Getting literacy rate from 10% to 88% in about 40 years, having less people in jail than the USA, lowest infant mortality and highest life expectancy is an outstanding feat.
Yet some people think that their country is better than Libya.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31050735]Getting literacy rate from 10% to 88% in about 40 years, having less people in jail than the USA, lowest infant mortality and highest life expectancy is an outstanding feat.
Yet some people think that their country is better than Libya.[/QUOTE]
Peoples' rights pretty much trumps the development and improvement of a country.
Look at the Revolutionary War in America. Colonists had a higher standard of living than those of Britain, once Britain started to impose shitty laws on the colonists they started to take up arms against a world superpower.
Look at the American Civil War. The South had it been it's own country could have been one of the most wealthiest nations in the world in the 19th century. Their 'rights' as states were being violated so they argued and then they started to take up arms and divided the U.S. into one of the most bloodiest wars in history.
Just because Libya has been one of the most progressive countries, autocracies and totalitarian regimes are bound to have this happen when you keep on stomping the boot on them or you've kept them silent for too long.
[QUOTE=Sottalytober;31032537]Please don't tell me you just said what the marines did to the Japanese...More like what the Japanese did to the marines.
Anyway, they have a long way to go. Curious that nobodies sent ground troops to help.[/QUOTE]
So uh what did the Americans do with any Japanese who lived in their country again?
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31050947]Peoples' rights pretty much trumps the development and improvement of a country.
[/QUOTE]
I would rather have a full belly, a roof over my head and clothes on my back without being able to vote than to live in a dirt shack, afflicted with tyhpus and being able to vote.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31051094]I would rather have a full belly, a roof over my head and clothes on my back without being able to vote than to live in a dirt shack, afflicted with tyhpus and being able to vote.[/QUOTE]
Have fun being at the mercy of the government then.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31051141]Have fun being at the mercy of the government then.[/QUOTE]
Don't lie. You would choose a life that is perfect in every way minus that a government form other than a democracy exists rather than a life which is shit in every way minus that a democracy exists.
Democracies just make people squabble and waste time instead of actually solving problems, even then you still get influential people who get what they want if they have money or land.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31051208]Don't lie. You would choose a life that is perfect in every way minus that a government form other than a democracy exists rather than a life which is shit in every way minus that a democracy exists.
Democracies just make people squabble and waste time instead of actually solving problems, even then you still get influential people who get what they want if they have money or land.[/QUOTE]
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31051208]Don't lie. You would choose a life that is perfect in every way minus that a government form other than a democracy exists rather than a life which is shit in every way minus that a democracy exists.
Democracies just make people squabble and waste time instead of actually solving problems, even then you still get influential people who get what they want if they have money or land.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, look at all of the totalitarian regimes in the past that got so much shit done.
Mao Zedong industrialized China, he 're-educated' everybody that was smarter than him, which numbered in the millions.
Stalin industrialized Russia in the wake of a famine, he 're-educated' everybody that was smarter than him, which numbered in the millions. Not to mention he started a transition process to Communism in the midst of a famine.
Adolf Hitler militarized Germany and established one of the most sophisticated infrastructures in the world; fucked over countless minorities in the process.
Saddam Hussein's regime held an iron grip over the entirety of Iraq which subdued ethic divisions between Sunni's and Shia's. [b]He fucking gassed Kurds and minorities just for shits and giggles[/b]. Not to mention that he waged a territorial land grab against Iran which resulted in plummeting his country's economy to the shitter.
Kim Il-sung saw to the North's independence and developed one of the strongest militaries in the world for it's defense from aggressors. He pretty much did what every best dictator does, kill off anyone that's smarter than he is.
Yeah, seeing what Totalitarian regimes do, I'd rather fucking die than to live in a government in where the tyrannies of the majority or the tyrannies of the minority exist in full force. A developed democracy mediates these things and keeps both sides in check from going batshit. I mean you can still argue that totalitarian regimes solve problems. What if the regime sees you as the problem?
[QUOTE=The Epidemic;31051071]So uh what did the Americans do with any Japanese who lived in their country again?[/QUOTE]
Well, we /didn't/ send them on death marches, conduct horrible experiments on them, or use them as unarmed practice targets.
Man, I had no idea what sort of a shitstorm I had started by posting this article :v:
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;31051373]Yeah, look at all of the totalitarian regimes in the past that got so much shit done.
Mao Zedong industrialized China, he 're-educated' everybody that was smarter than him, which numbered in the millions.
Stalin industrialized Russia in the wake of a famine, he 're-educated' everybody that was smarter than him, which numbered in the millions. Not to mention he started a transition process to Communism in the midst of a famine.
Adolf Hitler militarized Germany and established one of the most sophisticated infrastructures in the world; fucked over countless minorities in the process.
Saddam Hussein's regime held an iron grip over the entirety of Iraq which subdued ethic divisions between Sunni's and Shia's. [b]He fucking gassed Kurds and minorities just for shits and giggles[/b]. Not to mention that he waged a territorial land grab against Iran which resulted in plummeting his country's economy to the shitter.
Kim Il-sung saw to the North's independence and developed one of the strongest militaries in the world for it's defense from aggressors. He pretty much did what every best dictator does, kill off anyone that's smarter than he is.
Yeah, seeing what Totalitarian regimes do, I'd rather fucking die than to live in a government in where the tyrannies of the majority or the tyrannies of the minority exist in full force. A developed democracy mediates these things and keeps both sides in check from going batshit. I mean you can still argue that totalitarian regimes solve problems. What if the regime sees you as the problem?[/QUOTE]
You didn't tell me which you preferred.
I would much rather live a good life under a dictator than to be a poor man with no bread in a democracy. What is the point of voting if I will still continue to starve?
[QUOTE=ewitwins;31051305]"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin[/QUOTE]
Is it essential? Whom defined that it was essential? Why? Is the safety temporal? Perhaps instead it is actually permanent? A man who gives up his right to vote in order to get food for his family should not be judged so harshly. If a man has a choice between food to feed himself and his children and to have the right to vote which shall he choose? Do you see that voting for a bunch of parties, the changes made by which could be detrimental to you is less appealing than to simply having a single entity in charge that promises him food, and will deliver?
It looks like the Libyans have already made their choice.
[QUOTE=ewitwins;31051305]"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin[/QUOTE]
Look at me I can throw around quotes to make myself look smart too
"Democracy passes into despotism."
-Plato
[QUOTE=AnEvilGuy;31051443]Well, we /didn't/ send them on death marches, conduct horrible experiments on them, or use them as unarmed practice targets.[/QUOTE]
Japanese-Americans did all of these things while living in America? No.
I like how you're using this to somehow justify war crimes committed against the Japanese-Americans and Japanese soldiers. It's not as bad as what the Japanese did but marines killed pretty much every prisoner they came across, and while Japanese reluctance to surrender had a big impact, so did this. They also robbed teeth, skulls, fingers, ears, etc. from corpses and raped and murdered civilians on Okinawa.
Not as bad but still fucked up
We are the good side because our side murdered and tortured less people than they did.
We also won the war.
And wrote the history books.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31055437]We are the good side because our side murdered and tortured less people than they did.
We also won the war.
And wrote the history books.[/QUOTE]
Good side? No. Better side? Yes.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31055437]
And wrote the history books.[/QUOTE]
Bingo.
I do hope that the rebels get more support from Nato and win this. The more north african democracies (assuming that no dictator appears) that exists the better. Besides, it's not that bad if the new Libya happens to like Nato too.
[QUOTE=Marcolade;31055082]Look at me I can throw around quotes to make myself look smart too
"Democracy passes into despotism."
-Plato[/QUOTE]
What the fuck? Not trying to make myself look smart, just posting a relevant quote v:v:v
but okay
[QUOTE=Kalleo;31055784]Bingo.
I do hope that the rebels get more support from Nato and win this. The more north african democracies (assuming that no dictator appears) that exists the better. Besides, it's not that bad if the new Libya happens to like Nato too.[/QUOTE]
The only way it will be better is that if the Libyans enjoy higher standards of living than before the revolution.
It's sad because it turned from protecting civilians to attacking royals.
Even sadder that if Rebels win, Libya will probably turn into shithole and US will just take oil from it.
Oh and you guys do know that Al qaeda members are within rebels, right?
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;31056198]Oh and you guys do know that Al qaeda members are within rebels, right?[/QUOTE]
You know it was Gaddafi who said that, right?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31056180]The only way it will be better is that if the Libyans enjoy higher standards of living than before the revolution.[/QUOTE]
Which brings us back to dictatorship with decent life vs democracy with (potentially) harsh life. Oh well, we'll see what happens soon enough.
But it wasn't decent, I could openly say it was amazing life, better than the most countries.
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;31056848]But it wasn't decent, I could openly say it was amazing life, better than the most countries.[/QUOTE]
True, though I was referring to the discussion above. Decent might have been a poor choice of word.
But still, why risk your life in a revolution if you live a good life?
[QUOTE=RBM11;31055368]Japanese-Americans did all of these things while living in America? No.
I like how you're using this to somehow justify war crimes committed against the Japanese-Americans and Japanese soldiers. It's not as bad as what the Japanese did but marines killed pretty much every prisoner they came across, and while Japanese reluctance to surrender had a big impact, so did this. They also robbed teeth, skulls, fingers, ears, etc. from corpses and raped and murdered civilians on Okinawa.
Not as bad but still fucked up[/QUOTE]
What, specifically, was done to Japanese POWs? Please provide me with some instances.
[editline]11th July 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Spirit_Breaker;31056198]It's sad because it turned from protecting civilians to attacking royals.
Even sadder that if Rebels win, Libya will probably turn into shithole and US will just take oil from it.
Oh and you guys do know that Al qaeda members are within rebels, right?[/QUOTE]
Go fuck yourself. Honestly. The US has no dogs in this war. Europe, on the other hand, does. It's about oil for France and other European countries. Quit using the US as your goddamned punching bag for everything wrong with the world. If you really are Serbian, you know that the US is not the only country to ever do anything wrong.
Fuck yes Libyan Rebels.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;31050735]Getting literacy rate from 10% to 88% in about 40 years, having less people in jail than the USA, lowest infant mortality and highest life expectancy is an outstanding feat.
Yet some people think that their country is better than Libya.[/QUOTE]
All these things mean jack shit when the people don't have the rights they deserve.
Good to see that Qadaffi is getting fucked, hopefully the rebels will instate a good government when they take power.
[QUOTE=Earthen;31075651]All these things mean jack shit when the people don't have the rights they deserve.[/QUOTE]
So you are saying you would prefer the the privilege to vote, and end up with a nation that does not get anywhere and you are dirt poor and without medical care, than rather to be well fed and happy and given the medical attention you need.
Look at Cuba and the USA. The former has a dictator but it has a much better healthcare service than the latter, the main reason Cuba isn't doing as well as it should is because the USA is embargoing it due to butthurt.
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