[QUOTE=tr00per7;40169120]Yes, I said in an earlier post that most muslim women are forced into it.
But you didnt sound like you were proposing any sought of solution, just ban the burqa and ignore the fact that there would still be father-male dominated muslim familys and couples going on so not much change would happen.[/QUOTE]
i've never said anything about banning the burka? i've just been speaking out against people acting like the burka isn't inherently misogynistic. the only solution i can really think of is time, education and secularization, just like it was the solution here in the west (not that we've fully solved the effects of hardline religious influence over society just yet)
[editline]6th April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=lapsus_;40169125]Great understanding of culture, mon.
They DO know what is the norm in this side of the world, some just aren't bothered by the fact that they have to wear abaya + niquab in public places. Some even feel safe with it. Some think 'it's okay because of my religion', and not 'not ok because of patriarchal society'. Ever heard of arab women in our side of the world refusing to follow our dress code?
You know, in this side of the world our culture,religion and institutions make us think 'wow poor women forced to wear that thing, they are oppressed and cry 24/7 because of this.' While the reality is some (I know a sample of 1 isn't convincing, but face they exist) doesn't mind at all. There are way worse problems women have in there anyway.
The picture was because last time I said about a dialogue of mine with a girl from palestine people called bullshit.[/QUOTE]
culture doesn't mean a thing to me. did you know it's a cultural thing to kidnap your bride in kyrgyztan? does that stop it from being awful and misogynistic? nope. and again, for them it is the norm because they were raised to think it's wrong to not wear the burka that it's wrong to disobey their family that it's wrong to go against their religion, so of course all that pressure culminates in them thinking its normal to wear the stupid thing so of course they want to, just like how back in the old days western women WANTED to wear those stupid dresses that covered them head to toe practically
[QUOTE=NoDachi;40162424]SH is going to have an aneurysm over which side to support.[/QUOTE]
I dunno about you, but it's a pretty easy decision for me.
Both sides are dumb so I don't support either.
[QUOTE=elowin;40169277]I dunno about you, but it's a pretty easy decision for me.
Both sides are dumb so I don't support either.[/QUOTE]
the only side i support is sephiroth
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40169138]
culture doesn't mean a thing to me. did you know it's a cultural thing to kidnap your bride in kyrgyztan? does that stop it from being awful and misogynistic? nope. and again, for them it is the norm because they were raised to think it's wrong to not wear the burka that it's wrong to disobey their family that it's wrong to go against their religion, so of course all that pressure culminates in them thinking its normal to wear the stupid thing so of course they want to, just like how back in the old days western women WANTED to wear those stupid dresses that covered them head to toe practically[/QUOTE]
I see your point. You're speaking in terms of ethics, I'm speaking in terms of cultural legitimacy. And as I beleive it's not for us to decide what is morally right in another culture, you do beleive it is, thus we'll never get along.
I'll just tell you this and then I'll be gone: to some, our 'liberation' seems like a mean of oppression, even if ethically it's the best thing and the most respectful of human rights. Don't know how to word it better than this.
[QUOTE=lapsus_;40169410]I see your point. You're speaking in terms of ethics, I'm speaking in terms of cultural legitimacy. And as I beleive it's not for us to decide what is morally right in another culture, you do beleive it is, thus we'll never get along.
I'll just tell you this and then I'll be gone: to some, our 'liberation' seems like a mean of oppression, even if ethically it's the best thing and the most respectful of human rights. Don't know how to word it better than this.[/QUOTE]
well i value the individuals liberty above the liberty of a culture
Anyone got pic-
one muslim girl at my school was wearing a burqa and i almost tripped on it and i felt so bad
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;40169138] just like how back in the old days western women WANTED to wear those stupid dresses that covered them head to toe practically[/QUOTE]
I was just thinking that this sounds like exactly how those polygamists in Utah would react
Oh wow, a group for white middle class women that is disconnected from the world of those who don't fit into the archetype? My, my, what a surprise!
[QUOTE=lapsus_;40169410]I see your point. You're speaking in terms of ethics, I'm speaking in terms of cultural legitimacy. And as I beleive it's not for us to decide what is morally right in another culture, you do beleive it is, thus we'll never get along.[/QUOTE]
As I said, this line of thinking almost immediately falls down when applied to anything else. What if a culture deems it appropriate to kill someone for wearing a certain type of clothing? For being a certain race? What if it's just legal discrimination? Are we in the West 'not allowed' to criticize these things just because their government or some of their people agree with them?
[QUOTE=Megafan;40175778]As I said, this line of thinking almost immediately falls down when applied to anything else. What if a culture deems it appropriate to kill someone for wearing a certain type of clothing? For being a certain race? What if it's just legal discrimination? Are we in the West 'not allowed' to criticize these things just because their government or some of their people agree with them?[/QUOTE]
This whole "can't criticise culture" bullshit is nothing except a remnant of anti colonial sentiment.
Of course you can fucking criticize a culture. If you can criticize your own culture, you can sure as shit criticize someone else's.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];40162896']Still coercion.
Femenism and general liberation theory is about freedom from state and social coercion.
Simply changing the laws does nothing if you're still forced by social rules, obligations, norms, or whathaveyou. This is somewhat like what Alexis de Tocqueville, in his French state-sanctioned book "Democracy in America", talks about. He did an in-depth study of 1830s American society, and concluded that America is both the most and the least free nation: You have legal freedom to do what you will, but society is so strict, that there is a tyranny over freedom to think. You must think as society wills you, because thinking differently sees you persecuted by society. My point is, and Tocqueville's point, is that society and social norms play just as much, if not more, of a role in your freedom than the state.
[editline]4th April 2013[/editline]
As opposed to working to change society, you accept its judging nature and limit yourself.
Best emancipation technique ever.[/QUOTE]
Hear Hear! This man knows what's going on.
[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;40162722]There are plenty of Muslim women around the world who wear hijabs and similar garments because, to them, it is empowering and means that people have to judge them not on their appearance but on their character. There are even some that do it for the same reason who are not Muslim.[/QUOTE]
This is literally what people used to say about ankle-length skirts and corsets. You know that corsets weren't designed as a fashion object, right? The whole point of them was to compress your ribcage to a hilarious degree. It was the European version of binding women's feet in Asia. Hijabs and burqas and other such garments are the same thing. Frankly, I don't give [I]a single shit[/I] whether anyone who wears one likes it. I'm sure there are people in backwater towns without enough food in places like North Korea and Africa enjoy their life. That doesn't mean I enjoy that they have a life like that. That doesn't mean it's 'ok' because they enjoy literal oppression. Saying that 'its a different culture' is just wishywashy bullshit, and it's why we didn't put Japanese war leaders to death for torturing and killing American PoWs, but we did do that to the Nazi leaders.
[editline]5th April 2013[/editline]
I mean Jesus this handwave you put down is so fucking racist in the extreme that I can't even comprehend how much I hate you for it.
It's wrong to tell them not to wear a burka, Femen seems to be doing this to some degree; It's totally fine to say they should be allowed not to wear a burka.
[QUOTE=DarkendSky;40179344]This is literally what people used to say about ankle-length skirts and corsets. You know that corsets weren't designed as a fashion object, right? The whole point of them was to compress your ribcage to a hilarious degree. It was the European version of binding women's feet in Asia. Hijabs and burqas and other such garments are the same thing. Frankly, I don't give [I]a single shit[/I] whether anyone who wears one likes it. I'm sure there are people in backwater towns without enough food in places like North Korea and Africa enjoy their life. That doesn't mean I enjoy that they have a life like that. That doesn't mean it's 'ok' because they enjoy literal oppression. Saying that 'its a different culture' is just wishywashy bullshit, and it's why we didn't put Japanese war leaders to death for torturing and killing American PoWs, but we did do that to the Nazi leaders.
[editline]5th April 2013[/editline]
I mean Jesus this handwave you put down is so fucking racist in the extreme that I can't even comprehend how much I hate you for it.[/QUOTE]Literally none of that made sense. How is it racist? The fuck does that even have to do with anything? I don't think you have any clue what I said, what you're talking about, or what you were even saying.
seems like the muslims in question are both misunderstanding what femen is trying to accomplish and beyond that have likely never been in a position where they have not had the choice to wear or not to wear their religious garb, ie when they say "this is against women who choose to or not to wear it" they forget there are many people who do not have that choice presented to them at all
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