Federal Europe will be 'a reality in a few years', says Jose Manuel Barroso
287 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Clavus;40562477]In a century or two: "Fuck off United World Federation, the EU is perfectly fine making up its own rules".
And a few millennia on: "Fuck off Galactic Alliance, the Solar Federation is perfectly fine making up its own rules".
etc.[/QUOTE]
Reminds me of reading some texts from back in the 16th century
"Fuck off, Seventeen provinces, Brabant is perfectly fine making up its own rules"
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;40562472]Dat's only good until the current good guy kicks off. What happens when you have to replace him, for whatever reason?[/QUOTE]
the landmass is incorporated as a joint stock company, when the old ceo dies or is fired, the shareholders elect a new ceo
this is better than monarchy because it overcomes the obvious inbreeding/nepotism/genetic pot-luck aspect (their parallel is family businesses), and better than democracy because the shareholders are united in their goals - i.e. to make money, and so will combine their information in a provably efficient way, which will make for a more competent Sovereign.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562520]the landmass is incorporated as a joint stock company, when the old ceo dies or is fired, the shareholders elect a new ceo
this is better than monarchy because it overcomes the obvious inbreeding/nepotism/genetic pot-luck aspect (their parallel is family businesses), and better than democracy because the shareholders are united in their goals - i.e. to make money, and so will combine their information in a provably efficient way, which will make for a more competent Sovereign.[/QUOTE]
I don't know about you, but politicians are already trying to fill their pockets with wads of money as it is, and having the media and voters breathing down their necks is more of an incentive to work better than "lods of emone" ever will be
Like holy shit just imagine how shitty the world would be if greedy corporations controlled countries. It'd be like the Republican party being in power except everywhere all the time
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40562542]I don't know about you, but politicians are already trying to fill their pockets with wads of money as it is, and having the media and voters breathing down their necks is more of an incentive to work better than "lods of emone" ever will be[/QUOTE]
so why doesn't the private sector cash in on this democracy thing if it's so effective
and I also think you're severely overestimating how much politicians actually do. you need to realize that the media and the universities and the NGOs don't "influence" the government, they are [I]branches[/I] of the government. that isn't to say that the formal government controls them, it's that the formal government and these orbital organizations act as a kind of organic mass which exercises de facto sovereign control over the country.
And a federal europe would be completely shitty for western Europe.
Like I mean seriously. It would fuck over most progress that these countries have been working for because of eastern european views on things like homosexuality and generally their lack of progression socially.
[editline]7th May 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=David29;40562316]It partially has for Wales, though - Wales is barely even recognised as a country now.[/QUOTE]
The thing about Wales is that the only part of it that is actually welsh was the one area that managed to stand out in the mountains the longest. It's just not even really considered anything since it didn't diplomatically merge like Scotland did with England.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562520]the landmass is incorporated as a joint stock company, when the old ceo dies or is fired, the shareholders elect a new ceo
this is better than monarchy because it overcomes the obvious inbreeding/nepotism/genetic pot-luck aspect (their parallel is family businesses), and better than democracy because the shareholders are united in their goals - i.e. to make money, and so will combine their information in a provably efficient way, which will make for a more competent Sovereign.[/QUOTE]
Anyone whose seen the way current corps are run and who thinks that they should be put in charge of country... is unutterably stupid. Yeah, a goddam klepocracy run for the explicit benefit of a small group of rich wankers (instead of having to at least have the appearance of giving a fuck about other people besides the rich wankers) is better than a modern democracy? You're dumber than rocks, sorry.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;40562628]Anyone whose seen the way current corps are run and who thinks that they should be put in charge of country... is unutterably stupid. Yeah, a goddam klepocracy run for the explicit benefit of a small group of rich wankers (instead of having to at least have the appearance of giving a fuck about other people besides the rich wankers) is better than a modern democracy? You're dumber than rocks, sorry.[/QUOTE]
ahem
singapore
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562651]ahem
singapore[/QUOTE]
And it's an authoritarian regime that has little freedoms and the wealth disparity is extreme.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40562651]ahem
singapore[/QUOTE]
That is a country where homosexual intercourse is illegal and caning people as punishment is.
Again, you are stupider than the quartz clock in my computer.
[QUOTE=David29;40562316]It partially has for Wales, though - Wales is barely even recognised as a country now.[/QUOTE]
Well that was a conquest, not a union. Like Ireland. Or Scotland when the English did try to conquer it.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;40562731]And it's an authoritarian regime that has little freedoms and the wealth disparity is extreme.[/QUOTE]
Dain is a reactionary. All the pictures he posted in this thread are from the [URL=http://radishmag.wordpress.com/]Radish magazine[/URL].
awwwh, so cute
it thinks its america
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;40562780]Dain is a [i]idiot[/i].[/QUOTE]
You might as well not beat about the bush.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;40562807]You might as well not beat about the bush.[/QUOTE]
I still think he can get better ;_;
All you have to do Dain is stop reading Mike Anissimov's twitter.
Keep it civil, though. I mean, I can get what he's getting at, somewhat (trying to find something more efficient than democracy) but trust me when I say that concentrating power in any way is a shit idea, even moreso if you're putting people in charge who think that money is the absolute goal to life.
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;40562835]I still think he can get better ;_;
All you have to do Dain is stop reading Mike Anissimov's twitter.[/QUOTE]
lesswrong is a gateway drug
[editline]7th May 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;40562731]And it's an authoritarian regime that has little freedoms and the wealth disparity is extreme.[/QUOTE]
it has little [I]political[/I] freedoms - economic and personal freedoms are high.
[editline]7th May 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;40562743]That is a country where homosexual intercourse is illegal and caning people as punishment is.
Again, you are stupider than the quartz clock in my computer.[/QUOTE]
1) that law isn't enforced so it de facto does not exist.
2) are you really going to claim that jail is preferable to caning? how's that stockholm syndrome working out for you?
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40563039]1) that law isn't enforced so it de facto does not exist.
[/QUOTE]
Is the chewing gum ban enforced?
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;40563076]Is the chewing gum ban enforced?[/QUOTE]
yes, I don't like walking around in filth
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40563039]2) are you really going to claim that jail is preferable to caning? how's that stockholm syndrome working out for you?[/QUOTE]
What the hell man, yes
The idea behind jailing is that we can reeducate them through labour (although a lot of countries aren't applying it that way) instead of just hurting them and hoping they'll stop doing bad things
We went through this discussion in the 18th century
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40563101]What the hell man, yes
The idea behind jailing is that we can reeducate them through labour (although a lot of countries aren't applying it that way)
We went through this discussion in the 18th century[/QUOTE]
you are found guilty of X offense, you go up before the judge, the judge offers you two options:
3 years in prison
100 hits of the cane
what sane person would pick the first one
[editline]7th May 2013[/editline]
(disclaimer i am a masochist so i may not fully understand what it feels like)
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40563119]you are found guilty of X offense, you go up before the judge, the judge offers you two options:
3 years in prison
100 hits of the cane
what sane person would pick the first one
[editline]7th May 2013[/editline]
(disclaimer i am a masochist so i may not fully understand what it feels like)[/QUOTE]
Now at first glace caning seems like the better option, but one might end up like that guy who had himself waterboarded in public to prove it wasn't torture and almost drowned in the first couple of seconds.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40563119]you are found guilty of X offense, you go up before the judge, the judge offers you two options:
3 years in prison
100 hits of the cane
what sane person would pick the first one[/QUOTE]
Who cares what the perp will choose? We need to pick whichever works out best for society.
[QUOTE=deltasquid;40563141]Who cares what the perp will choose? We need to pick whichever works out best for society.[/QUOTE]
yes, the perp can go back and become a functioning member of society and a productive participant in the economy instead of having bed and board paid for in full by the taxpayer for several years
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo_-KoBiBG0[/media]
Let this historic enterprise complete what it was set out to do 60 years ago.
[QUOTE=Graavis;40561699]I think a European fed would undermine the extremly unique cultural flavours of the individual countries of Europe.[/QUOTE]
How?
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40563161]yes, the perp can go back and become a functioning member of society and a productive participant in the economy instead of having bed and board paid for in full by the taxpayer for several years[/QUOTE]
"Shit, I got caught while stealing bread. Better not get caught next time and avoid them floggings! Also I am too wounded to work effectively for months, better steal more shit." versus "Man, sitting here isn't fun, but I actually pooled together some cash from the work in this prison and had time to mull over my actions. Guess this working stuff isn't as bad as I thought"
I know we're sparring with extremes here, but obviously a shitty jail system is just as bad as flogging people. You don't need to (only) punish, you need to give them a way to escape whatever situation they were in that made them commit such crime. Only hurting them breeds hatred instead of productivity.
Again, Beccaria already said this stuff.
[QUOTE=ECrownofFire;40562443]The UK is a hell of a lot less diverse than all of Europe.[/QUOTE]
Yes but it is more sovereign than a federal Europe would be.
[QUOTE=Kingy_ME;40563276]Yes but it is more sovereign than a federal Europe would be.[/QUOTE]
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you but that seems to have no relation whatsoever with what the guy you're quoting was saying? Diversity has little to do with sovereignty.
[QUOTE=butt2089;40562504]47% say no, 32% say yes, 20% aren't sure - it would appear that people are not entirely satisfied with a union that has existed for over 300 years.
Do you think that further fiscal integration of 27 countries will be as simple as Scotland and England? Greece has unemployment of 27%, debt to GDP over 160% and 10Y bond yields at 10%. Germany on the other hand has unemployment just above 5%, a debt to GDP of 80% and 10Y bond yields hovering around 1%.[/QUOTE]
I don't agree with the time scale of the article, all I'm arguing is that furthering the EU would be a good thing if managed well. I vote yes to EU stuff, but I don't know how to do it because I'm a physics student not a politics or economics professor.
[QUOTE=Kingy_ME;40563312]I don't agree with the time scale of the article, all I'm arguing is that furthering the EU would be a good thing [b]if managed well[/b]. I vote yes to EU stuff, but I don't know how to do it because I'm a physics student not a politics or economics professor.[/QUOTE]
So yeah, I'd like to bold this part for everyone to see because if we nail this then there's no reason we can't unify Europe
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.