[QUOTE=Riutet;40163680]I agree with that, just because you have the potential to help someone, that doesn't mean you have the duty to. But imagine if you were the person who put them in the situation where they needed a transfusion and assume hypothetically that there is no alternative donor, wouldn't you agree that you have a duty to them?
[/QUOTE]
I think that's the one difference in the situation and a perfectly valid rebuttal to what I said. I'd definitely agree that abortion is [i]undesirable[/i] and that if you have a kid you need to provide for them, but even society's views on that aren't as concrete as they seem. Once your kid turns 18, you no longer have any responsibility to them in any way anymore, and very few people seem to think you [i]should[/i]. So you can't really say that putting someone in the situation of existing means you're beholden to them, as that's not really how it currently works anyway. You're beholden to them from 0-18, but not before or after.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40163839]doesnt matter if you choose to wear the hijab and the burka and all that, it's still a misogynistic garb and people WANTING to wear it just shows how ingrained the misogyny is in their culture[/QUOTE]
this just in: "all cultures other than ours are barbaric and misogynistic"
[QUOTE]but would you not agree that if you create the situation you have a responsibility to ensure the safety of another person when you caused the situation that said person is now set to encounter?[/QUOTE]
This only really works if you have a certain moral background to begin with. While I agree with this (due to my own moral background) I'm pretty sure some people would disagree with this.
Also, how did you get this person in such situation? was it on purpose? by accident?
[QUOTE=Zeke129;40163902]Once your kid turns 18, you no longer have any responsibility to them in any way anymore, and very few people seem to think you [i]should[/i].[/quote]
Once they have reached an age of maturity they possess the potential at least to make their own way, an unborn baby does not, a nine month old baby does not, and you could make a reasonable argument that even a four year old does not. 18 is the generalised cut off age because that is usually when schooling ends and a person has almost reached a state of adulthood.
[quote]So you can't really say that putting someone in the situation of existing means you're beholden to them, as that's not really how it currently works anyway.[/QUOTE]
Another analogy, let's imagine that you shoot someone out in the woods while you are hunting, you've got minor medical training and you you're fairly isolated so you take them back to your place, remove the bullet if it didn't go clean through, disinfect the wound and so on, the details are not important, you treat them and ensure that they don't die as a result of your actions. Let's just assume that you don't take them back into town to a hospital and just keep them with you until they're good enough to get back on with their life.
Your action was shooting the person, your solution was healing said person, now that said person is healed do you have any obligation to care for them? I do not think so.
This situation does not directly translate over to childcare but the same idea is there, you have put that person in a situation where without care they will not survive, you should care for them for as long as it takes for them to no longer need care. With a child, that is until the age of about 18, although the actual age where they no longer technically need your care is much lower.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40163861]What if they want to wear it, even if they leave the country and go to someplace that allows them to do what they want?[/QUOTE]
yeah sure they can but they can't act like that somehow disproves feminist movements 'oh some of us actually quite like covering every inch of our body'
[QUOTE=KingArcher;40163916]this just in: "all cultures other than ours are barbaric and misogynistic"[/QUOTE]
do you even know the cultural history associated with the hijab/burka or are you just trying to get zingers
[QUOTE=KingArcher;40163916]this just in: "all cultures other than ours are barbaric and misogynistic"[/QUOTE]
we're talking about a garment that requires you to completely cover your body except face (eyes in extreme cases)
[QUOTE=KingArcher;40163916]this just in: "all cultures other than ours are barbaric and misogynistic"[/QUOTE]
I see your point, but the burkha has an unpleasant past, and to an extent - present.
[editline]5th April 2013[/editline]
actually not to an extent, its still unpleasant
[QUOTE=PowerBall v1;40163098]It's not just her child.[/QUOTE]
Sorry I didn't mean it like that. My intention wasn't to say 'the man should have no say in the matter'
I meant that the government shouldn't be able to tell a woman she's not allowed to get an abortion. If the couple decide to abort, they should have every right to do so. Obviously it can't just be the mother or father dictating what happens.
Nobody outside of that immediate relationship between man woman and unborn child should be trying to say how they should conduct their affairs, is what I mean.
[QUOTE=barttool;40163978]This only really works if you have a certain moral background to begin with. While I agree with this (due to my own moral background) I'm pretty sure some people would disagree with this.[/quote]
There are so many varied moral frameworks you can adopt, that you could say that to anything and be right every time. I don't claim the moral framework by which I reasoned this outcome is any more right or wrong than any other one, it is just one I chose for the purpose of discussion.
[quote]Also, how did you get this person in such situation? was it on purpose? by accident?[/QUOTE]
It can change depending on whether it was intentional or unintentional. If a genuine accident (as in a muscle spasm or something along those lines) you have no obligation to help but I personally would feel guilty for not, if negligence then you absolutely should, if it was intentional then you should help him but if you achieved the outcome you wanted why would you? Other people would be justified in making you help him.
[QUOTE=Riutet;40164282]if it was intentional then you should help him but if you achieved the outcome you wanted why would you? Other people would be justified in making you help him.[/QUOTE]
I was gonna say this but in the case of child birthing a woman may have initially wanted to have a child but after getting pregnant regretted it. It is a possibility.
[QUOTE=KingArcher;40163916]this just in: "all cultures other than ours are barbaric and misogynistic"[/QUOTE]
snippy snoo
[QUOTE=Maloof?;40164252]Nobody outside of that immediate relationship between man woman and unborn child should be trying to say how they should conduct their affairs, is what I mean.[/QUOTE]
There is a point where the life of an individual is being infringed upon by others, where does the individual begin? Upon delivery or upon developing a functioning consciousness? If you think the latter then you are probably pro choice up until a certain point in development, if so then you should revise you statement because the act of birth does not suddenly transform an a mass of differentiated cells into a conscious being.
[QUOTE=Judas;40162609]it's still true[/QUOTE]
Yeaa women who don't want to flash their tits are brainwashed, sure keep thinking like that mr. ignorant
Muslim women that agrue for covering themselves feels that it stop all of society's judgement on their bodies that pressure women today.
It shouldn't be banned(why france is dumb and islamophobic) and it shouldn't be forced to be covering(why the middle east is dumb and oppressives)
[QUOTE=The golden;40164383]It's called basic human compassion. I fail to see how any right-minded person can look at how women are treated in those cultures and call that acceptable.[/QUOTE]
I'm not calling it acceptable; I'm saying that the change should come from within rather than western nations (mainly the US) busting in and changing shit to further their own needs, which frankly seems to be the general way of things recently
[QUOTE=Maloof?;40164357]But in seriousness, I don't get why many Westerners feel the need to try to impose moral standards on other nations. 'We are bringing you democracy', 'we are the moral benchmark', etc. Fuck off; they'll get to democracy if that's where they're going. Most of the time I feel it's best to give them space to work out their own issues in their own way.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I guess crimes, oppression, and atrocities in other nations are okay as long as they're legal in that country.
I'll go back in time and give Imperial Japan a call, give them the green light to just blow up China. Hey, maybe Israel could finally wipe the West Bank off the map. Who are we to judge?
[QUOTE=Megafan;40164416]Yeah, I guess crimes, oppression, and atrocities in other nations are okay as long as they're legal in that country.
I'll go back in time and give Imperial Japan a call, give them the green light to just blow up China. Hey, maybe Israel could finally wipe the West Bank off the map. Who are we to judge?[/QUOTE]
Shit, I worded my comment really badly
I didn't mean that it would be fine to let mass executions and all the rest of that shit happen overseas just because we're not part of that culture
[QUOTE=barttool;40164352]I was gonna say this but in the case of child birthing a woman may have initially wanted to have a child but after getting pregnant regretted it. It is a possibility.[/QUOTE]
You can abort a fetus legally up to a certain point, if you do it before it develops a consciousness you have avoided creating an individual of whom you can wrong, if you wait long enough in development that it has become a functioning human being that just needs some finishing touches, you could easily argue that to abort at that point regardless of whether your intent was one way initially and now another, is negligent, an infringement upon another human being who is only in the situation he is in now as a result of your actions.
Anyway, this thread is not about abortion. I only just remembered.
I mean obviously there's a line between cultural differences and gross atrocities
Apologies if that all came out wrong, I will draft my posts more carefully next time
Edit: automerge
[QUOTE=Maloof?;40164441]Shit, I worded my comment really badly
I didn't mean that it would be fine to let mass executions and all the rest of that shit happen overseas just because we're not part of that culture[/QUOTE]
I understand you didn't mean that, but moral relativism like that even on a smaller scale ultimately falls down because you become unable to judge any kind of transgression in a society that is not yours.
If morals are dependent on culture, how can you judge murder of innocent people to be wrong, or assault, or discrimination on the basis of race or gender on any kind of moral level?
I'm a former muslim, been to muslim countries, france, spain and know quite a bit about islam. I see alot of ignorance and misunderstood folks here.
[QUOTE=Megafan;40164472]I understand you didn't mean that, but moral relativism like that even on a smaller scale ultimately falls down because you become unable to judge any kind of transgression in a society that is not yours.
If morals are dependent on culture, how can you judge murder of innocent people to be wrong, or assault, or discrimination on the basis of race or gender on any kind of moral level?[/QUOTE]
I think about this sort of thing a lot but I'm still not sure how to answer this one
I mean any culture, even the broad and globalised 'western' culture, looked at by another is going to seem wrong in a bunch of ways. I dunno how one could possibly reconcile all those differences in a way that pleases everybody in terms of morality
[editline]5th April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Iago;40164527]I'm a former muslim, been to muslim countries, france, spain and know quite a bit about islam. I see alot of ignorance and misunderstood folks here.[/QUOTE]
I think this is probably the most understanding and accepting discussion of nonwestern gender issues I've seen on FP
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;40162915]We should allow women to decide for themselves.
[/QUOTE]
Who's "we"? There's no deciding factor when it comes to equatable human rights, you have them from birth.
Anything less that total unbiased equality between men and women is absolutely absurd, and any infringement upon said rights should simply be bypassed or ignored by any woman who finds feels her equatable rights are being infringed upon.
[quote]But in seriousness, I don't get why many Westerners feel the need to try to impose moral standards on other nations. 'We are bringing you democracy', 'we are the moral benchmark', etc. Fuck off; they'll get to democracy if that's where they're going. Most of the time I feel it's best to give them space to work out their own issues in their own way.[/quote]
I am of the opinion that there is no objective morality and that you have complete moral freedom, you create morality which is a code of conduct that determines what you can and cannot do and then you agree to yourself to be bound by it, and a society is a collection of people who agree to each other to be bound by a collective set of rules both moral and legal. I believe that to exist in a particular society you must agree to follow the moral code by which it governs itself, some morality is essential to the society (ideas about murder for example), some is left down to the individual. I don't think it's possible to judge the morality of another society by your own, because I don't think there can be objective morality. Therefore in my interpretation the only way in which you can violate someone morally is to impose upon them without an alternative to opt out and leave, morality which is in itself not objective. I would feel inclined to help anyone who found themselves in this situation.
I would not ask any other society to dismantle themselves because their sense of morality offends mine, merely that they make free the people who do not wish to be subject to their morality, mentally and physically. If they did not do this I would consider them tyrannical and want to see them dismantled.
To actually give an opinion on the topic of this thread, I think it's tyrannical to expect a woman to wear a veil when she does not want to, and to wear nothing when she does not want to. Freedom is being able to choose either when neither causes harm. Freedom is also having access to as many different opinions and as much information as is possible to ensure that you cannot be railroaded to a particular way of being by having information withheld from you.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];40162596']Perhaps you're right, but just because it's offensive doesn't mean it's not true.
I'll still edit my post though, to reflect that I made an assumption that is probably overstepping the line.[/QUOTE]
"Because someone doesn't agree with my ideas of society, they're brainwashed."
-you
[QUOTE=Zeke129;40163262]Even if a person believes that a fetus is 100% a person there's really no reason to be against abortion. At no point is anyone required to save the life of another person - if you have the blood type that'll save someone you don't have to give it up if you don't want to. Hell, your [i]corpse[/i] isn't forced to give anything up. Your heart that could save a life is going to go into an incinerator if you didn't sign a piece of paper ahead of time saying they could use it.
So basically if you force women to carry their fetuses to term you end up with a situation where dead people are afforded more personal autonomy than living women[/QUOTE]
yo not that i disagree with you about abortion but i think this specific argument is flawed. parents are obligated to save their children's lives. if they let their child die then it's considered neglect.
I'm just going to say that I find girls wearing full clothes can be just as hot as girls in underwear, depending on what theyre wearing. And Now I'm going to leave.
[QUOTE=OrionChronicles;40164888]I'm just going to say that I find girls wearing full clothes can be just as hot as girls in underwear, depending on what theyre wearing. And Now I'm going to leave.[/QUOTE]
how is 'hotness' related to any of the stuff this article mentions/what we're discussing? Why post that here?
[QUOTE=OrionChronicles;40164888]I'm just going to say that I find girls wearing full clothes can be just as hot as girls in underwear, depending on what theyre wearing. And Now I'm going to leave.[/QUOTE]
you look at a lot of porn don't you
I mean you can't honestly tell me that you're so regularly exposed to scantily clad women in real life that you'd actually be more titillated by the sight of a clothed woman than an unclothed one
[QUOTE=draugur;40164752]"Because someone doesn't agree with my ideas of society, they're brainwashed."
-you[/QUOTE]
"i'm going to ignore the second half of that post, which I quoted, and the follow up to that post, in which the guy admits that he was wrong."
-you
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