Blueprints on the steam store? A bad idea or the Baddest idea? - Rust

[QUOTE=intrepidenigm;46316755]I understand the difference. I already explained the difference. Scroll up to read it... I'll say it again, if something satisfies you, you are satisfied. That is the difference. Rust satisfies me. In turn, I am satisfied with Rust. Do you get it yet?[/QUOTE] Not if you have to leave rust to acquire a print for use in the game. You are no longer satisfied with rust so you vist an outside agency despite Rust bringing you some level of satisfaction while you did play it...get it yet? "ed" indicates an end to what ever need, want or desire. YOU CAN NOT BE SATISFIED AND WANT, NEED OR DESIRE SOMETHING ELSE. It's the entire reason to add "ed' at the end of satisfy.

[QUOTE=billy79;46316634]the context between satisfying and satified to mean the same thing, and its not.[/QUOTE] What the hell is this semantic argument supposed to be? ing words are present tense, and ed are past tense. you are really arguing over the TENSE of a word? REALLY?! They are both states of satisfaction. Your argument is so weak... It's like watching Clinton argue the definition of "is". [QUOTE]YOU CAN NOT BE SATISFIED AND WANT, NEED OR DESIRE SOMETHING ELSE[/QUOTE] So I can't eat cake then have sex with my wife?

[QUOTE=utilitron;46316827]What the hell is this semantic argument supposed to be? ing words are present tense, and ed are past tense. you are really arguing over the TENSE of a word? REALLY?! They are both states of satisfaction. Your argument is so weak... It's like watching Clinton argue the definition of "is". So I can't eat cake then have sex with my wife?[/QUOTE] When someone says they are satisfied and still want something, they are no longer satisfied. This is an indisputable fact. No amount of stupidty will change this. No amount of explaining will change this. The semantic argument started when someone said I did not know the meaning of a word and that same person tried to shift the goal post "satisfy" which has a different context than satisfied, the word he accused me of not know the meaning too. I think you are pretty stupid if you do not understand that. [QUOTE]So I can't eat cake then have sex with my wife? [/QUOTE] What? If you eat cake and want sex and dont get it, your not satisfied despite the cake bringing you satisfaction. Now please ask who ever the hell sent you to school to get their money back.

[QUOTE=billy79;46316846]When someone says they are satisfied and still want something, they are no longer satisfied. This is an indisputable fact.[/QUOTE] That's not an indisputable fact... You just made it up... You're still trying to use one definition of satisfied when there are others... I'm not sure what else to say to you.

[QUOTE=intrepidenigm;46316864]That's not an indisputable fact... You just made it up... You're still trying to use one definition of satisfied when there are others...[/QUOTE] I've linked several reptutable defintions and you now want to pretend I've made it up? [QUOTE=intrepidenigm;46316864]I'm not sure what else to say to you.[/QUOTE] That I'm right and you've acted like a disingenious blow hard?

Seriously guys you're arguing about the interpretation of a word! How productive has your day been?

[QUOTE=billy79;46316889]I've linked several reptutable defintions and you now want to pretend I've made it up?[/QUOTE] I'm not sure how reputable they actually are, but regardless, you cherry picked one definition to use instead of considering all of the possible definitions as I have. You did make this up: "When someone says they are satisfied and still want something, they are no longer satisfied." That is all you, and it isn't necessarily true. You should have mercy on yourself and admit defeat before you come up with more foolishness.

this is rolling down the steep decline into name-calling and "no you are" statements. everyone take a deep breath and let's get back to the topic at hand. [B]is trading of custom blueprints a good idea? is it ok to use the external (steam) marketplace, or should it be in game somehow? are jigged stats alright?[/B]

@intrepidenigm I'm no longer at work, consequently no longer satisfied discussing this with you, so I'm going to find something else to do although I did great satisfaction pointing out the flaws in your argument. Does this mean I'm satisfied since I got satisfaction out it? [editline]23rd October 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Mattly;46316922]Seriously guys you're arguing about the interpretation of a word! How productive has your day been?[/QUOTE] Made my day go by quick, thank you very much. :dance:

[QUOTE=billy79;46317044]I'm no longer at work, consequently no longer satisfied discussing this with you, so I'm going to find something else to do although I did great satisfaction pointing out the flaws in your argument. Does this mean I'm satisfied since I got satisfaction out it?[/QUOTE] You could be not satisfied with respect to the first aspect you mentioned, as in, you are not satisfied because the discussion is no longer making you happy (that is one of the definitions, as I've pointed out in several posts). You could also be satisfied with the fact that you think you pointed out flaws in my argument. Those things can both be true. If you want to determine in some meta way whether you are satisfied overall, you'd have to weigh those two things, among many others and see how it turns out. I really wish you would actually complete your sentences; that would make your posts more tolerable.

[QUOTE=intrepidenigm;46317103]You could be not satisfied with respect to the first aspect you mentioned, as in, you are not satisfied because the discussion is no longer making you happy (that is one of the definitions, as I've pointed out in several posts). You could also be satisfied with the fact that you think you pointed out flaws in my argument. Those things can both be true. If you want to determine in some meta way whether you are satisfied overall, you'd have to weigh those two things, among many others and see how it turns out. I really wish you would actually complete your sentences; that would make your posts more tolerable.[/QUOTE] I really wish you'd stop equivocating the context and meaning of satisfying and satisfied. .

[QUOTE=SCE_CJs;46316374]Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last I heard there will not be a store to buy blueprints for a base price. The submitted content will be managed by Facepunch and included in the game. The only way to get the global blueprints are from Rust playtime/objectives or traded/community marketplace. With this, the artist will not get 80% of it, the person who received the blueprint from Steam and placed it on the marketplace will. Also, it's nice to see a post concerning Rust.[/QUOTE] Hmmm.. Good point. So did Elix mean that the artist gets 80% of the overhead steam charges for the player 2 player sale?

[QUOTE=billy79;46317577]I really wish you'd stop equivocating the context and meaning of satisfying and satisfied. .[/QUOTE] Their meanings are equivalent, depending on which definition one intends, and I've already explained how context affects their usage.

[QUOTE=billy79;46316594]In order to be satisfi[I][/I][U][/U][B]ed[/B] all your needs and expecations need to be met. If they are not, you are not satisfied. Your changing the goal post. You did not say I did not know the meaning behind satisfy...you said satisfied. the "ed" indicates its the end of your desires or wants.[/QUOTE] the end of your desires or wants.... for cheesecake. Not the end of your needs or wants for anything ever again. [QUOTE=billy79;46316469]to put a complete end to ([B]a[/B] physical need or desire) <the players satisfied their hunger after the game with a big pasta dinner> [url]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/satisfied[/url] Its not linking correctly. It keep linking satisfy....when we are dicussing satisfied.[/QUOTE] You missed the word "a". Singular. one specific desire/need. This is why you are wrong. You can be satisfied by one thing and still have needs for others. Just like you can play Rust and be completely satisfied, but still want to customize your character though the global inventory. [B]Edit:[/B] Furthermore, if you scroll down farther on the definition of [URL="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/satisfied"]satisfied you linked[/URL], it explains it further: [QUOTE][B]satisfied[/B] If you are [B]satisfied [/B]with something, you are pleased with it, because it is what you wanted.[/QUOTE] "pleased with [B]it[/B]". Singular. [QUOTE=billy79;46316531]The problem is, you think satisfied and satisfy are the same things. The "ed" is key. COMPLETE END.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Its not linking correctly. It keep linking satisfy....when we are dicussing satisfied.[/QUOTE] That's because they are the same word, just different tenses. That's how English works.

Wtf. This last page is just awful.

[QUOTE=thelionnessa;46320207]Wtf. This last page is just awful.[/QUOTE] I agree. It's hard to follow, but the gist of the argument is "is marketplace is bad design?" intrepidenigm's definition was "game design should bring satisfaction" to the player billy79's counter was that because you have to leave the game it's self to be satisfied with the game (ie use the marketplace) then its bad design. intrepidenigm's rebuttal was you can be satisfied with the game and still want to use the market place. Personally I think billy79 just likes to argue.

Great discussion guys looks like this post has been really beneficial

At the end of the day you would not NEED to leave the game to obtain these blueprints, You could just play the game and acquire them organically with in the game I.E get them in air drops or finding them. So the marketplace is not a mandatory thing you don't HAVE to use it to gain new blueprints. It's more a question of choice, I was heavily against the marketplace idea but the more i think of it i am slowly warming to the idea. I am even thinking of expanding my skill set and trying to make something, been looking in to how TF2 works, it's items are showcased via workshop then evaluated by the devs before they are add to the game, and i believe the benefits of having community items screened and added to the game out weigh the bad points.

[QUOTE=intrepidenigm;46319720]Their meanings are equivalent.[/QUOTE] No, they are not equivalent. I'm sorry. They have two entirely different context. You cant argue from one context, then change it in the middle of the argument to whats technically an entirely different word. You are arbitrarily trying to change the standard context of a word. Just like you did with design. You created your own definition of design. Now you are creating your own definition of satisfied. This is why you link the word " satisfy", you think it proves you point but if you notice, the word we are discussing is spelled different and has a different context. You can not say "I'm satisfied with rust but I am going to look for stuff to make it better". It's a contradictory statement. You can say, "I [I]was[/I] satsified with rust but I'm going to look for stuff to make it better" "was" being the operative word, indicating past -tense, or your no long satisfied and no, this does not mean "dissatisfied" either. [editline]24th October 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=utilitron;46320297]I agree. It's hard to follow, but the gist of the argument is "is marketplace is bad design?" intrepidenigm's definition was "game design should bring satisfaction" to the player billy79's counter was that because you have to leave the game it's self to be satisfied with the game (ie use the marketplace) then its bad design. intrepidenigm's rebuttal was you can be satisfied with the game and still want to use the market place. Personally I think billy79 just likes to argue.[/QUOTE] You forgot one important detail. I said it was bad design and intrepidity decided to arbitrarily create a definition of design and called me wrong because my statement can not be supported using his definition....well he equivocates his own created definitions, then straw mans the ever living hell out of people. We should not be discussing design from the perspective of intrepidity definition of it and yes I do like to argue. From google and wiki: [QUOTE]Game design is the design of games. It is the art of elaborating rules and mechanics to facilitate interaction between players for playful, educational or simulation purposes.[/QUOTE] Quite simply, if you elaborate rules and mechanics to facilitate interaction between players then create a mechanism to bypass those rules, mechanics and interactions, its bad design. The mechanism defeats the purpose of your elaborate rules and mechanics to generate fun.

[QUOTE=billy79;46320711]You can not say "I'm satisfied with rust but I am going to look for stuff to make it better". It's a contradictory statement.[/QUOTE] No it isn't, because satisfied does not mean only what you think it means. Utilitron and I have pointed this out multiple times in multiple ways. You can absolutely be satisfied with Rust in the sense that it makes you happy, and still want to use the Steam Market to augment that experience. Being satisfied does not imply that you are totally satisfied or are satisfied in every way. Why are you struggling with the simple variations of a word? This stuff is pretty basic to the English language.

[QUOTE=billy79;46320711] You forgot one important detail. I said it was bad design and intrepidity decided to arbitrarily create a definition of design and called me wrong because my statement can not be supported using his definition....well he equivocates his own created definitions, then straw mans the ever living hell out of people. We should not be discussing design from the perspective of intrepidity definition of it.[/QUOTE] I have already [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1431704&p=46308856&viewfull=1#post46308856"]refuted your definition of bad design[/URL]. It's your [I]opinion[/I] that is it bad design. [QUOTE]Quite simply, if you elaborate rules and mechanics to facilitate interaction between players then create a mechanism to bypass those rules, mechanics and interactions, its bad design. The mechanism defeats the purpose of your elaborate rules and mechanics.[/QUOTE] No rules have been bypassed. The fact you can play the game without ever using the marketplace is proof if this. It is not required to play. It is a meta concept. It enhances the current mechanics by making it more diverse. [QUOTE]You can not say "I'm satisfied with rust but I am going to look for stuff to make it better". It's a contradictory statement.[/QUOTE] Sure you can. I am satisfied with he game mechanics of Magic the Gathering. I can by a pack of cards and play the game through to the end. I can at the same time not be satisfied with the preset cards in the starter pack, so I go buy booster packs to enhance my current deck. The act of customizing the deck and the act of playing the game are 2 separate things. Playing the game isn't dependent on customizing your deck. Just like Rust won't be dependent on using the marketplace.

[url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1432547[/url] this pls

This seems it will kill the need to scavenge "rad" areas if prints are randomly dropped. There won't be any epic battles or communities built up around "hot" zones. I don't like the idea at all. I want a cohesive experience; not one that forces me to go to some 3rd party software and seek out blueprints that I need or want.

[QUOTE=intrepidenigm;46320923]No it isn't, because satisfied does not mean only what you think it means.[/QUOTE] Yes, it does. If you do not accept that "satisfied" means your needs, wants and desires have been met, we have nothing left to dicuss. [QUOTE]You can absolutely be satisfied with Rust in the sense that it makes you happy, and still want to use the Steam Market to augment that experience.[/QUOTE] "Abolutely be satisfied" means satisfied. The "absolutely" only adds emphasis and does not modify the meaning of "satisfied". Lets roll this back so I can show you how stupid you are being. Satisfaction... We both agree there are degrees of satisfaction. I think we both agree that satisfaction is a constantly evolving feeling that changes based on information. There are values you can assoicate to satisfaction, namely the the very top end "satisfied" and the very bottom end "not satisfied". [QUOTE] Being satisfied does not imply that you are totally satisfied or are satisfied in every way. [/QUOTE] Yes, it does. Totally satisfied means you are satisfied. "Totally" only adds emphasis and does not modify the word. [QUOTE]Why are you struggling with the simple variations of a word? This stuff is pretty basic to the English language. [/QUOTE] The problem is on your end buddy. If you do not accept that satisfied indicates you no longer want, need or desire something, then we are done, I'll write you off as the village idiot.

[QUOTE=A. James;46321196]This seems it will kill the need to scavenge "rad" areas if prints are randomly dropped. There won't be any epic battles or communities built up around "hot" zones. I don't like the idea at all. I want a cohesive experience; not one that forces me to go to some 3rd party software and seek out blueprints that I need or want.[/QUOTE] No, the random drops happen outside of the game and have no effect of what you can craft in game. still need to get the blueprints on the server from "rad" areas

[QUOTE=utilitron;46320955]I have already [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1431704&p=46308856&viewfull=1#post46308856"]refuted your definition of bad design[/URL]. It's your [I]opinion[/I] that is it bad design..[/QUOTE] You can repeat and repost all you want, it wont make it true. [QUOTE]No rules have been bypassed.[/QUOTE] This false. When you are outside of the game acquiring stuff, you've bypassed the game, consequently its rules. [QUOTE] The fact you can play the game without ever using the marketplace is proof if this. [/QUOTE] Does not change the fact that you can go outside the game and by pass the rules to acquire something, because you do not "have" to, has no bearing. [QUOTE]It is not required to play. It is a meta concept. It enhances the current mechanics by making it more diverse. [/QUOTE] This very well may be true but ultimately irrreelvant as to the design aspect. A poorly designed object/concept can be diverse and enhanced. Your argument is basically its a good idea and adds x value so it must be good design and thats a very poor argument. [QUOTE]Sure you can. I am satisfied with he [B]game mechanics [/B]of Magic the Gathering. I can by a pack of cards and play the game through to the end. I can at the same time not be satisfied with the preset [B]cards in the starter pack[/B], so I go buy booster packs to enhance my current deck.[/QUOTE] sigh....You are dicussing and specifying two enirely different objects/concepts. You can not be satisfied with Born of the Gods but wish they would of created a different card. Your satsifcation with the expansion set has no bearing on your satisfaction with game mechanics (unless you are speaking specially of a new mechanic created for that set (i.e. outlast or what ever its called), but thats geting into the weeds). The act of customizing the deck and the act of playing the game are 2 separate things. Playing the game isn't dependent on customizing your deck. Just like Rust won't be dependent on using the marketplace.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=billy79;46321266]Yes, it does. If you do not accept that "satisfied" means your needs, wants and desires have been met, we have nothing left to dicuss.[/QUOTE] That is NOT the only meaning that it has. Why do you think that? For further explanation, please see my previous responses, as well as Utilitron's. We have thoroughly proved you wrong on this topic. [QUOTE]Totally satisfied means you are satisfied. "Totally" only adds emphasis and does not modify the word.[/QUOTE] It does modify the word. It is possibly to be satisfied in a limited way without being totally satisfied. This is a simple concept... [QUOTE]If you do not accept that satisfied indicates you no longer want, need or desire something, then we are done[/QUOTE] That's not the only thing that it means, and even that particular meaning does not mean what you think it means. Utilitron has already pointed out that no longer wanting one particular thing can denote satisfaction. It is possible to be satisfied with Rust and still desire to use the Steam Market. If you don't agree with that after all this...you might need to buy some sort of English language book so that you can engage in discussion at a higher level.

[QUOTE=intrepidenigm;46321406]That is NOT the only meaning that it has. Why do you think that? For further explanation, please see my previous responses, as well as Utilitron's. We have thoroughly proved you wrong on this topic..[/QUOTE] Yes or no. Being satisfied indciates you no longer have needs, wants or desires. [QUOTE]It does modify the word. It is possible to be satisfied in a limited way without being totally satisfied. This is a simple concept...[/QUOTE] You can not indicate you are satisfied in a limited way with out adding a modifier...(i.e. I'm somewhat satsified, I'm kind of satisfied, I'm mostly satisfied, I'm almost satisfied, etc, etc). When you state you are satisfied, all your needs, desires and wants have been met. [QUOTE]It is possible to be satisfied with Rust and still desire to use the Steam Market.[/QUOTE] Then you are only somewhat satisfied with rust, not satisfied. [QUOTE] If you don't agree with that after all this...you might need to buy some sort of English language book so that you can engage in discussion at a higher level.[/QUOTE] I'm going to appeal to authority, which I'm loathe to do but since you keep saying "we have, or I have" proven you wrong....over and over again, I think I need to state why your authority on the subject is irrelevant to me, personally. About two years ago, I went through a battery of test in order to address some mental health issues I've had since leaving the Army, this range of test included full congnative work up. The results of this test were interesting, I scored very poor on short term memory in regards to non-contextual concepts (i.e. math, or remembering a series of words that are not in context of anything. However, on the other end, my vocabulary, comprehension and ability to understand complex concepts and contexts all scored within 1% of the people in the world. You can appeal to your own authority and that of others, but the simple reality is, I'm right and your wrong when it comes to the context and definitions of words. You can say it has mutliple meanings but in the context we are dicussing, the one I've alluded to several times, is the proper use and defintion. You do not have to believe me. I do not care. I'm no longer interested in disucssing this with you becasue you obviously have no qualms about changing your argument in midstream and pretend that's what you've been arguing all along. All I have to do is point to your arbritary definition of design. I believe, that you believe thats the correct definition and its nothing more than a made up defintion to suit your argument. I'll also point your use of "satisfy" to prove what the word "satisfied" means, which was disingenious at best and just plain stupid at worst.

[QUOTE=billy79;46321569]Yes or no. Being satisfied indciates you no longer have needs, wants or desires.[/QUOTE] No. You are using a plural in a singular case. Being satisfied indciates you no longer have a need, want or desire for whatever the specific thing that you needed, wanted or desired. [QUOTE]You can not indicate you are satisfied in a limited way with out adding a modifier...(i.e. I'm somewhat satsified, I'm kind of satisfied, I'm mostly satisfied, I'm almost satisfied, etc, etc). When you state you are satisfied, all your needs, desires and wants have been met.[/QUOTE] No, satisfied is not a global state of being, unless directly specified as the subject. [QUOTE]Then you are only somewhat satisfied with rust, not satisfied.[/QUOTE] True. But there are 2 aspects at play here, there is the gameplay aspect, and there is the customization aspect. You can be satisfied with the way the game is played and still want to modify it. By saying adding the ability to customize your experience makes it bad design, you would then have to include any other modification. The fact they are adding an API to customize individual servers means the game was badly designed, the fact you can change settings would mean the settings were badly designed. Customizability is actually a caveat of [B]good[/B] design. People want the ability to enhance their experiences. Customization is a mechanic that allows for this. [QUOTE]I'm going to appeal to authority, which I'm loathe to do but since you keep saying "we have, or I have" proven you wrong....over and over again, I think I need to state why your authority on the subject is irrelevant to me, personally. About two years ago, I went through a battery of test in order to address some mental health issues I've had since leaving the Army, this range of test included full congnative work up. The results of this test were interesting, I scored very poor on short term memory in regards to non-contextual concepts (i.e. math, or remembering a series of words that are not in context of anything. However, on the other end, my vocabulary, comprehension and ability to understand complex concepts and contexts all scored within 1% of the people in the world. You can appeal to your own authority and that of others, but the simple reality is, I'm right and your wrong when it comes to the context and definitions of words.[/QUOTE] Wow, so you think because some test showed you have a high level of understanding of vocabulary and comprehension means you are somehow the end-all be-all here? Let me drop a little knowledge on you: 1% of 7 billion is 70,000,000. That means of all the people in the world, there are 70 MILLION people with just a good, or better understanding of vocabulary and comprehension. And guess what? I'm one of them. DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNN. I have proved your arguments wrong using your own stated definitions. Don't sit here and give some sob story and claim you are smarter than me therefore you can't be wrong. Just swallow your pride and accept it. [B]Edit:[/B] At this point it's like playing "I win" with that kid from Big Daddy. It doesn't matter what anyone else says, because you find your self the highest authority. "I win, be cause I say I win."

[QUOTE=billy79;46321569]However, on the other end, my vocabulary, comprehension and ability to understand complex concepts and contexts all scored within 1% of the people in the world.[/QUOTE] Um, okay. That doesn't mean anything to me in the context of this argument, even if it is true. I have my own "authority" resume that I could certainly type out too, but I won't, because it doesn't actually matter. [QUOTE]but the simple reality is, I'm right and your wrong when it comes to the context and definitions of words.[/QUOTE] I'm starting to think you're actually a troll. "I'm right and your wrong."* Really? You type something as ghastly as that and still think you have some greater authority in the subjects you mentioned? You're either a troll or delusional. *For those who didn't understand why that statement was so horrible in the context of this discussion, it's because billy79 committed the cardinal sin of using 'your' where he should have used 'you're'.