• Federal Europe will be 'a reality in a few years', says Jose Manuel Barroso
    287 replies, posted
[QUOTE=butt2089;40561907]Is this the same Scotland who will shortly be voting whether they want to leave the union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland?[/QUOTE] and going by current opinion polls will be voting to stay in the union.
[QUOTE=Vasili;40561906]the only use a federal europe would have is to swing its weight around in politics and be a major world power.[/QUOTE] Or not to be the pawn of others. (AmericanChinaHintHint).
[QUOTE=Hellduck;40561745]well if you think that's the case then perhaps you should look at other federal nations, or countries that have undergone personal union. England is very different from Scotland in its culture, but they have been in a state of personal union for ~300 years[/QUOTE] no, scotland has a veneer of a national identity half invented by mel gibson but everything beneath the skin is english to the core. the reason is because the english destroyed a lot of scottish culture a few hundred years ago, leaving the country emasculated and weak. england:scotland is not the same thing as say, britain:france
[QUOTE=Hellduck;40561899]an idealogical sense of unity between all people that is sorely lacking. this is a step towards that i think.[/QUOTE] I agree that all humans should feel aligned with other humans, that whole thing about being a species together, but I don't think that a European Fed would be a very good way of doing that. it's something that should come naturally as cultures develop stronger on their own.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;40561899]an idealogical sense of unity between all people that is sorely lacking. this is a step towards that i think.[/QUOTE] do you not realize how fucking creepy this post is
[QUOTE=Graavis;40561949]I agree that all humans should feel aligned with other humans, that whole thing about being a species together, but I don't think that a European Fed would be a very good way of doing that. it's something that should come naturally as cultures develop stronger on their own.[/QUOTE] And how would uniting Europe slow down development of culture? If anything, a sense of voting for the same leaders should result in more cultural unity.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;40561932]Or not to be the pawn of others. (AmericanChinaHintHint).[/QUOTE] thats my point, the only reason you want a federal europe is so you can push your weight around in politics which to be frank is the most stupid reason I can think of to actually unify a continent, just a warmongering and power stroking fantasy.
[QUOTE=butt2089;40561859]A federal Europe will ensure that the Euro lives on, if Europe does not become on superstate then the Euro is finished. Differing Fiscal policy between countries without trade boundaries was never going to work..[/QUOTE] Euro was a bad idea to begin with.
[QUOTE=Vasili;40561972]thats my point, the only reason you want a federal europe is so you can push your weight around in politics which to be frank is the most stupid reason I can think of to actually unify a continent, just a warmongering and power stroking fantasy.[/QUOTE] No, it's so that they don't get pushed around.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40561936]no, scotland has a veneer of a national identity half invented by mel gibson but everything beneath the skin is english to the core. the reason is because the english destroyed a lot of scottish culture a few hundred years ago, leaving the country emasculated and weak. england:scotland is not the same thing as say, britain:france[/QUOTE] whether its authentic or not is irrelevant, the scottish national identity (which is - im fully - aware largely invented elsewhere, but no matter) is different to the english one.
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40561966]And how would uniting Europe slow down development of culture? If anything, a sense of voting for the same leaders should result in more cultural unity.[/QUOTE] heterodoxy is required for cultural development. as the limiting case, look at how culture stagnated and decayed in nazi germany
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40561953]do you not realize how fucking creepy this post is[/QUOTE] well clearly i dont, sorry.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;40561978]No, it's so that they don't get pushed around.[/QUOTE] doesn't take a federal europe to not be politically bullied.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;40561923]and going by current opinion polls will be voting to stay in the union.[/QUOTE] 47% Yes, 32% No, 20% Undecided - not a shining example of a satisfied union
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40561966]And how would uniting Europe slow down development of culture? If anything, a sense of voting for the same leaders should result in more cultural unity.[/QUOTE] I feel that there has been some miscommunication. To rephrase what I meant. The price of strengthening a European Culture would be to weaken a huge ammount of cultures that deserve their own identity. It depresses me to imagine a world where Dutch, German, Italian, French, and whatever else all disolve into Europrean culture.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;40561983]whether its authentic or not is irrelevant, the scottish national identity (which is - im fully - aware largely invented elsewhere, but no matter) is different to the english one.[/QUOTE] The Scottish nation does not exist. We are practically Englishmen.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40561989]heterodoxy is required for cultural development. as the limiting case, look at how culture stagnated and decayed in nazi germany[/QUOTE] But the EU isn't about removing heterodoxy. It's about allowing people across Europe to unite in the things that matter, like a unified foreign policy and which way to steer the continent, which is more effective than having everyone trying to go in different directions at once.
[QUOTE=Hellduck;40561992]well clearly i dont, sorry.[/QUOTE] ok i'll spell it out for you: you want to spread your ideology to everyone and you want to use political power to attain this end
[QUOTE=Graavis;40561997]I feel that there has been some miscommunication. To rephrase what I meant. The price of strengthening a European Culture would be to weaken a huge ammount of cultures that deserve their own identity. It depresses me to imagine a world where Dutch, German, Italian, French, and whatever else all disolve into Europrean culture.[/QUOTE] Except that isn't necessary. There's a difference between Flemish and Walloon culture (although that isn't the best example for the moment) but Belgium is a country. There's a difference between New England and California, but that doesn't interfere with the federal things going on in the USA.
This is the kind of shit that will lead to another world war.
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40562011]But the EU isn't about removing heterodoxy. It's about allowing people across Europe to unite in the things that matter, like a unified foreign policy and which way to steer the continent, which is more effective than having everyone trying to go in different directions at once.[/QUOTE] red herring. this isn't what the EU is "about", it's what will actually happen. negating "everyong going in different directions at once" is removing heterodoxy by definition
[QUOTE=V12US;40562049]This is the kind of shit that will lead to another world war.[/QUOTE] Stop playing cheesy FPS's and get back to reality.
[QUOTE=V12US;40562049]This is the kind of shit that will lead to another world war.[/QUOTE] this isn't a thing which can happen
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562052]red herring. this isn't what the EU is "about", it's what will actually happen. negating "everyong going in different directions at once" is removing heterodoxy by definition[/QUOTE] No, because if you don't like the political party that's in power right now, you can vote for another one. You're giving the people an alternative to the status quo (which you didn't have in nazi Germany)
[QUOTE=Vasili;40561994]doesn't take a federal europe to not be politically bullied.[/QUOTE] And besides being more resistant to being pushed about, another superpower to counterbalance the Americans and Chinese might be useful.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562029]ok i'll spell it out for you: you want to spread your ideology to everyone and you want to use political power to attain this end[/QUOTE] it didnt sound that dystopian in my head. clearly i need to have a quiet think.
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40562035]Except that isn't necessary. There's a difference between Flemish and Walloon culture (although that isn't the best example for the moment) but Belgium is a country. There's a difference between New England and California, but that doesn't interfere with the federal things going on in the USA.[/QUOTE] the cultural differences between US states are tiny because they were created in a relatively short space of time during a vast colonial explosion. they are basically descended from roughly the same, mostly anglo-saxon/germanic/irish people, modulo different immigrants coming later from the different oceans. comparisons to america are also misleading because europe is a much more densely populated place, where profound cultural differences can be found at the other end of a few hours' car journey.
[QUOTE=DaysBefore;40561727]Union with England didn't destroy Scottish culture.[/QUOTE] It's watering down, though. Most Scottish military units are being amalgated into a single unit called the "Royal Scottish Brigade." In my opinion, it's gobshite, but my family has served the Queen with honor for years. I don't know, Federal Europe could work, but division in culture could slowly rip them apart.
[QUOTE=Teddybeer;40561682]Nope, Dutch.[/QUOTE] It was a joke, English people like to pretend they're in the middle of the pacific etc.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562029]ok i'll spell it out for you: you want to spread your ideology to everyone and you want to use political power to attain this end[/QUOTE] whats wrong with that if your ideology is going to be good for the people
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.