I can't post without apologizing to everyone for keeping this thread's pulse pumping...I just can't help myself. As I've stated before, to each their own...but some of the of arguments "for" are just so damn stupid. You can't dial out lag...if you got it, you got it. You can't dial in a new hardware (please go ahead and make your argument that you theoretically can by just "buying" new components...not the same, but feel free to display further idiocy). You [U]can[/U] dial in and out your Gamma on a whim. Any monitor manufactured within the last decade can, independent of anything else you want to try and compare it to. It's just a choice, which gives you an advantage or disadvantage depending on which side of the fence you choose to live on...and I'm cool with it either way.
I choose to not dial it in, in favor of immersion. The night cycle is crafting time for me...and usually gives me a rl excuse to go grab a smoke. Another advantage for me in not dialing it in, is that Gamma tweakers effectively are the new zombies. Roaming the countryside only after dark, prowling around the perimeter of my dimly lit shanty...giving me a reason to think twice before wandering out alone. I could give two shits if anybody nets a higher resource return by being able to farm round the clock. I also get a chuckle out of hearing shots ring out in the night in the not so distant valley, signaling yet another day-walker falling prey to the mutant Gamma zombies.
Ok, I think we all can move on now. Everybody's gonna play how they want to play, in spite of the great (or not so great) debate that continues to rage on in these forums.
[QUOTE=TheRagingJ]I feel that in order for Rust to be played to the most fair standard. Nobody gets to use a monitor, just a keyboard and mouse. That way no one can complain about lag or gamma and relies purely and the person's ability to visualize a 3d environment with only sound. Or maybe we should get rid of speakers too, sound gives people too much help sometimes. Then again being able to have a mouse with its own sensitivity modifier, or even changing mouse sensitivity at all should be removed. Then again being able to move in general makes things to hard for others. So we all agree on just playing with a tower right?[/QUOTE]
Not fair at all.
Rust should just be a cutscene.
Sure, when VAC starts picking up higher gamma as a cheat, it'll be considered as such.
The reason why [I]thelionnessa's[/I] argument is a weak one is this:
The [B]purpose[/B] of night in Rust is to drastically reduce a player's visibility and increase danger. When a person turns up their gamma, they defeat this purpose. That is why turning up the gamma should be considered cheating.
Any issues with lag, mouse-response, overclocked graphics, bad computers, etc. are [i]not[/i] iinserted purposefully to thematically alter gameplay and are totally irrelevant to the point at hand.
(Example: Let's say the developers implement swamps, and when you walk through a swamp, the rate at which you look around is slowed down. Anyone who turns up their mouse speed when they're in a swamp to counteract this slow is cheating.)
The most correct term would probably be exploiting. You are tweaking your settings to gain an advantage over others within the game that was not intended by the designers. If the game had been designed around everyone seeing at night then there wouldn't be flashlights and torches. This is the same as using a third party program to gain a reticule which can get you banned. And no having a great PC and Internet is not cheating, the game designers built the game with the expectation that you would run it at a playable frame rate and ping. At the moment there is nothing anyone can do about it but I would not be surprised if there are limits in the future.
Have you ever been in the middle of nowhere with no light pollution in real life? its fucking dark, and even with moonlight an open field can have visibility of less than 5 feet.
For those of us who play as purists there are torches and for the time being flashlights (im guessing the current mods will be pulled when they remove modern weapons tho.)
Now what your post got right was that there should be nocturnal animals. Maybe some hyenas and ocelots for danger, and some less dangerous animals like hedgehogs for resources (i wouldnt mind building a dart gun that uses hedgehog quills for ammo and snake venom to add poison damage.)
edit: Oh and armadillos to craft a new type of armor!
[QUOTE=AmagicalFishy;44345387]The reason why [I]thelionnessa's[/I] argument is a weak one is this:
The [B]purpose[/B] of night in Rust is to drastically reduce a player's visibility and increase danger. When a person turns up their gamma, they defeat this purpose. That is why turning up the gamma should be considered cheating.
Any issues with lag, mouse-response, overclocked graphics, bad computers, etc. are [i]not[/i] iinserted purposefully to thematically alter gameplay and are totally irrelevant to the point at hand.
(Example: Let's say the developers implement swamps, and when you walk through a swamp, the rate at which you look around is slowed down. Anyone who turns up their mouse speed when they're in a swamp to counteract this slow is cheating.)[/QUOTE]
The purpose of creating sound (distance, field of depth) quiet until right behind you is to increase danger. Turning up your volume gives you super hearing, the same as turning up gamma gives you super vision. Both are exactly the same and that argument is not weak. You may not like it because it makes your entire post irrelevant, but I can't help that. If I can't see well enough to get what I need done, I make it easier to see. If I can't hear well enough, I make it easier to hear. If I can't move as quick as I want and my character doesn't respond properly, I fix my sensitivity.
You could also argue that mouse sensitivity gives you a huge advantage, I am just unsure if Rust (spinning or turning around) is effected by mouse sensitivity. Other games, yes. However, your swamp example is equally a weak argument? Why? Because like with hearing and seeing, humans turning at a faster rate than the game intended is equally "cheating" based off your example. You don't have to be in a swamp to understand a human can't turn 180 in a split second, yet with the mouse settings, it's possible.
Super movement, super hearing, super vision. Everyone turn down the volume, leave our mouses at the exact same sensitivity, and keep your gamma at levels everyone feels is absolutely fair. As dumb as that sounds, is as dumb as those arguing it's cheating sounds.
I'll agree that lag, fps, and overclocking is a different argument and a bit weak. However, the point was there are many advantages and disadvantage with hardware and setting differences. Whether the devs intended every computer on earth to run their game exactly the way they envisioned it, that isn't the case. Maybe those of us with computers not so great are reverse cheating by having computers that don't play the way devs intended. Sorry devs. My 12 fps I had my first 75 hours playing was me "bucking" the system.
Turning up the volume of your speakers does [i]not[/i] give a player super hearing. It does not allow a player to hear things said player would not otherwise hear if the volume were at a normal level (unless there was some other factor [i]outside[/i] of Rust, say, bad hearing or construction outside). The sound works such that you can't hear the footsteps of a person too far away (regardless of how high you turn up the volume)—that is, you can't use your speaker's volume to defeat the purpose of an implemented game feature. Turning up the volume does [i]not[/i] give you super hearing, it just makes what you could anyway hear regularly... well... very loud.
Now, on the other hand, say that a person's volume was proportional to how "far" away a person could hear. Someone who turned their volume all the way up just to hear the footsteps of someone else a mile away would, in fact, be cheating. That is, someone who used their volume as a means of overriding a game-restriction would be cheating.
My metric for whether or not a player is cheating is independent of the amount of advantage said player gets. I do not deny that a better computer gives one player an advantage over another; that doesn't have anything to do with my point, so you [i]could[/i] argue it, but to no real avail. Comparing mouse sensitivity and night-vision is comparing apples and oranges (unless it is done in regards to the the "swamp" example I gave earlier).
My metric for whether or not a player is cheating is dependent only on whether or not a player is circumventing an in-game restriction. Being able to see at night is circumventing an in-game restriction (namely, [i]not[/i] being able to see at night: thus, the implementation of flashlights and torches). It is cheating.
[editline]24th March 2014[/editline]
Also, "reverse cheating" ... ?
[QUOTE=Teh Dictionary]cheat
CHēt/
verb
gerund or present participle: cheating
1.
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, esp. in a game or examination.
[/QUOTE]
[i]To act unfairly in order to gain an advantage[/i]
Don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure that changing settings so that you can see everything at night while people who don't know about this can't is unfair, and it's definitely an advantage. Like I said, stuff like you having good fps isn't 'unfair', because having the game run at a playable frame rate is normal. Being able to see at night as if you have night vision, is [i]probably[/i] not intended
Also how does higher mouse sensitivity even help isn't it like a personal preference sort of thing
[QUOTE=Pyroknight;44347747][i]To act unfairly in order to gain an advantage[/i]
Being able to see at night as if you have night vision, is [i]probably[/i] not intended
[/QUOTE]
You should try to change the gamma in your game and come back and tell me how much more you could see. Love it when people post BS because they have no clue what they are talking about.
To solve this matter IMO we ALL have whether to set gamma up or we ALL don't screw with it AT ALL due to the fact that at night time we all suppose to get the same light effect equally OR i personally call it unfair game,as simple as this.
Yeah, someone said to add a particle effect or something that would get more visible with increased gamma settings so that your screen would be a giant mess if you made the gamma too high.
[QUOTE=deadpool{SWE};44343468]You seem to think you need a super computer to play rust.
you only need a half assed one to play the game without lagg.
just because i can play the game without lagg, does that mean i'm cheating? I'm just playing the game the way it's supposed to be played.
Could hackers make the same argument? "I'm so bad at the game so i need hacks."
No the can't.[/QUOTE]
changing the gamma isn't a hack
nice half assed weak argument but it's not even slightly close lmao
[QUOTE=TNT the GREAT;44347813]To solve this matter IMO we ALL have whether to set gamma up or we ALL don't screw with it AT ALL due to the fact that at night time we all suppose to get the same light effect equally OR i personally call it unfair game,as simple as this.[/QUOTE]
The gamma correction is needed as people have to adjust the gfx output to their screen. Even older screens tend to darken out and you need to compensate for that.
Why is it so hard to understand?
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_correction"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_correction[/URL]
[QUOTE=thelionnessa;44346077]The purpose of creating sound (distance, field of depth) quiet until right behind you is to increase danger. Turning up your volume gives you super hearing, the same as turning up gamma gives you super vision. Both are exactly the same and that argument is not weak. You may not like it because it makes your entire post irrelevant, but I can't help that. If I can't see well enough to get what I need done, I make it easier to see. If I can't hear well enough, I make it easier to hear. If I can't move as quick as I want and my character doesn't respond properly, I fix my sensitivity.
You could also argue that mouse sensitivity gives you a huge advantage, I am just unsure if Rust (spinning or turning around) is effected by mouse sensitivity. Other games, yes. However, your swamp example is equally a weak argument? Why? Because like with hearing and seeing, humans turning at a faster rate than the game intended is equally "cheating" based off your example. You don't have to be in a swamp to understand a human can't turn 180 in a split second, yet with the mouse settings, it's possible.
Super movement, super hearing, super vision. Everyone turn down the volume, leave our mouses at the exact same sensitivity, and keep your gamma at levels everyone feels is absolutely fair. As dumb as that sounds, is as dumb as those arguing it's cheating sounds.
I'll agree that lag, fps, and overclocking is a different argument and a bit weak. However, the point was there are many advantages and disadvantage with hardware and setting differences. Whether the devs intended every computer on earth to run their game exactly the way they envisioned it, that isn't the case. Maybe those of us with computers not so great are reverse cheating by having computers that don't play the way devs intended. Sorry devs. My 12 fps I had my first 75 hours playing was me "bucking" the system.[/QUOTE]
Next time i ll meet you with increased by 1000% sound effect i will shoot from a shoutgun into your face, so your ears will be bleeding. I think this game is supposed to make your ears bleeding. I think YOU deserve to bleed with that sence of @fair play@. Thats the price for increasing sound effects. And price for encreasing gamma should be your blindness in daytime. Nerves of human (and this game is supposed to be some kind of simulator) have some limits and diapason of work. By DRAMATICALLY increasing sound and changing gamma you are ruining sence and idea of game. I can say than, that aimbot is not hack. Why? I have java+ and c++ on my comp! I can do programm for this. Everyone can.
[QUOTE=tbot;44347865]The gamma correction is needed as people have to adjust the gfx output to their screen. Even older screens tend to darken out and you need to compensate for that.
Why is it so hard to understand?
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_correction"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_correction[/URL][/QUOTE]
I understand how "some" people may have technical difficulty with older monitors and hardware also i do understand some medical issues regarding the night time in-game and those are excluded .BUT for normal ones is what i said earlier, oh and you can lighten the surrounding in-game during night time without the need to adjust gamma by tilting the camera to any direction ,i prefer to tilt it downward while running so i can see where i am going or make things ahead of me a lil bit visible, just try it :)
I have changed my Gamma. One thing I found while playing Rust is, if you use an IPS monitor you cannot see anything for about 5-10 minutes at night, and I mean nothing, not even an outline. Changing the gamma to a certain point makes it easier to see. If I am using my 2nd/3rd monitor for rust, which are LCD/TFT then I don't need to change anything.
Razor-users are cheaters ! configurating your mouse sensibility is cheating ! configurating your shortcut is cheating ! looking at your screen with glasses is cheating ! using Two screen is cheating ! playing with your both two hand is cheating ! playing using your brain is cheating ! playing looking at your screen is cheating (you can look at your screen through a miror only ! like medusa)? playing while your foot s touching the ground is cheating ! playing if you have more than 10 fingers is cheating (iincluding foot)!i can go far far far ! but to finish : EVERYBODY WHO S KILLING ME IS CHEATING BECAUSE I M A ANGRY !
Comon , what else ? :D
[QUOTE=tbot;44347865]The gamma correction is needed as people have to adjust the gfx output to their screen. Even older screens tend to darken out and you need to compensate for that.
Why is it so hard to understand?
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_correction"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_correction[/URL][/QUOTE]
Sorry mate, but you're mixing up entirely different things.
The purpose of gamma correction in this context is to even out differences between how different screens and different graphics cards display an image. For gamma correction to work as intended you need to know what the reference has to look like. So a proper gamma correction is only possible by using dedicated measuring devices to calibrate your screen and/or manipulate your graphics card's LUT accordingly.
Your comment also suggests that people fiddling with their gamma only do it because their screens are darker than usual (which, again, is impossible for them to evaluate without proper measuring devices). I guess we all know that most of these people do it to gain an advantage and increase the visibility at night beyond what's intended.
I can also tell you that my screen is hardware calibrated using an X-Rite i1Display Pro, yet in Rust it's pretty impossible to see any other player during the night. That means, even people with a bad/unusually dark screen do not have any disadvantage compared to someone playing the game as intended, since there's no "darker than dark". If I can't see shit on a hardware calibrated monitor, what disadvantage do you have on an even darker screen? None, at all.
[QUOTE=Warm;44343386]So does more RAM, a better GPU, a better CPU, bigger monitors, VOIP...the list goes on.[/QUOTE]
No. That's called a fair advantage.
[QUOTE=Warm;44343386]So does more RAM, a better GPU, a better CPU, bigger monitors, VOIP...the list goes on.[/QUOTE]
Lag and low fps is NOT supposed to be a programmed game obstacle.
[QUOTE=AmagicalFishy;44346714]Turning up the volume of your speakers does [i]not[/i] give a player super hearing. It does not allow a player to hear things said player would not otherwise hear if the volume were at a normal level (unless there was some other factor [i]outside[/i] of Rust, say, bad hearing or construction outside). The sound works such that you can't hear the footsteps of a person too far away (regardless of how high you turn up the volume)—that is, you can't use your speaker's volume to defeat the purpose of an implemented game feature. Turning up the volume does [i]not[/i] give you super hearing, it just makes what you could anyway hear regularly... well... very loud.
Now, on the other hand, say that a person's volume was proportional to how "far" away a person could hear. Someone who turned their volume all the way up just to hear the footsteps of someone else a mile away would, in fact, be cheating. That is, someone who used their volume as a means of overriding a game-restriction would be cheating.[/QUOTE]
Turning up your volume is equivalent to turning up your gamma (as is your mouse sensitivity settings to make you turn at super human speeds). Wording it in other ways doesn't make a new argument or refute anything I've previously said. You hear better, your depth of hearing is better, and yes, you hear people "further" away. The further they are, the more quiet the footsteps, unless your volume is turned up.
[editline]25th March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=nooblygoobly;44348426]I have changed my Gamma. One thing I found while playing Rust is, if you use an IPS monitor you cannot see anything for about 5-10 minutes at night, and I mean nothing, not even an outline. Changing the gamma to a certain point makes it easier to see. If I am using my 2nd/3rd monitor for rust, which are LCD/TFT then I don't need to change anything.[/QUOTE]
[sarcasm]But the Devs intended on you, specifically with that monitor, not being able to see. Even though on other monitors you can at least make our shapes and function some, the devs intended for your monitor to be absolutely pitch black. Don't touch the gamma. [/sarcasm]
Don't feel any guilt about turning up volume, gamma, or mouse sensitivity if it's how you enjoy playing and it helps you actually be able to play the game. I play in daylight only servers, that's how much I do not care about "night" or the devs "intentions". They allow admin to control daylight, so their intention was to let people who want it to be dark and nighttime, have their dark and nighttime. And those who don't, don't. It's a game. We play it to enjoy it. Your preference.
[editline]25th March 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=GePree00;44348722]No. That's called a fair advantage.[/QUOTE]
Not to the guy at a disadvantage. Sorry.
Guys !
[U][B]I have the solution against gamma abuse :[/B][/U]
The dev Team can lower the view distance when i's night (or add a big DOF, black wall, ...), so when it's dark you cant see furthen than a few meters even if u are using gamma. This distance can be adjusted if u are using a Torch for example...
I don't know how difficult it is technically for the dev team but [B]it will be effective [/B]!!!
[QUOTE=00alexandre;44348902]Guys !
[U][B]I have the solution against gamma abuse :[/B][/U]
The dev Team can lower the view distance when i's night (or add a big DOF, black wall, ...), so when it's dark you cant see furthen than a few meters even if u are using gamma. This distance can be adjusted if u are using a Torch for example...
I don't know how difficult it is technically for the dev team but [B]it will be effective [/B]!!![/QUOTE]
oh and what if we turn off the screen of players during 5 min ! everybody will like it !
Hum =_= And no, a cigaret should be seen at 15km with a snipe scope in realty, so let the light be seen during the night !
If you are talking about a basic "war fog" .. oh ill be so happy to feel like in my first videogame "Age of empire" ! so wonderfull graphism incoming !
[QUOTE=Frares;44348914]oh and what if we turn off the screen of players during 5 min ! everybody will like it ![/QUOTE]
What is the link with what i've said ? I find any.
[QUOTE=00alexandre;44348944]What is the link with what i've said ? I find any.[/QUOTE]
"black wall"
i m sory for epic sarcasm, but this topic sound non-sence since begining... guys who love the realism and dont touch just a little of their gamma should be happy to be affraid in the night more than others , because IRL some people see betterly during the night.
ive lightly touched my gama, and this is realy realy hard to see anything during the nomoon night. but i never met people who strangly seen me during the night specialy since the "new moon" update. Moreover i dont feel good to improve too much the gama, because the game could become ugly yurk, so free to you to feel afraid of other player, or diisgusted by your graphism, or just find your point between =_=
So that s why i wonder why a personnal choice become a Debate !
Ok, do i need to draw what's in my mind ? Is what Im saying so hard to undertand ? :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Bernie Stacks;44343045]I played rust without changing my gamma for a little while, and I found it to be pretty much impossible to play at night. I've noticed some purists(if you will) on the forum saying that rust should have pitch black night like it used to. I personally disagree, as it takes a full cycle of the day out of gameplay, and would rather see maybe nocturnal animals you can hunt or something of that nature rather than have a point in the day thats virtually unplayable outdoors without a bright "kill me please I'm over here" torch. Some people love pitch black night, and I politely disagree.
Since playing at night on my monitor was just not happening at all, I adjusted the gamma on my monitor to play. However, I didnt raise it to the point where night is as bright as day, because that definitely does give a ridiculous unfair advantage, and I've always felt like cheating in a game takes away pretty much all the satisfaction of whatever you had to cheat to do. I still have trouble understanding why people use things like aimbots, I just dont see the fun in killing someone if some code did all the work for you. When it comes to my gamma, I change it JUST ENOUGH that I can see a little better. No night vision, just a little better than zero visibility.
As rust continues its development, I'm sure we'll see one of those sliders where you adjust it enough to just barely see a logo, but until something like this (which is essential to a game where you play at night) is implemented, I'll be doing my own adjustments in my system settings. I dont deny the potential to really cheat and gain unfair advantage via this method, but until something is put in by facepunch, I wouldnt consider it a cheat or exploit, just a necessary workaround until further development happens.
TLDR:As long as you dont raise your gamma to such a high level that you cant even tell the sun went down, for some it is a necessary step.
Your thoughts?[/QUOTE]
please go play tibia.
Change hardware to take advantage is a exploit. While players try play without anything change, you is taking advantage about it. Changing gamma simply remove the immersion game. If so, what is the fun of play at night? for what that torch? for what that flashlight??
I really think you dont understand the spirit of this game.... after apocalipse... in my opinion rust don't need have night vision. This game is a survivor game. SO, i say again. Change gamma is a exploit.
[QUOTE=brunocasado;44349021]please go play tibia.
Change hardware to take advantage is a exploit. While players try play without anything change, you is taking advantage about it. Changing gamma simply remove the immersion game. If so, what is the fun of play at night? for what that torch? for what that flashlight??
I really think you dont understand the spirit of this game.... after apocalipse... in my opinion rust don't need have night vision. This game is a survivor game. SO, i say again. Change gamma is a exploit.[/QUOTE]
Would you consider it cheating if you adjusted your gamma/brightness to fit your screen in the beginning using one of those "adjust the slider so you can barely see the logo on the left" kind of systems? I think if that was in the game(and I'm sure it will be eventually), then they would have a benchmark for a fair balance of darkness at night. Think back to all the games you've played where you find yourself in dark environments frequently. They have that slider in the beginning, because they acknowledge that different monitors have different qualities, and require the game to be configured to work on each individual monitor.
Also, I'm not saying it should be bright as day. Its still quite hard to see at night, but its not pitch black. I dont think that that has anything to do with my understanding of the spirit of the game. There are still plenty of times that I need to use a torch or a flashlight, and I still avoid travelling at night thanks to poor visibility.
[QUOTE=thelionnessa;44348836]Turning up your volume is equivalent to turning up your gamma (as is your mouse sensitivity settings to make you turn at super human speeds). Wording it in other ways doesn't make a new argument or refute anything I've previously said. You hear better, your depth of hearing is better, and yes, you hear people "further" away. The further they are, the more quiet the footsteps, unless your volume is turned up.[/quote]
Refuting several points by claiming it's simply "different wording" does not a good refutation make. For all intents and purposes, you may as well not have replied. I explained pretty clearly why a player turning up their sound and mouse sensitivity is not cheating, while turning up gamma is. I even provided hypothetical examples wherein turning up sound/sensetivy could be considered cheating to further clarify the difference. Furthermore, I explicitly described an advantage-independent metric for cheating that was consistent with the rest of the post.
Yours is a bad (see: weak) reply that is equivalent to a more verbose "lol no"
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