. When you're a guy you still need to avoid any group of 2+ muslims as they'll shank you in no time.
I've been stabbed twice, for no other reason than being there and refusing to worship them/get out of their way.
You can claim anecdotal evidence, but you can ask anyone who spends time in the larger cities and they'll agree with me, if they don't, then they're mighty lucky.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Racism" - Starpluck))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
So posting what has happened to you and seeming slightly biased against a certain culture is now an offence worthy of banning?
[QUOTE=thisispain;30779389]yeah uh the family i used to live with in holland didn't pay anything for their education.[/QUOTE]
So they didn't pay for their own school materials? Excursions? I have a very hard time believing that.
[QUOTE=DoubleDD;30779390]
No ofcourse not because that's a crazy thing to say. But it's exactly what you are doing[/QUOTE]
you are missing the point. i'm not generalizing the dutch society, i'm point out the flaws of your society because it promotes racism. you have people in blackface running around during christmas time. these aren't generalizations of dutch people because there are amazing dutch people who are trying to fix this and stop the hatred.
but you cannot deny the racist institution with a false equivalency. a few muslims being rude to your isn't the same as a racist institution that brings down people of other races. to suggest that they are the same is ludicrous and suggests that you support it which is amazingly not liberal.
I'm kind of on the fence with this. Although people should be allowed to follow whatever religion or customs they want, when immigrants come and start to change everything to follow their customs then it starts getting a bit wierd. I mean, I didn't move to Australia just to try and change everything to be like it was back in the UK.
[QUOTE=Bokito;30779429]So they didn't pay for their own school materials? Excursions? I have a very hard time believing that.[/QUOTE]
that's not what people mean when they say education is free dude.
[editline]29th June 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=valkery;30779422]So posting what has happened to you and seeming slightly biased against a certain culture is now an offence worthy of banning?[/QUOTE]
he said if you met more than 2 muslims you would get stabbed.
replace muslim any other race you "prefer" if your bias is that intense
[QUOTE=valkery;30779422]So posting what has happened to you and seeming slightly biased against a certain culture is now an offence worthy of banning?[/QUOTE]
Why are you selectively choosing and sugarcoating what he said. He wasn't banned for stating he "got stabbed"
This is racist, no matter how hard you try to paint it as truth:
[quote]You can't go a block without being either yelled at, insulted, or even assaulted if you're a girl. When you're a guy you still need to avoid any group of 2+ black people as they'll shank you in no time.[/quote]
[QUOTE=NinjaWilko;30779438]I'm kind of on the fence with this. Although people should be allowed to follow whatever religion or customs they want, when immigrants come and start to change everything to follow their customs then it starts getting a bit wierd. I mean, we didn't move to Australia just to try and change everything to be like it was back in the UK.[/QUOTE]
who do you mean by we?
if you meant british people i'd have to ask where exactly you got that amazing crack from
[QUOTE=thisispain;30779267]my source says 5%[/QUOTE]
[quote=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_Netherlands]Data from 2011 show that the Netherlands hosts an estimated 1,219,753 Muslims. Most of them live in the four major cities of the country, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague and Utrecht.[/quote]
[quote=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands]16,678,700 [total population][/quote]
In a calculator, that gives roughly 7.3 percent (I did an estimate before).
It also notes that "most live in the large cities". So we can conclude that in the large cities, the percentage of Muslims is [i]somewhere[/i] above 7.3 percent.
[QUOTE=thisispain;30779470]who do you mean by we?
if you meant british people i'd have to ask where exactly you got that amazing crack from[/QUOTE]
"We" as in my family. Should have put I.
[QUOTE=NinjaWilko;30779482]"We" as in my family. Should have put I.[/QUOTE]
well you don't really have the power to change anything.
if you were part of a group that did you probably would.
[editline]29th June 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Elecbullet;30779478]In a calculator, that gives roughly 7.3 percent (I did an estimate before).
[/QUOTE]
meh old data then
[QUOTE=DoubleDD;30779390]Again, you generalize the whole [b]Muslim minority[/b] society based on a [b]few events[/b] that occured to people [b]you know[/b]. [/QUOTE]
Just FYI, you're doing the same shit.
Any statement that begins with [whole ethnic group] and ends with [general sweeping negative statement] is called fucking racism for a damn reason. In Britain we have large groups of young white poor kids who go around stabbing and killing people, but why does that make every young white poor person bad, or rude?
Generalizations are wrong and dumb. Always have been.
and again i'll point out that i'm not generalizing the dutch public rather i'm criticizing the dutch institution
like i said dutch people are victims of this institution as well, because i'm not going to pretend there aren't any non-white dutch people
Thisispain, would you agree with the statement?
[quote]Because they wanted to live here, they should adapt to us, not us to them.[/quote]
[QUOTE=thisispain;30779554]and again i'll point out that i'm not generalizing the dutch public rather i'm criticizing the dutch institution
like i said dutch people are victims of this institution as well, because i'm not going to pretend there aren't any non-white dutch people[/QUOTE]
Not arguing at you (Though you need to make that more clear)
I wouldn't say Sinterklaas (the holiday you're talking about) is about making fun of black people. Sure, the background is pretty racist, seeing as it's a white man from Spain with lots of black slaves. But that's not the point, the point is that they're being generous, and it makes kids around the country happy. Do these kids think the 'Zwarte Pieten' (black pete's) are worth less than others? No probably not, they like the holiday, and probably won't even see the racist undertones that were created way back. We wouldn't create something similar because of the racism involved, but changing it now would destroy a long living tradition, and fuck up the fun of lots of children that still believe that these people are real. Changing it would be like changing Santa into a skinny man, because his fatness would promote obesity.
[QUOTE=Elecbullet;30779557]Thisispain, would you agree with the statement?[/QUOTE]
i don't agree with this dehumanizing sentence no.
i would agree if you said something like "people of different cultures should learn how to properly co-exist and if they cannot they should exist from each other separately."
[QUOTE=Elecbullet;30779557]Because they wanted to live here, they should adapt to us, not us to them.[/QUOTE]
i don't even get the logic behind this, not all dutch people are the same just like not all muslim people are the same. heck, it's not even like being dutch and muslim is incompatible
[QUOTE=Elecbullet;30779557]Thisispain, would you agree with the statement?[/QUOTE]
You didn't ask me but I'll tell you anyway because I don't give a fuck.
People should adapt to a culture if they choose to. An immigrant needs to learn how to speak the native language, but otherwise they should live how they choose, within the law of the land. Neither side should try to 'adapt' each other, that's not democracy.
[QUOTE=MrEndangered;30779581]You didn't ask me but I'll tell you anyway because I don't give a fuck.
People should adapt to a culture if they choose to. An immigrant needs to learn how to speak the native language, but otherwise they should live how they choose, within the law of the land. Neither side should try to 'adapt' each other, that's not democracy.[/QUOTE]
This guy gets it, although I don't think its working too well in the Netherlands.
[QUOTE=Bokito;30779564]I wouldn't say Sinterklaas (the holiday you're talking about) is about making fun of black people.[/QUOTE]
cool
but it's still dehumanizing and hurtful to black dutch people
[QUOTE=Bokito;30779564] Sure, the background is pretty racist, seeing as it's a white man from Spain with lots of black slaves. But that's not the point, the point is that they're being generous, and it makes kids around the country happy.[/QUOTE]
not a good reason
[QUOTE=Bokito;30779564] Do these kids think the 'Zwarte Pieten' (black pete's) are worth less than others? No probably not, they like the holiday, and probably won't even see the racist undertones that were created way back.[/QUOTE]
yeah we could say that, then i could look at dutch people who say racist shit and get elected in alarming numbers or get agreed with.
this doesn't just appear out of thin air, racism is a cultural attitude and a culture has to breed it in order for it to continue. to suggest that zwarte piet doesn't influence kids attitudes towards black people is naive at the least.
[QUOTE=Bokito;30779564] We wouldn't create something similar because of the racism involved, but changing it now would destroy a long living tradition, and fuck up the fun of lots of children that still believe that these people are real. Changing it would be like changing Santa into a skinny man, because his fatness would promote obesity.[/QUOTE]
tradition and happiness isn't a good reason to continue an injustice towards people. slavery was a tradition that brought happiness to people too but that doesn't make it right. i'm not equating zwarte piet with slavery, but your argument is just as potent with that and it simply does not hold water
[editline]29th June 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=lukepker;30779596]This guy gets it, although I don't think its working too well in the Netherlands.[/QUOTE]
wrong.
almost every single muslim dutch person is co-existing with almost every other dutch person.
friction and danger is the price you pay for liberalism and freedom.
[QUOTE=thisispain;30779567]i don't agree with this dehumanizing sentence no.
i would agree if you said something like "people of different cultures should learn how to properly co-exist and if they cannot they should exist from each other separately."[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying we should kick other cultures out, but there are [u]some[/u] (i.e. not all) people who have lived here for over 10 years, and still don't know how to speak Dutch properly. I think it's not that weird of a thought that people should at LEAST try to speak the language of the country they live in. I think it's rather absurd to think that if, for example, a Frenchman would come to live in a country, the entire country should learn to speak French rather than the one person that isn't from the country should learn the native language over there.
[QUOTE=Bokito;30779647]I'm not saying we should kick other cultures out, but there are [u]some[/u] (i.e. not all) people who have lived here for over 10 years, and still don't know how to speak Dutch properly. I think it's not that weird of a thought that people should at LEAST try to speak the language of the country they live in. I think it's rather absurd to think that if, for example, a Frenchman would come to live in a country, the entire country should learn to speak French rather than the one person that isn't from the country should learn the native language over there.[/QUOTE]
it's their bloody choice if they don't speak the language and it's their bloody loss. what business of yours is it?
[QUOTE=Bokito;30779647]I'm not saying we should kick other cultures out, but there are [u]some[/u] (i.e. not all) people who have lived here for over 10 years, and still don't know how to speak Dutch properly. I think it's not that weird of a thought that people should at LEAST try to speak the language of the country they live in. I think it's rather absurd to think that if, for example, a Frenchman would come to live in a country, the entire country should learn to speak French rather than the one person that isn't from the country should learn the native language over there.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but thisispain doesn't believe in that.
[editline]29th June 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;30779655]it's their bloody choice if they don't speak the language and it's their bloody loss. what business of yours is it?[/QUOTE]
see
Personally I think rude to not learn the native language of the country you immigrate to.
[QUOTE=lukepker;30779666]Yeah but thisispain doesn't believe in that.[/QUOTE]
mind your own business. i don't need you to tell other people what i believe and don't believe.
[QUOTE=thisispain;30779615]cool
but it's still dehumanizing and hurtful to black dutch people[/QUOTE]
No it isn't, according to Dutch tradition they're actually white people but because they have to climb down chimneys to deliver presents for the Dutch children their skin has become dark black. This probably sound pretty retarded :v:, anyway back to Dutch politics.
[QUOTE=Bokito;30779647]for example, a Frenchman would come to live in a country, the entire country should learn to speak French rather than the one person that isn't from the country should learn the native language over there.[/QUOTE]
Well no shit, but that's also not happened. Anywhere. And will never happen, because that's a dumb argument. Systems are build for the majority, not the minority.
[QUOTE=lukepker;30779666]
Personally I think rude to not learn the native language of the country you immigrate to.[/QUOTE]
no-one should give a fuck about what lukepker thinks is rude.
[editline]29th June 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=the-dutch-guy;30779689]No it isn't, according to Dutch tradition they're actually white people but because they have to climb down chimneys to deliver presents for the Dutch children their skin has become dark black. This probably sound pretty retarded :v:, anyway back to Dutch politics.[/QUOTE]
not only is it retarded, it also dates back to a very old outdated concept that white people were the original race.
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