Federal Europe will be 'a reality in a few years', says Jose Manuel Barroso
287 replies, posted
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562250]you hit the point exactly. in short, I see the system as it is and you do not.
democracy is civil war by other means.[/QUOTE]
Aside from the absurdity of this comparison (check your political stability privileges, yo), it's better to have a war of money, words and ballots rather than bullets.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;40561449]Like seriously. There's too much cultural and economic division for it to work.[/QUOTE]
Why is that a problem. I agree if it's exactly like the USA it wouldn't work, but further co-operation and federalisation isn't a bad thing.
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40562238]And our government is doing things. The EU is doing things, even better than my current government, if I said so.[/QUOTE]
of course you'd think that, Belgium is probably the most incompetent none country in europe and has to have the whole of europe look after it.
[QUOTE=DaysBefore;40561727]Union with England didn't destroy Scottish culture.[/QUOTE]
It partially has for Wales, though - Wales is barely even recognised as a country now.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562278]pretty much
[img]http://radishmag.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/2-5-ice-cream-diversity.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
The problem in your reasoning is that you're assuming that the EU will melt all cultures together. Despite the fact that the European Court of Justice always tries to keep culture in mind when judging whether national laws or EU law should be applied, for one. Part of the EU is exactly that: keeping diversity.
Uniting Europe doesn't mean we suddenly lose cultural identity and shit like that. It means trade, research, legal and defence matters can be centralized and handled far more efficiently.
[QUOTE=Graavis;40562280]democracy =/= freedom. especially if you are one of the minorities ./agreed[/QUOTE]
Only if you live in a shit country that isn't a real democracy. In actual democracies, the constitution protects minorities, you know. As a matter of fact, the whole "political correctness gone mad" thing that people sometimes shout is the exact opposite of what you're saying: they get the impression that minorities are being overprotected.
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40562324]The problem in your reasoning is that you're assuming that the EU will melt all cultures together. Despite the fact that the European Court of Justice always tries to keep culture in mind when judging whether national laws or EU law should be applied, for one. Part of the EU is exactly that: keeping diversity.[/QUOTE]
It is a product of a unions to merge cultures and bring down national barriers to unite people. That is why England killed Welsh and Scottish nationalism and almost did the same with Ireland; they were fed up of all the fucking rebellions. France did the same to many of its regions (especially Normandy).
[QUOTE=David29;40562316]It partially has for Wales, though - Wales is barely even recognised as a country now.[/QUOTE]
Well it hasn't been for 500 years.
Times change, and Wales is no longer really a country, much like Burgundy, Aragon, Naples, or Flanders.
[editline]7th May 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Vasili;40562343]It is a product of a unions to merge cultures and bring down national barriers to unite people. That is why England killed Welsh and Scottish nationalism and almost did the same with Ireland; they were fed up of all the fucking rebellions.[/QUOTE]
Scottish and Welsh Nationalism only really appeared long after those countries ceased to be sovereign.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;40562302]Aside from the absurdity of this comparison (check your political stability privileges, yo), it's better to have a war of money, words and ballots rather than bullets.[/QUOTE]
yes but better than both is no war at all
[editline]7th May 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40562324]The problem in your reasoning is that you're assuming that the EU will melt all cultures together. Despite the fact that the European Court of Justice always tries to keep culture in mind when judging whether national laws or EU law should be applied, for one. Part of the EU is exactly that: keeping diversity.[/QUOTE]
source
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562351]yes but better than both is no war at all[/QUOTE]
Then how do you make your political system work?
Oh, wait. I'm talking to an idiot who thinks that you can actually have a benevolent dictator.
Fuck off EU, Our country is perfectly fine making up it's own rules.
[QUOTE=Vasili;40562343]It is a product of a unions to merge cultures and bring down national barriers to unite people. That is why England killed Welsh and Scottish nationalism and almost did the same with Ireland; they were fed up of all the fucking rebellions. France did the same to many of its regions (especially Normandy).[/QUOTE]
Lmao what are you even saying
nationalism wasn't even a thing when the UK got united. You had Kings fighting eachother, not nations, and nationalism sprung up in the 18th-19th centuries. It's only then, when the political/cultural leaders of countries didn't know what to do, that putting them to the sword/musket was an option. In the 21st century, we know what nationalism is and we can form a state that is prepared to take things like culture into account without erasing it, something that few people thought of back then
Like all those projects the EU does? Renovating cultural sites? Protecting them? Funding education of the Irish language and so on?
Or about Friesland in the Netherlands, which still practically has its own language after all those years?
Basically, if they actually do this, the EU is (hopefully) headed for a non-shitty confederation. Hopefully they don't do a full-fledged federation, the current states should absolutely stay sovereign.
Seems fine to me.
Now can we get the same in the US, please? The Articles of Confederation failed, but we can do better this time, I promise!
Why are you assuming that a federation would make it impossible to have the various nations preserve their national consciousness and culture? There literally is no reason that would happen as far as the Federation wouldn't pull a Federization (as in, Rusification or Germanization) of sorts, and if that would happen there's no way said Federation would last either way.
It's like somebody says "It's nice to have all fruits in one bowl" and somebody hears "It's nice to have all fruits in a blender".
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;40562371]Then how do you make your political system work?
Oh, wait. I'm talking to an idiot who thinks that you can actually have a benevolent dictator.[/QUOTE]
[t]http://radishmag.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/2-4-frederick-ii.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562351]source[/QUOTE]
[url]http://curia.europa.eu/juris/recherche.jsf?language=en[/url]
Just go for it, due to the nature of the EU court of justice, at least half of their jurisprudence is about conflicts between national and EU interests, and trying to find a balance.
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40562381]Lmao what are you even saying
nationalism wasn't even a thing when the UK got united. You had Kings fighting eachother, not nations, and nationalism sprung up in the 18th-19th centuries. It's only then, when the political/cultural leaders of countries didn't know what to do, that putting them to the sword/musket was an option. In the 21st century, we know what nationalism is and we can form a state that is prepared to take things like culture into account without erasing it, something that few people thought of back then
Like all those projects the EU does? Renovating cultural sites? Protecting them? Funding education of the Irish language and so on?
Or about Friesland in the Netherlands, which still practically has its own language after all those years?[/QUOTE]
I'm saying a none country tried to preach its united earth philosophy near me and it made me feel ill
[QUOTE=butt2089;40561907]Is this the same Scotland who will shortly be voting whether they want to leave the union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland?[/QUOTE]
You don't really have a point unless the vote yes. The reason they are having a vote is they voted a party in that one of it's policies was to have an referendum on independence, but don't necessarily want to vote yes.
The UK is a diverse place and it has held together despite this, I don't see why this would be a problem for europe as a whole.
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40562413][url]http://curia.europa.eu/juris/recherche.jsf?language=en[/url]
Just go for it, due to the nature of the EU court of justice, at least half of their jurisprudence is about conflicts between national and EU interests, and trying to find a balance.[/QUOTE]
but such a conflict should not even exist in the first place were the EU not to exist.
[QUOTE=Kingy_ME;40562420]You don't really have a point unless the vote yes. The reason they are having a vote is they voted a party in that one of it's policies was to have an referendum on independence, but don't necessarily want to vote yes.
The UK is a diverse place and it has held together despite this, I don't see why this would be a problem for europe as a whole.[/QUOTE]
The UK is a hell of a lot less diverse than all of Europe.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562429]but such a conflict should not even exist in the first place were the EU not to exist.[/QUOTE]
That's silly, so you're saying conflicts between provinces and whatever country you live in wouldn't exist if your country didn't exist. By that logic, every street should be independent to prevent conflicts between your neighbourhood and the municipality or whatever
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40562452]That's silly, so you're saying conflicts between provinces and whatever country you live in wouldn't exist if your country didn't exist. By that logic, every street should be independent to prevent conflicts between your neighbourhood and the municipality or whatever[/QUOTE]
but that would be anarchy
I actually thought it said Feudal Europe would become a reality in a few years.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562404][t]http://radishmag.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/2-4-frederick-ii.jpg[/t][/QUOTE]
Dat's only good until the current good guy kicks off. What happens when you have to replace him, for whatever reason?
[QUOTE=Vasili;40562415]I'm saying a none country tried to preach its united earth philosophy near me and it made me feel ill[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what you're talking about right now
If you're trying to say Belgium isn't an actual country, then yeah, I'm certain our politicians back in 1831 could have gotten up with a better idea than "stamp out anything that isn't French-speaking" but whatever
I actually thought it said Feudal Europe would become a reality in a few years. :v:
[QUOTE=Djessey;40562375]Fuck off EU, Our country is perfectly fine making up it's own rules.[/QUOTE]
In a century or two: "Fuck off United World Federation, the EU is perfectly fine making up its own rules".
And a few millennia on: "Fuck off Galactic Alliance, the Solar Federation is perfectly fine making up its own rules".
etc.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562404][t]http://radishmag.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/2-4-frederick-ii.jpg[/t][/QUOTE]
[b]SHIT[/b] you're whitty, what with all of these fancy color posters and such!
You sure proved your point and showed them all, I bet!
[QUOTE=Kingy_ME;40562420]You don't really have a point unless the vote yes. The reason they are having a vote is they voted a party in that one of it's policies was to have an referendum on independence, but don't necessarily want to vote yes.
The UK is a diverse place and it has held together despite this, I don't see why this would be a problem for europe as a whole.[/QUOTE]
47% say no, 32% say yes, 20% aren't sure - it would appear that people are not entirely satisfied with a union that has existed for over 300 years.
Do you think that further fiscal integration of 27 countries will be as simple as Scotland and England? Greece has unemployment of 27%, debt to GDP over 160% and 10Y bond yields at 10%. Germany on the other hand has unemployment just above 5%, a debt to GDP of 80% and 10Y bond yields hovering around 1%.
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