Non-US citizens may be allowed to vote in NYC elections. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;40659753]I think a more plausible scenario would be that politicians promise immigrants life in America in exchange for their votes.[/QUOTE] Visas and green cards will now have political ads.

[QUOTE=Jad Hinto;40659039]So should 10 year olds be able to vote as well?[/QUOTE] Children are usually not mature enough to be able to make and educated vote about anything (read, be able, not actually make it. Yes, there are plenty adults who do not bother making educated voting decisions either, but they could be capable).

[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;40659081]And what citizenship proves is that you [b]are and willing[/b] to live in that society. That has been established since Greek times.[/QUOTE] Actually Greek citizenship basically meant you were capable of defending the Polis, aka males who can afford armaments

[QUOTE=Elecbullet;40659315]ok but ten is pretty fucking stupid[/QUOTE] Agreed, a ten year old barely knows his ass from his balls. An 18 year old is only marginally better, but it's a good cutoff point.

there are certainly instances where a 10 year old should be allowed to vote and make some decisions regarding his/her life. education seems like a major one. if the school provides food, the child should have some say in it, yes?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40661414]there are certainly instances where a 10 year old should be allowed to vote and make some decisions regarding his/her life. education seems like a major one. if the school provides food, the child should have some say in it, yes?[/QUOTE] "We should have McDonalds and vending machines and replace all the water fountains with soda fountains and all the teachers fired and school should be shut down because education is dumb." Definitely responsible.

[QUOTE=asteroidrules;40658848]I just want to be clear on something: I'm rating disagree for Yawmwen's comment (you don't really understand the idea of citizenship do you?), not so much the bill itself. I can understand allowing lawful residents to vote in local elections (this bill only pertains to elections within the New York City government, not the New York State, or United States Federal governments).[/QUOTE] if someone lives in a territory, contributes legally to that territory through taxes and production, why should they be unable to vote? what practical reason is there to deny that person their right to participate in the government? [editline]16th May 2013[/editline] and why on earth would you make the distinction between local and national elections? what makes one okay but not the other?

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;40661600]"We should have McDonalds and vending machines and replace all the water fountains with soda fountains and all the teachers fired and school should be shut down because education is dumb." Definitely responsible.[/QUOTE] yea because that would happen if all those stupid kids were given any responsibility! spare the rod spoil the child etc etc [editline]16th May 2013[/editline] you know in many public schools the children have actually tried to petition against junk food and soda vending machines, right? and it isn't like there aren't a ton of vending machines and fast food in schools anyways. i doubt 10 year olds could ruin the american education system's food service more than it is already ruined.

[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;40661600]"We should have McDonalds and vending machines and replace all the water fountains with soda fountains and all the teachers fired and school should be shut down because education is dumb." Definitely responsible.[/QUOTE] its ironic because adults push for all of that on a daily basis in america

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40661414]there are certainly instances where a 10 year old should be allowed to vote and make some decisions regarding his/her life. education seems like a major one. if the school provides food, the child should have some say in it, yes?[/QUOTE] The decision for what is served in schools is a monetary decision made by local school authorities in accordance with Federal regulations such as the NSLP. No one votes on it. Democratizing that would be needlessly inefficient and costly. That's why we vote for Representatives and Senators. We never vote on individual issues like education. We vote for people who vote for us. That being said, students having concern over what is served at lunch is still perfectly fine and they should express their opinions toward the authority in charge of making that decision. Actions like that should be encouraged because it's the same process that we, as citizens, should be expected to do: Going to our representatives with our concerns and expressing them

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40658722]i got this from a terrible source, if you want a laugh: [URL]http://www.westernjournalism.com/nyc-considering-allowing-foreign-nationals-to-vote-in-elections/[/URL] anyways, this is the actual bill: [URL]http://legistar.council.nyc.gov/LegislationDetail.aspx?ID=803591&GUID=3652CB45-9436-4D4F-ADE3-E17CE8A8AF28&Options=&Search=[/URL] [/U] i say about time. this should be done with national elections as well.[/QUOTE] definitely not national elections, but it does make sense in municipal elections and is semi common in a lot of EU countries. [QUOTE=yawmwen;40661771]yea because that would happen if all those stupid kids were given any responsibility! spare the rod spoil the child etc etc [editline]16th May 2013[/editline] you know in many public schools the children have actually tried to petition against junk food and soda vending machines, right? and it isn't like there aren't a ton of vending machines and fast food in schools anyways. i doubt 10 year olds could ruin the american education system's food service more than it is already ruined.[/QUOTE] That kinda comes down to the school in itself. A lot of schools cooperate a lot with the student council - which is a democratically elected body more often than not -, from out of schools activities to lunches as well. Some other schools on the other hand tend to be very negative for any student involvement. Other schools have little direct access to some things like what food they buy if they are cut out from the finance parts which in some communes is the case.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40659298][img]http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/06/02/business/economy/economix-02graduationrates/economix-02graduationrates-custom1.jpg[/img] a large percentage of people don't graduate high school by the age of 18, should they not be allowed to vote?[/QUOTE] Depends. There really should be a test before being allowed to vote. Too many ignorant people voting without understanding what they are doing or it's effects on the nation.

[QUOTE=Ridge;40665847]Depends. There really should be a test before being allowed to vote. Too many ignorant people voting without understanding what they are doing or it's effects on the nation.[/QUOTE] But this would eliminate truther, patriot, survivalist, and other far right loony groups from voting. They would then all probably pool together and start killing Jews and Blacks.

[QUOTE=Hidole555;40663931]The decision for what is served in schools is a monetary decision made by local school authorities in accordance with Federal regulations such as the NSLP. No one votes on it. Democratizing that would be needlessly inefficient and costly. That's why we vote for Representatives and Senators. We never vote on individual issues like education. We vote for people who vote for us. That being said, students having concern over what is served at lunch is still perfectly fine and they should express their opinions toward the authority in charge of making that decision. Actions like that should be encouraged because it's the same process that we, as citizens, should be expected to do: Going to our representatives with our concerns and expressing them[/QUOTE] i disagree. complaining to a leader should not be the extent of our power. we have allowed representatives to control school food for quite a while and guess how that turned out? maybe students should be given a bit more power over making lunch menus. hell, by giving students more decision-making ability you are essentially training them to make informed decisions later in life. people complain about how kids aren't mature or ready to make decisions like voting, so maybe we should let them get some practice in a school environment! [QUOTE=wraithcat;40664005]definitely not national elections, but it does make sense in municipal elections and is semi common in a lot of EU countries.[/quote] why not national elections? [quote]That kinda comes down to the school in itself. A lot of schools cooperate a lot with the student council - which is a democratically elected body more often than not -, from out of schools activities to lunches as well. Some other schools on the other hand tend to be very negative for any student involvement. Other schools have little direct access to some things like what food they buy if they are cut out from the finance parts which in some communes is the case.[/QUOTE] i think student councils should definitely be given more power. the election should be used as a learning tool for democratic decision-making as well.

I sincerely do not see the problem for this taking place on a local scale.

And people wonder why I am anti-democracy.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40666312]i think student councils should definitely be given more power.[/QUOTE] do you have a death wish

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40666312]i think student councils should definitely be given more power. the election should be used as a learning tool for democratic decision-making as well.[/QUOTE] You're joking, right? Unless you've never been to an average high school, you should know how little student council elections actually have to do with ability or merit. It's more of a popularity contest than a political election.

[QUOTE=Neo Kabuto;40666411]It's more of a popularity contest than a political election.[/QUOTE] what's the difference

[QUOTE=Neo Kabuto;40666411]You're joking, right? Unless you've never been to an average high school, you should know how little student council elections actually have to do with ability or merit. It's more of a popularity contest than a political election.[/QUOTE] and our current elections differ? [editline]16th May 2013[/editline] the elections are largely a simply popularity contest because people don't realize how the elections work or what the student council really does. my high school had absolutely no focus put on explaining student council, it just had all these positions(treasurer, president, etc.) and told us to vote for them. using student body elections can be a wonderful tool in teaching people how to make more informed decisions.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40666460]and our current elections differ?[/QUOTE] So, more, even worse elections would improve something? I'd rather have elections where people vote on the parties the candidates are in than the parties the candidates throw. [QUOTE=yawmwen;40666460] the elections are largely a simply popularity contest because people don't realize how the elections work or what the student council really does. my high school had absolutely no focus put on explaining student council, it just had all these positions(treasurer, president, etc.) and told us to vote for them. using student body elections can be a wonderful tool in teaching people how to make more informed decisions.[/QUOTE] My high school did put the effort in, even having the candidates making campaign ads that we all had to sit through. It changed nothing. No one cared about anything other than who they knew.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40666460]using student body elections can be a wonderful tool in teaching people how to make more informed decisions.[/QUOTE] How?

democracy fuckin sucks anyway can we just make it so that everyone fights to the death and whoever wins is ruler and has absolute power

[QUOTE=Neo Kabuto;40666490] My high school did put the effort in, even having the candidates making campaign ads that we all had to sit through. It changed nothing. No one cared about anything other than who they knew.[/QUOTE] how much power did the student council have and was their influence well articulated? [QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40666498]How?[/QUOTE] because voting and democracy are some of the most powerful forms of decision-making out there. by training people to understand voting and democracy, it allows them to get better at analyzing choices and choosing one that they feel is in their best interest.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40666603]because voting and democracy are some of the most powerful forms of decision-making out there.[/quote] Where is the evidence for this? If it is so effective then why is it not utilized more by the private sector? [quote]by training people to understand voting and democracy, it allows them to get better at analyzing choices and choosing one that they feel is in their best interest.[/QUOTE] Are you sure it won't simply encourage tribal, ingroupish behavior?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;40666603]how much power did the student council have and was their influence well articulated?[/QUOTE] They got to plan all the events for the year, and run the fundraising for them. I'm sure there were some more things they could do, but none of really did anything they weren't required to (which was the events and finding money for the events).

When you reduce it to a choice between candidates rather than deciding on an actual issue it all just deteriorates into a popularity contest circle jerk. I'd like to think some kind of decentralized direct democracy based decision making process would work better but that would depend on the implementation and whether capitalism inevitably continued to interfere with it's prick waving power grabbing contests and corruption.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40666652]Where is the evidence for this? If it is so effective then why is it not utilized more by the private sector?[/quote] because the private sector is more concerned with profits than allowing people to make their own decisions. [quote]Are you sure it won't simply encourage tribal, ingroupish behavior?[/QUOTE] some would say humans act tribal and ingroupish regardless of whether we have elections or not.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40666652]If it is so effective then why is it not utilized more by the private sector?[/QUOTE] Well, there are shareholder elections, but they're kind of meaningless.

[QUOTE=JustExtreme;40666680]When you reduce it to a choice between candidates rather than deciding on an actual issue it all just deteriorates into a popularity contest circle jerk. I'd like to think some kind of decentralized direct democracy based decision making process would work better but that would depend on the implementation and whether capitalism inevitably continued to interfere with it's prick waving power grabbing contests and corruption.[/QUOTE] direct democracy would overwhelmingly favor the upper class, the working class hardly has the time to invest in deciding on an issue by issue basis, especially not in any informed capacity