only ugly chicks should have to cover up thats my 2 cents
I don't understand how showing your tits promotes women's rights. Just me?
I know this Asian girl who only wears her Hijab if she's having a bad hair day.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];40162787']But that's antithetical to liberation. By saying that they should want to cover to be judged "not on their appearance but on their character" is missing the point of liberation: they should be free to appear how they wish, and still be judged based on their character. They are accepting and catering to a society that judges based on appearance and simply reacting to that.[/QUOTE]They're no more accepting and catering than anyone. Frankly, they're fighting it in their own way. If society judges you based on your appearance, give them nothing to judge.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;40162424]SH is going to have an aneurysm over which side to support.[/QUOTE]
Maybe they could just not pick sides
and be happy for people's inherent freedom as living things to believe what they want to believe
[editline]5th April 2013[/editline]
that would be nice
In the end, both misogynists and *some* elements of the feminist movement fall into the same pit - They're both deciding what women should do, and what they should *not* do.
[QUOTE=NoDachi;40162424]SH is going to have an aneurysm over which side to support.[/QUOTE]
is there like a third side comprised entirely of male IT graduates or something
if so then that one
[QUOTE=archangel125;40162859]In the end, both misogynists and *some* elements of the feminist movement fall into the same pit - They're both deciding what women should do, and what they should *not* do.[/QUOTE]
did FEMEN ever say that women should be forbidden from wearing muslim garb
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;40162813]By choice, not because of state force.[/QUOTE]
Still coercion.
Femenism and general liberation theory is about freedom from state and social coercion.
Simply changing the laws does nothing if you're still forced by social rules, obligations, norms, or whathaveyou. This is somewhat like what Alexis de Tocqueville, in his French state-sanctioned book "Democracy in America", talks about. He did an in-depth study of 1830s American society, and concluded that America is both the most and the least free nation: You have legal freedom to do what you will, but society is so strict, that there is a tyranny over freedom to think. You must think as society wills you, because thinking differently sees you persecuted by society. My point is, and Tocqueville's point, is that society and social norms play just as much, if not more, of a role in your freedom than the state.
[editline]4th April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;40162832]They're no more accepting and catering than anyone. Frankly, they're fighting it in their own way. If society judges you based on your appearance, give them nothing to judge.[/QUOTE]
As opposed to working to change society, you accept its judging nature and limit yourself.
Best emancipation technique ever.
[QUOTE=archangel125;40162859]In the end, both misogynists and *some* elements of the feminist movement fall into the same pit - They're both deciding what women should do, and what they should *not* do.[/QUOTE]
We should allow women to decide for themselves.
Dress the way they like, abort babies if they choose, etc.
People who say "oh women shouldn't have sex/marry/abort/dress the way they want to, our strict moral code (praise jesus) or ideology (praise lenin)" are usually assholes.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];40162787']But that's antithetical to liberation. By saying that they should want to cover to be judged "not on their appearance but on their character" is missing the point of liberation: they should be free to appear how they wish, and still be judged based on their character. They are accepting and catering to a society that judges based on appearance and simply reacting to that.[/QUOTE]
That is a very intertesting point, haven't really thought about it like that before. I've always found the notion of wearing hijab by choice as somewhat counterproductive, this certainly touches upon the reason.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40162915]We should allow women to decide for themselves.
Dress the way they like, abort babies if they choose, etc.
People who say "oh women shouldn't have sex/marry/abort/dress the way they want to, our strict moral code (praise jesus) or ideology (praise lenin)" are usually assholes.[/QUOTE]
(abortion is just a tiny bit different and it shouldn't really be included in the same category as sex life and fashion)
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40162935](abortion is just a tiny bit different and it shouldn't really be included in the same category as sex life and fashion)[/QUOTE]
I disagree; it's your unborn child, if you don't want it then you're within your rights to do away with it
Let's not go down that path.
You know who's fault this is? MEN! (and obama, thanks!)
(some people can't take a joke)
[QUOTE=Zeke129;40162888]is there like a third side comprised entirely of male IT graduates or something
if so then that one[/QUOTE]
"Fuck this I'd rather be making something recursive."
[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;40162935](abortion is just a tiny bit different and it shouldn't really be included in the same category as sex life and fashion)[/QUOTE]
It does, however, fall into the category of something that is still within a woman's field of choice, for two reasons - One, it's her body, and two, it's not conscious or fully developed.
[QUOTE=Maloof?;40162958]I disagree; it's your unborn child, if you don't want it then you're within your rights to do away with it[/QUOTE]
It's not just her child.
[QUOTE=Antdawg;40162647]not entirely relevant but the thread reminded me of this
[img]http://thebaochi.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/cartoon.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Except the left one doesn't get stoned to death when she choses to wear more clothes than what society expects from her.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];40162962']Let's not go down that path.[/QUOTE]
We're going down this path.
[QUOTE=PowerBall v1;40163098]It's not just her child.[/QUOTE]It leeches off of her body, makes her sick, causes her pain, she has to birth it, by and large she will be the one caring for it regularly. I'd say her voice is what matters most.
i support muslim womens rights to air their opinions freely because feminism is about discourse :)
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];40163115']We're going down this path.[/QUOTE]Lets go!
[QUOTE=Killuah;40163113]Except the left one doesn't get stoned if she choses to wear more clothes than society expects from her.[/QUOTE]
Not all societies will do that. There's a large number of non-Muslim or more progressive states wherein women still wear burqas or hijabs, based on "choice".
Which brings me back to the point about social coercion.
[QUOTE=archangel125;40163004]It does, however, fall into the category of something that is still within a woman's field of choice, for two reasons - One, it's her body, and two, it's not conscious or fully developed.[/QUOTE]
(neither of those things are binary - the fetus gradually comes to have its own body, and the fetus gradually comes to have its own consciousness. this is why the date at which one is allowed to terminate a pregnancy is such a horrible thing to have to choose - because it [I]is[/I] a choice, one that is pretty much arbitrary)
I think that legal equality should be guaranteed. Equal pay, equal standing in legal cases regardless of maternal status. Equalize everything that can be equalized through law.
If women don't want to draw on their bodies and show their tits, okay, that's their right. Get legal equality between men and women, and then wait for the societal change to happen. Trying to tell anybody that what they are doing is wrong, whether it be how they dress or what religion they believe in, is not helpful. Trying to brute-force this change will not work and will only breed more and more resistance - just get the guaranteed legal equality and let society run its course.
[QUOTE=Maloof?;40162846]Maybe they could just not pick sides
and be happy for people's inherent freedom as living things to believe what they want to believe
[editline]5th April 2013[/editline]
that would be nice[/QUOTE]
But how will SH brew shitstorms then?!
[QUOTE=Killuah;40163113]Except the left one doesn't get stoned to death when she choses to wear more clothes than what society expects from her.[/QUOTE]The social backlash against women who choose to be more modest and choose not to sexualize themselves is regularly dangerous to them as well. Our culture basically says that women should be seen as sex objects, and women who choose not to fall in line with that idea are frequently stigmatized for it.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;40163147]I think that legal equality should be guaranteed. Equal pay, equal standing in legal cases regardless of maternal status. Equalize everything that can be equalized through law.
If women don't want to draw on their bodies and show their tits, okay, that's their right. Get legal equality between men and women, and then wait for the societal change to happen. Trying to tell anybody that what they are doing is wrong, whether it be how they dress or what religion they believe in, is not helpful. Trying to brute-force this change will not work and will only breed more and more resistance - just get the guaranteed legal equality and let society run its course.[/QUOTE]
see:
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];40162896']Still coercion.
Femenism and general liberation theory is about freedom from state and social coercion.
Simply changing the laws does nothing if you're still forced by social rules, obligations, norms, or whathaveyou. This is somewhat like what Alexis de Tocqueville, in his French state-sanctioned book "Democracy in America", talks about. He did an in-depth study of 1830s American society, and concluded that America is both the most and the least free nation: You have legal freedom to do what you will, but society is so strict, that there is a tyranny over freedom to think. You must think as society wills you, because thinking differently sees you persecuted by society. My point is, and Tocqueville's point, is that society and social norms play just as much, if not more, of a role in your freedom than the state.
[/QUOTE]
-snip-
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