• Federal Europe will be 'a reality in a few years', says Jose Manuel Barroso
    287 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Mythman;40564381]I agree, the first thing that springs to my mind is the Holy Roman Empire. Arguably the first 'federal' 'state' of history.[/QUOTE] yeah and this time therell be a lot less rape, genocide, and slavery everyone wins
Eeeh i dont really see that happening. Who would rule this federation first of all? There would be too much vying for control of the union, and that leader could turn out to be terrible.
[QUOTE=borisvdb;40564453]Eeeh i dont really see that happening. Who would rule this federation first of all? There would be too much vying for control of the union, and that leader could turn out to be terrible.[/QUOTE] they are democratically elected... this is your current "ruler": [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Van_Rompuy[/url]
I'd rather have my own Government making up the rules I live by
[QUOTE=thisispain;40564486]they are democratically elected... this is your current "ruler": [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Van_Rompuy[/url][/QUOTE] How many europeans do you think even remember voting for that guy? Hell, how many have even heard of him?
If this becomes a reality, Germany will have to hold up other countries even more. How can lower European countries take pride in being parasitic?
[QUOTE=Latex;40564811]How many europeans do you think even remember voting for that guy? Hell, how many have even heard of him?[/QUOTE] whos fault is that any european can google this shit for 12 fucking seconds its not an authoritarian empire just because you cant be arsed to vote young western europeans have it so fucking easy, they have no idea what its like to not be able to vote. to have a government that outright tells them it doesnt give a shit about them.
[QUOTE=Teddybeer;40564826]You were allowed to vote for him?[/QUOTE] It's not a direct election, he's appointed head of the European Council by your individual heads of government/state (varying). Generally speaking, you vote for candidates of your party of choice, and the winning party's leader is the head of government. These people serve as representatives of your national government and thus elect a Europe-wide chair of this particular council. What's hard to understand about that?
[QUOTE=thisispain;40564997]whos fault is that any european can google this shit for 12 fucking seconds its not an authoritarian empire just because you cant be arsed to vote young western europeans have it so fucking easy, they have no idea what its like to not be able to vote. to have a government that outright tells them it doesnt give a shit about them.[/QUOTE] You seem to think that lot's of people in Europe have any idea who the fuck this guy is and what he does. Hell I bet most people don't even know this guy exists because I sure have never been told this guy even existed and visiting this thread is the first time I've heard of him. Maybe it's just in England but people don't pay attention to all those Euro-politicians or whatever you want to call them.
[QUOTE=Cats meow;40565122]You seem to think that lot's of people in Europe have any idea who the fuck this guy is and what he does. Hell I bet most people don't even know this guy exists because I sure have never been told this guy even existed and visiting this thread is the first time I've heard of him. Maybe it's just in England but people don't pay attention to all those Euro-politicians or whatever you want to call them.[/QUOTE] And how is the fact that you don't know who he is his fault exactly? I mean, if I never watched the news, never read the newspaper, and never paid attention to anything even tangentially related to politics I probably wouldn't know who the president is, but that's not a point against him, that's a point against me.
[QUOTE=Cats meow;40565122]You seem to think that lot's of people in Europe have any idea who the fuck this guy is and what he does. Hell I bet most people don't even know this guy exists because I sure have never been told this guy even existed and visiting this thread is the first time I've heard of him. Maybe it's just in England but people don't pay attention to all those Euro-politicians or whatever you want to call them.[/QUOTE] yeah you dont have to give a shit. its all done for you anyway. you have a political system that at the very least operates under the notion that it is for YOU. i mean the UK already gets so many perks and even gets to pick when it wants to join the eurozone, and its citizens dont even care enough to educate themselves about how the EU political system works yet they still want to complain about the eu give me a break [editline]7th May 2013[/editline] im english and i dont even know how anyone in europe can stand us
[QUOTE=thisispain;40565206]yeah you dont have to give a shit. its all done for you anyway. you have a political system that at the very least operates under the notion that it is for YOU. i mean the UK already gets so many perks and even gets to pick when it wants to join the eurozone, and its citizens dont even care enough to educate themselves about how the EU political system works yet they still want to complain about the eu give me a break [editline]7th May 2013[/editline] im english and i dont even know how anyone in europe can stand us[/QUOTE] Well whatever this guy does I guess nobody hears about it.
[QUOTE=Cats meow;40564716]I'd rather have my own Government making up the rules I live by[/QUOTE] It'd still be your government, it's just the people you'd be voting for go to Brussels rather than whatever your capital is, at least under the schemes where they amalgamate government instead of having the locals governments choose a Representative and send it to Brussels.
In America, we don't have thousands of years of war and horrible ethnic fighting, etc. on our soil. So we can incorporate anybody into our big melting pot. A unified Europe would never work in the near future because of this sort of thing if you ask me.
[QUOTE=kaine123;40565326]In America, we don't have thousands of years of war and horrible ethnic fighting, etc. on our soil. So we can incorporate anybody into our big melting pot. A unified Europe would never work in the near future because of this sort of thing if you ask me.[/QUOTE] you know no-ones physically moving the countries together if we can manage to not have a race-war right now then i think well be fine :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=thisispain;40564199]umm you ignore the fact that the european states have been federalised thousands of times throughout history. if federalism doesnt work in europe someone needs to explain the existence of germany [editline]7th May 2013[/editline] if germany can have the numerous amount of cultures within its borders AND be federalised then why is it an issue[/QUOTE] Dude. Germany was federalized by force. Prussia already had control of all of Northern Germany and the only states that weren't in their grasp by unification were Bavaria and Baden-Wurtenburg. They formed it because it was basically, If you don't form with us, we will force you to form with us since we have the mightiest fucking army on the planet right now.
and that changes what exactly? my point was that federalisation was not some kind of weird obscure concept that only exists in america.
The only reason why it worked was because they were extremely culturally similar and had all evolved on the same plane since they had a loose federation till napoleon fucked it up.
they were not extremely culturally similar. some of them even spoke different languages
[QUOTE=kaine123;40565326]In America, we don't have thousands of years of war and horrible ethnic fighting, etc. on our soil. So we can incorporate anybody into our big melting pot. A unified Europe would never work in the near future because of this sort of thing if you ask me.[/QUOTE] The biggest problem I see with the a united Europe is more the homogenous societies that are located in certain areas. In the US you have a lot more of a heterogenous structure which allows more laws which are enacted federally to work across the 50 states to some degree. With Europe, you would have to create laws that work for individual areas which would be extremely inefficient and time consuming. I like the idea of federalization, but I don't see it happening too quickly.
[QUOTE=kaine123;40565326]In America, we don't have thousands of years of war and horrible ethnic fighting, etc. on our soil. So we can incorporate anybody into our big melting pot. A unified Europe would never work in the near future because of this sort of thing if you ask me.[/QUOTE] Indian removal and cultural alienation, race driven slavery, racism? All black slaves, Minority districts/towns where many minorities live because even as Americans they cannot be truly equal, not to even mention the unconditional arrest and relocation of Japanese americans in WWII based purely on xenophobia- America has had plenty struggles and is nothing close to culturally homogenous although revolving around a secondary American culture, so why not Europe? The American founding fathers did not explicitly intend the federal aspect of the US to be as prevalent as it is today, or even anything close.
[QUOTE=Milkdairy;40565784]Indian removal and cultural alienation, race driven slavery, racism? All black slaves, Minority districts/towns where many minorities live because even as Americans they cannot be truly equal, not to even mention the unconditional arrest and relocation of Japanese americans in WWII based purely on xenophobia- America has had plenty struggles and is nothing close to culturally homogenous although revolving around a secondary American culture, so why not Europe? The American founding fathers did not explicitly intend the federal aspect of the US to be as prevalent as it is today, or even anything close.[/QUOTE] Not to mention that whole 4-year civil war that split the country in half because of those institutions backed by racism.
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40563039]lesswrong is a gateway drug [editline]7th May 2013[/editline] it has little [I]political[/I] freedoms - economic and personal freedoms are high. [editline]7th May 2013[/editline] 1) that law isn't enforced so it de facto does not exist. 2) are you really going to claim that jail is preferable to caning? how's that stockholm syndrome working out for you?[/QUOTE] The fact that it's still a law and hasn't been repealed yet is still a major fucking point, don't try and sweep it away like it's nothing. And seriously, "caning", "whipping" or anything of the like is cruel and unusual punishment, think about it for more than five seconds and then come back and try and justify your point. Jesus you're a pontz.
[QUOTE=thisispain;40565735]they were not extremely culturally similar. some of them even spoke different languages[/QUOTE] Unification was bloody and it was held together by force until they all developed a unified national identity and started working together for their collective interests. A federated Europe would have too many parasite countries wanting free money, kind of like the current EU.
[QUOTE=Evilan;40565756]The biggest problem I see with the a united Europe is more the homogenous societies that are located in certain areas. In the US you have a lot more of a heterogenous structure which allows more laws which are enacted federally to work across the 50 states to some degree. With Europe, you would have to create laws that work for individual areas which would be extremely inefficient and time consuming. I like the idea of federalization, but I don't see it happening too quickly.[/QUOTE] Local and "state" laws?
[QUOTE=thisispain;40565206]yeah you dont have to give a shit. its all done for you anyway. you have a political system that at the very least operates under the notion that it is for YOU. i mean the UK already gets so many perks and even gets to pick when it wants to join the eurozone, and its citizens dont even care enough to educate themselves about how the EU political system works yet they still want to complain about the eu give me a break [editline]7th May 2013[/editline] im english and i dont even know how anyone in europe can stand us[/QUOTE] People in the UK aren't vastly different in opinion from the rest of the EU, there are countries more anti-EU than we are and obviously countries more pro-EU than we are. In the UK we have the second least influence in terms of MEPs per population. You also have to be over 56 years old to have had a say in whether we are a member of the EU or not, and that isn't even entirely accurate as 38 years ago people were voting on membership to the EEC, no one voted for the EU or closer integration and I can guarantee you they won't be allowed a vote on a federal Europe. We can complain about the EU all we like, considering it is a foreign body that we are a net contributor to. So many perks like when we get to join the Eurozone? Is this a joke? Even one of the creators of the Euro is calling for it to be dismantled.
[QUOTE=butt2089;40568559]People in the UK aren't vastly different in opinion from the rest of the EU, there are countries more anti-EU than we are and obviously countries more pro-EU than we are. In the UK we have the second least influence in terms of MEPs per population. You also have to be over 56 years old to have had a say in whether we are a member of the EU or not, and that isn't even entirely accurate as 38 years ago people were voting on membership to the EEC, no one voted for the EU or closer integration and I can guarantee you they won't be allowed a vote on a federal Europe. We can complain about the EU all we like, considering it is a foreign body that we are a net contributor to. So many perks like when we get to join the Eurozone? Is this a joke? Even one of the creators of the Euro is calling for it to be dismantled.[/QUOTE] Perks like not having to join the Euro (to at least set a date for doing so like the other Euro states in the current plan, sans Denmark and Sweden), not having joined the Schengen Area, among other things. Britain is in no position to complain. And what are you seriously suggesting with regards to 'approving' the EU? Having a referendum on its existence in every state every 5, 10 years? Be reasonable here.
Czech Republic reporting, you don't want this to happen if you're in small euro country. It's Soviet union all over again.
[QUOTE=Megafan;40568681]Perks like not having to join the Euro (to at least set a date for doing so like the other Euro states in the current plan, sans Denmark and Sweden), not having joined the Schengen Area, among other things. Britain is in no position to complain. And what are you seriously suggesting with regards to 'approving' the EU? Having a referendum on its existence in every state every 5, 10 years? Be reasonable here.[/QUOTE] Not joining the Euro is not a perk, it was something that we negotiated ourselves out of, same goes for the Schengen area. Britain has a net contribution of millions of pounds a day to the EU, but because we managed to evade a crippling currency and a no passport policy we should shut up and be happy because things could be worse? Like I said, you have to be at least 56 years old to have had a say on our EU membership. Referendums aren't needed at set intervals, only when there is real change to the way the EU works, like moving from the EEC to the EU perhaps?
[QUOTE=PHrag;40568718]Czech Republic reporting, you don't want this to happen if you're in small euro country. It's Soviet union all over again.[/QUOTE] Except for the major fact that the EU is not an authoritarian command economy governed by a dictator. [QUOTE=butt2089;40568751]Not joining the Euro is not a perk, it was something that we negotiated ourselves out of, same goes for the Schengen area. Britain has a net contribution of millions of pounds a day to the EU, but because we managed to evade a crippling currency and a no passport policy we should shut up and be happy because things could be worse? Like I said, you have to be at least 56 years old to have had a say on our EU membership. Referendums aren't needed at set intervals, only when there is real change to the way the EU works, like moving from the EEC to the EU perhaps?[/QUOTE] And the rest of the EU, at least at some point, is obligated to join in so that it carries weight, but the UK had no good reason other than nationalism to negotiate out of the Schengen Area. Crippling currency? It may be having sovereign debt issues at the moment, but people are quick to forget that the EU is the largest trade bloc in the entire world, and the Euro's existence only serves to solidify that. States opting out or avoiding it because they predict weakness only begets the Euro being weak, so to a certain extent it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. And as for referendums, think of the Swiss Confederation or the United States. Was there a referendum among all Swiss people when the confederation was formed among people who to this day speak 3 different languages? Was there a referendum when my state, California, joined the union in 1850? You elect your governments to represent you (though in many cases a single person is only voting for one person in their parliament or one party that selects MEPs), what you are suggesting is impractical and deals with a matter that has undue influence from popular opinion.
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