[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;31344997]Not apologizing for anything they do, merely pointing out that at this point it's pretty hypocritical to act like we're so much holier and better than them. The Taliban haven't spent the last decade subjecting a foreign country to hostile occupation.[/QUOTE]Oh my god you are so stupid. Yes as a matter of fact any of us that has never murdered a child is better than a group of child murderers.
Unless of course you are some idiot who considers the crimes of anyone in the US to the the crimes of the entire US as a whole.
[QUOTE=ChilColdCoolaid;31345026]Oh my god you are so stupid. Yes as a matter of fact any of us that has never murdered a child is better than a group of child murderers.
Unless of course you are some idiot who considers the crimes of anyone in the US to the the crimes of the entire US as a whole.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/afghanistan/article7087637.ece[/url]
Forgotten about that? Hanging a kid is terrible, but so is shooting two pregnant women, a teenage girl, and two others. Then lying and trying to cover it all up. So is murdering civilians and collecting their fingers for fun.
[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/09/us-soldiers-afghan-civilians-fingers[/url]
Or, one kid? Try nine: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narang_night_raid[/url]
The US has done so many horrific things in this war that I have no tolerance for people who point to stuff like the OP and scream "See? This is why the war is a good thing!" Our trigger-happy tactics and disregard for Afghan lives have left us with no credibility.
WHY?
It's just.. no!
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;31345112][url]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/afghanistan/article7087637.ece[/url]
Forgotten about that? Hanging a kid is terrible, but so is shooting two pregnant women, a teenage girl, and two others. Then lying and trying to cover it all up. So is murdering civilians and collecting their fingers for fun.
[url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/09/us-soldiers-afghan-civilians-fingers[/url]
Or, one kid? Try nine: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narang_night_raid[/url]
The US has done so many horrific things in this war that I have no tolerance for people who point to stuff like the OP and scream "See? This is why the war is a good thing!" Our trigger-happy tactics and disregard for Afghan lives have left us with no credibility.[/QUOTE]Holy shit you are just too stupid to argue with. You completely missed the point of my posts.
I entirely agree that there are people in the US military who have done horrific things. I'm calling you out as an idiot for posts like this
[quote]Oh my god, that's so tragic, I think that--
Whoops, looked like the US smart-bombed another school again. Don't for a second believe that we don't have innocent blood on our hands too. [/quote]
Posts like that imply that we as the entire US are responsible for such actions and that just being a US citizen and calling these people terrible makes us hypocrites. That would be as stupid as saying that the entire middle east has the blood of 9/11 on their hands and therefore anyone from the middle east calling out certain elements of our military for their crimes is automatically a hypocrite.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;31345112][B]Our trigger-happy tactics[/B] and [B]disregard for Afghan lives[/B] have left us with no credibility.[/QUOTE]
What the fuck is wrong with you? Do you have any real clue about our rules of engagement? Or do you think we just carpet bomb entire villages 'just to be safe', while we ride around in our Humvee and gun down crowds of children?
[QUOTE=ChilColdCoolaid;31345194]
Posts like that imply that we as the entire US are responsible for such actions and that just being a US citizen and calling these people terrible makes us hypocrites. That would be as stupid as saying that the entire middle east has the blood of 9/11 on their hands and therefore anyone from the middle east calling out certain elements of our military for their crimes is automatically a hypocrite.[/QUOTE]
...Okay, you make a valid point. "We" may be too much of a blanket statement, and assigns blame collectively rather than individually. The fact that our forces have behaved in a shitty manner doesn't make what the Taliban does any less horrible, and I apologize for that comment. Yes, it's stupid ill-thought out hyperbole.
What I take serious offense to is claims that this behavior somehow justifies continuing the war. I don't feel that the US military at this point can claim much of any moral high ground over our enemies. Our attempted conquest has caused the deaths of far more people than continued Taliban rule ever could have, and I can't look at a report of something bad the Taliban did without thinking of the endless list of appalling actions by US forces.
[QUOTE=Mr. N;31340649]I would have gave the vehicle, but damn, how can a human being hang a child for a piece of machinery? The current situation in the middle east is sick.[/QUOTE]
Stop looking what is in front of you and look at the potential disaster. If they got a hold of a police vehicle they could load it up with bombs and drive right past or to a checkpoint. You realize what that means right? You just sacrificed more then one life for your sons life.
That man made the right decision in my eyes, a very hard decision which will more then likely haunt him.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;31345336]...Okay, you make a valid point. "We" may be too much of a blanket statement, and assigns blame collectively rather than individually. The fact that our forces have behaved in a shitty manner doesn't make what the Taliban does any less horrible, and I apologize for that comment. Yes, it's stupid ill-thought out hyperbole.
What I take serious offense to is claims that this behavior somehow justifies continuing the war. I don't feel that the US military at this point can claim much of any moral high ground over our enemies. Our attempted conquest has caused the deaths of far more people than continued Taliban rule ever could have, and I can't look at a report of something bad the Taliban did without thinking of the endless list of appalling actions by US forces.[/QUOTE]Alright then. I apologize for being so rude with my comments.
[QUOTE=MR-X;31345380]Stop looking what is in front of you and look at the potential disaster. If they got a hold of a police vehicle they could load it up with bombs and drive right past or to a checkpoint. You realize what that means right? You just sacrificed more then one life for your sons life.
That man made the right decision in my eyes, a very hard decision which will more then likely haunt him.[/QUOTE]
True, that was an incredibly courageous decision. It's hard to say what might have happened, but I don't know many people who would risk their own child's life in the hope of preventing the death of others.
[QUOTE=Canesfan;31340579]The fact that we're going after people like this over there definitely strengthens my resolve for this war...[/QUOTE]
The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations.
~David Friedman
Honestly, how do they see this as acceptable behavior?
Of course the US has the moral high-ground over the Taliban. The Taliban, when in official power, subjected their people to horrible, horrible things. After being removed by the Allied forces for supplying a safe-haven for Al Qaeda, they started a guerilla war against the Allies to retake Afghanistan - all this while, they continued slaughtering their own people. Funnily enough, the US doesn't go around massacring Afghani citizens in banks to prove a political point. They don't hang adulterous couples in the village square. They don't blow up girls' schools. They don't conduct warfare against ethnic minorities (e.g. Hazara people). To claim that the US overthrow of the Taliban government was WORSE than leaving it in place is utterly ignorant.
I have a good friend. He was forced to leave Afghanistan after the Taliban charged his father extra taxes for being a Hazara. When he refused, they abducted my friend's eldest brother - he hasn't been seen since. Yet, you claim that when the Allied forces overthrow this reigme, THEY'RE the one in the wrong? Typical mindless anti-Western bullshit.
[QUOTE=faze;31345685]Honestly, how do they see this as acceptable behavior?[/QUOTE]
My guess is they don't know any better, for starters...
[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;31345745]My guess is they don't know any better, for starters...[/QUOTE]And they are all mentally handicapped, and brainwashed.
I hate this stuff. I really do. There are 100 different factions, some power hungry, some religiously fanatic, some honestly just people who are fighting for what they think is their freedom. But it's stuff like this that gives them all bad names. These people deserve what they're going to get, but at the expense of hatred and alienation of all groups opposing us in Afghanistan now. This sort of thing doesn't help any cause. They didn't get their damned vehicles and they didn't get anything besides hatred aimed at them.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];31345838']I hate this stuff. I really do. There are 100 different factions, some power hungry, some religiously fanatic, some honestly just people who are fighting for what they think is their freedom. But it's stuff like this that gives them all bad names. These people deserve what they're going to get, but at the expense of hatred and alienation of all groups opposing us in Afghanistan now. This sort of thing doesn't help any cause. They didn't get their damned vehicles and they didn't get anything besides hatred aimed at them.[/QUOTE]They're an abomination to Islam though. They kill people, the Quaran forbids that.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;31345737]Of course the US has the moral high-ground over the Taliban. The Taliban, when in official power, subjected their people to horrible, horrible things. After being removed by the Allied forces for supplying a safe-haven for Al Qaeda, they started a guerilla war against the Allies to retake Afghanistan - all this while, they continued slaughtering their own people. Funnily enough, the US doesn't go around massacring Afghani citizens in banks to prove a political point. They don't hang adulterous couples in the village square. They don't blow up girls' schools. They don't conduct warfare against ethnic minorities (e.g. Hazara people). To claim that the US overthrow of the Taliban government was WORSE than leaving it in place is utterly ignorant.
I have a good friend. He was forced to leave Afghanistan after the Taliban charged his father extra taxes for being a Hazara. When he refused, they abducted my friend's eldest brother - he hasn't been seen since. Yet, you claim that when the Allied forces overthrow this reigme, THEY'RE the one in the wrong? Typical mindless anti-Western bullshit.[/QUOTE]
Respect and condolences to your friend, and you are absolutely right to say that we have the moral high ground, and that a removal of the taliban from power was good for everyone, but I don't think that justifies the invasion, occupation, puppeteering and disregard for sovereignty of a nation, especially when the natives oppose us in the way they do and make it obvious that our involvement isn't welcome. We're slowly winning over hearts and minds through aid and building, but it's still a "happy occupation", and is still illegal under international law.
[editline]26th July 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=faze;31345866]They're an abomination to Islam though. They kill people, the Quaran forbids that.[/QUOTE]
I don't see how that's relevant. They're murderers of children, they deserve what they have coming, which I hope is arrest or death. War criminals, regardless of their religion. But I'm saying that they ruin any sort of hope for reconciliation for other groups and factions who don't act like this and who are insurgents not because of religious or political reasons, but because of opposition to occupation of their nation by a foreign power, or because of a misguided feeling of revenge for loss of their property or family due to NATO collateral. There are people fighting who fight for fair reasons, but who are either sucked up in groups like this, or are mentally placed in them by NATO and the west. We don't take into account why every insurgent fights, we just see them all as angry bearded men who rape and kill and want to see us dead, when that's not quite the case.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];31345908']Respect and condolences to your friend, and you are absolutely right to say that we have the moral high ground, and that a removal of the taliban from power was good for everyone, but I don't think that justifies the invasion, occupation, puppeteering and disregard for sovereignty of a nation, especially when the natives oppose us in the way they do and make it obvious that our involvement isn't welcome. We're slowly winning over hearts and minds through aid and building, but it's still a "happy occupation", and is still illegal under international law.
[/QUOTE]
The fact that the Taliban still enjoy so much support by the natives is evidence that our hearts and minds campaign is garbage. This documentary is a good explanation of why:
[url]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/kill-capture/[/url]
Our campaign of kicking down doors and shooting/hauling away people in the middle of the night has cost us what little good will we've managed to build up. On top of that, the military leaders like to make excuses to explain away civilian deaths. They blatantly give the Afghan people the impression that we feel it's "worth it" to blow up half a dozen civilians so long as we get our one target person while we're at it. Yes, the Taliban are a terrible regime, but it seems like they still have a lot of support among the Afghans. Maybe it's just ten years of war and occupation making the Taliban rule seem like the good old days, but apparently our conduct is so poor that a lot of people still actively help the Taliban.
If we were doing things right, the Taliban would have no shelter inside the borders of Afghanistan, precisely because their tactics include things like this. But I disagree that we have the moral high ground in Afghanistan, because ten years into this we are still fighting an enemy with a tremendous native support structure in the country.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];31345908']Respect and condolences to your friend, and you are absolutely right to say that we have the moral high ground, and that a removal of the taliban from power was good for everyone, but I don't think that justifies the invasion, occupation, puppeteering and disregard for sovereignty of a nation, especially when the natives oppose us in the way they do and make it obvious that our involvement isn't welcome. We're slowly winning over hearts and minds through aid and building, but it's still a "happy occupation", and is still illegal under international law.
[editline]26th July 2011[/editline]
I don't see how that's relevant. They're murderers of children, they deserve what they have coming, which I hope is arrest or death. War criminals, regardless of their religion. But I'm saying that they ruin any sort of hope for reconciliation for other groups and factions who don't act like this and who are insurgents not because of religious or political reasons, but because of opposition to occupation of their nation by a foreign power, or because of a misguided feeling of revenge for loss of their property or family due to NATO collateral. There are people fighting who fight for fair reasons, but who are either sucked up in groups like this, or are mentally placed in them by NATO and the west. We don't take into account why every insurgent fights, we just see them all as angry bearded men who rape and kill and want to see us dead, when that's not quite the case.[/QUOTE]How isn't it relevant? They say they do it for Allah.
This enforces my negative stereotype view of all people living in middle east, thus I support this destructive and pointless war. I am a republican.
These people are disgusting :(
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