How software development actually works (and how Facepunch is Failing) - Rust

[QUOTE=mrknifey;46403908]as much as i dislike the way you have made it, i actually agree with what i interpret as your point. the team would probably suffer less frustration from the community by completing baseline rather than entering new concepts into the game. spears, new clothes, bota bags, an entirely new building system including some changes to the components, salvaged weapons, syringes etc are very cool, but probably not of the highest priority IF the aim is to achieve baseline. instead, reintroducing and bugfixing the old elements should be a high priority. that said, although i feel that way, i will wait patiently and hope that they don't get distracted by all the pretty shinies on the way:)[/QUOTE] Well said.

[QUOTE=Mattly;46404227]I 100% agree with Prescription. I just wish I could have put it so eloquently. Many of posts above show that people aren't prepared to be open minded to Prescriptions points. He's not talking about who does what and why, he's talking about how a successful project needs to planned out to accomplish the desired outcome. Most software developers use closed alphas and betas because they realise the damage they could do if they release a game to early in the development cycle. I have been reading the forums over the last few months and there is no question the amount of negative threads is increasing proportionality as people lose patience and get frustrated with the game. Pointing out to folks that it's in early alpha or posting warnings "before purchasing know this" won't address the issue, it will just antagonize those who are already frustrated. :) When you're adding your 2 cents remember everyone here loves Rust including those who have negative things to say. Prescription has at no stage made derogatory comments about anyone elses post and if you want to have a meaningful input try to follow his example.[/QUOTE] Full disclosure, I did say some things I regret, but was respectful to those who were respectful to me... Thank you for not losing sight of my point though, much appreciated.

Yeah well in the time it took for me to write that post the thread grew somewhat. LOL. However you were clearly baited so no foul in my opinion. There's the large demographic of people playing Rust and some members have discovered their new found power sitting behind a keyboard without actually having to front up to people with their tough talk and bullying. I suspect you wanted a response with the title of your thread and you got one. Facepunch does seem to be watching and listening however and I see they are now hiring which is a good thing. I think Garry and his team would reduce a lot of the angst if they let us know what the end game is for this project, and please don't say it will just continue to get developed as that is akin to saying "we aren't sure yet".

[QUOTE=Mattly;46404292]I see they are now hiring which is a good thing.[/QUOTE] FP Studios has been hiring for months; the Rust team's at least doubled since it hit Steam. Hiring is ongoing. [QUOTE=Mattly;46404292]I think Garry and his team would reduce a lot of the angst if they let us know what the end game is for this project, and please don't say it will just continue to get developed as that is akin to saying "we aren't sure yet".[/QUOTE] [url]http://garry.tv/2013/06/21/the-story-of-rust/[/url] That's the closest you'll get for now, I believe. It'd be nice if the devs telegraphed their end goals a bit stronger, but I think they're still undecided on some things, and that is [B]not a bad thing[/B]. Prototyping and experimenting is critical for releasing a game that isn't mediocre and boring rehashes, and Rust is trying to do some very unusual things with player responsibility and emergent gameplay and behaviour. garry is hoping that entire player-run towns will pop up. Obviously, at this early state, that's very difficult, between wipes and the incompleteness of the game, but he's looking ahead to the time when the Early Access banner is ready to come off and the game be upgraded to 1.0 (or at least when it's time to transition into beta and the fundamentals aren't unstable).

I think what the original poster was trying to say is that Rust would have a much more consistent following (and, therefore, more overall success) if less effort was devoted to implementing new features and more effort was devoted to first getting the game back to where it was before they decided to start from scratch. For example, we have entirely new systems for constructing buildings and locking doors, but we don't yet have more fundamental things like workbenches that allow for quicker or expanded crafting. We have newly modeled rad suits, but they are worthless because defensive modifiers for clothing have yet to be implemented. We have the ability to loot sleepers and corpses, but we don't yet have a pickaxe that gathers resources more efficiently than a hatchet. We have the added status of hydration, but no ability to drink anything as of yet. These are just a few examples which demonstrate disordered priorities and a lack of direction. It feels like Garry and his team are trying to get experimental up to where legacy left off, but simultaneously taking the new features they wanted to add to legacy and coding them into experimental. The problem is that the two objectives conflict with one another, and the result is a mess.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;46404377]FP Studios has been hiring for months; the Rust team's at least doubled since it hit Steam. Hiring is ongoing. Only spotted that they were hiring in the latest blog. [url]http://garry.tv/2013/06/21/the-story-of-rust/[/url] [/QUOTE] Thanks for the link, read it and laughed. "One of the things I want to do is make it so you start naked, like a caveman. This should reduce PVP – because who wouldn’t run from a naked guy with an axe." In the last try at Rust experimental I didn't get killed once by any player who wasn't naked with a rock or spear! everyone prefers naked , so not sure it's played out as anticipated. Basically experienced players always seem to go naked as they hope they will appear as less dangerous until they get close. I guess it might change when there are actual Armour values to clothing so that it means something to wear it. :)

Wanna know why facepunch fails? Because anyone who makes any comment critical of the studio gets instantly banned. The thread gets closed and they learn nothing from their mistakes. A good game studio will listen to their customers complaints. Here is my comment from a thread complaining about the lack of balance and the priorities that facepunch is failing to focus on that was immediately removed before I could even finish typing my reply to it. Garry commented some generic snarky, "oh its alpha you expect it to be finished?" comment and then it was immediately gone and I'm sure the user who posted the comment is probably banned. Amazing forum admins. Ban anyone who has anything at all negative to say. (Hey garry, there have been about 10 threads just like this in the last 2 days. Maybe instead of making snarky bullshit comments you should listen since the player base has dropped significantly. Instead of dicking around with frog boots and textures. This is a huge problem with this studio. I remember almost a year ago when the aoe death hack was running amuck in every server. The next dev update didn't even mention it. It talked about how they made the night sky look better. Why not spend just one week making the game fun? Change the values of stuff. Make ore nodes more prevalent but yield less? Fix that people can glitch through a base that took 8 hours to build in 5 minutes by hitting 2 trees and building two railings. How about making the pvp bearable to where everything in the game isn't a one hit kill and people melee you from 25 yards away? If you want people to alpha test a game for you make it a game first then add stuff in. The netcode is god awful, the glitching makes it completely useless to play, and your dev team has all of its priorities in the wrong places. But hey the game made you rich right? That's all that counts. Awaiting cut and paste it's alpha comment and then incoming ban from nazi admins for not bowing before the almighty garry. Seriously, spend one week just making the game a game and add the rest in after.) I wish the thread that was a response to was still up because the op made alot of valid points.

Uh, yeah, about that guy. [QUOTE]Oh and fucking ban me. Like I could care; I see your "community managers" banning people constantly for the most trivial shit that every other gaming company has to deal with 100 fold because they actually retain a lot of their player base not just disappoint them. This forum is a GRAVEYARD where your player base comes to die in frustration. [highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Wants to be banned" - postal))[/highlight][/QUOTE] That guy wasn't here to engage in legitimate constructive feedback. He was here to bitch and shit up the forum. [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1435171"]The thread still exists in Drop Dead Thread, the thread graveyard subforum where all shit threads and spam go.[/URL] Learn how to use the event log (Events at the top of EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE). garry's exact comment was, [QUOTE=garry;46405140]"Hey Rust isn't finished, here's what I think they should do: Finish Rust" Thanks for the useful feedback.[/QUOTE] And that's pretty much an accurate summary of the guy's rant.

[URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1354158&p=43671137&viewfull=1#post43671137"]the ban system works great[/URL] [editline]4th November 2014[/editline] also people who just don't fucking get it and think they know what they're talking about get banned when they flame and troll, not for criticizing the game.

[QUOTE]Uh, yeah, about that guy. Oh and fucking ban me. Like I could care; I see your "community managers" banning people constantly for the most trivial shit that every other gaming company has to deal with 100 fold because they actually retain a lot of their player base not just disappoint them. This forum is a GRAVEYARD where your player base comes to die in frustration. (User was permabanned for this post ("Wants to be banned" - postal)) That guy wasn't here to engage in legitimate constructive feedback. He was here to bitch and shit up the forum. The thread still exists in Drop Dead Thread, the thread graveyard subforum where all shit threads and spam go. Learn how to use the event log (Events at the top of EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE). [/QUOTE] Yeah I guess I should learn how to use the event log. Besides that, do you have anything constructive to say yourself? Balance changes should not be that difficult. I thought the reason they completely rewrote the game from scratch was to make it easier to make changes? Shouldn't it be a simple matter of just changing a number value making it so 3 stone nodes don't give you enough metal to make a massive fortress and tons of ammo? Also wouldn't it make sense that you would just have to change another number to make more of the stone nodes to spawn so they aren't so rare? I realize fixing the wall glitching and the netcode is probably a bit trickier, but to make the game actually bearable and worth putting any time whatsoever in to it needs to be done. These things should be priorities. How was that guy not here to make legitimate feedback? He was voicing his opinion on facepunch's priorities or lack there of which has been done by tons of people lately. He and many others are simply saying focus on just balancing the gameplay first then add stupid shit like caves, satelites and monorails after.

[QUOTE=donkeypunch;46405335]Yeah I guess I should learn how to use the event log. Besides that, do you have anything constructive to say yourself? Balance changes should not be that difficult. I thought the reason they completely rewrote the game from scratch was to make it easier to make changes? Shouldn't it be a simple matter of just changing a number value making it so 3 stone nodes don't give you enough metal to make a massive fortress and tons of ammo? Also wouldn't it make sense that you would just have to change another number to make more of the stone nodes to spawn so they aren't so rare? I realize fixing the wall glitching and the netcode is probably a bit trickier, but to make the game actually bearable and worth putting any time whatsoever in to it needs to be done. These things should be priorities. How was that guy not here to make legitimate feedback? He was voicing his opinion on facepunch's priorities or lack there of which has been done by tons of people lately. He and many others are simply saying focus on just balancing the gameplay first then add stupid shit like caves, satelites and monorails after.[/QUOTE] Every minute spent making little tweaks like that is a minute not spent actually advancing the state of the game forward. You're in an alpha, and I know you've heard that before [B]but it's the truth[/B] and it actually means something. It means inconvenience and frustration and stop whining. The game is rough and unfinished, and this will certainly change over time, but balance is a future to-do item, not the top concern right now. Simply put, having fun [B]right now[/B] is not the devs' top priority, and it shouldn't be. Getting a solid foundation built [B]is[/B], and that'll never happen if they listen and kowtow to every complaining yahoo who comes in here and spews a five-paragraph list of changes they want made. Look what happened to Notch and Minecraft. The game became way too huge and too popular too early, and Notch wasn't even able to finish the game himself because every change was met with a huge backlash from [B]some[/B] portion of the community, and if changes were made to satisfy that portion of the community, a [B]different[/B] segment of players would start screaming. He quit working on Minecraft because he could not stand to code in a spotlight watched by millions of people who would never be happy no matter what he did, and he just sold off Mojang to Microsoft altogether and is/will be a completely independent, one-man developer again without millions of kids judging him and demanding from him. The stress of running Minecraft ruined his marriage, as well. The modding community more or less took over development of Minecraft from Mojang, as well. Most people now playing Minecraft on PC are not playing Minecraft the way Mojang created it, and the actual core updates to Minecraft itself became too slow and unsatisfying. Your current expectations are actually too high, whether you choose to believe it or not.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;46405377]Every minute spent making little tweaks like that is a minute not spent actually advancing the state of the game forward. You're in an alpha, and I know you've heard that before [B]but it's the truth[/B] and it actually means something. It means inconvenience and frustration and stop whining. The game is rough and unfinished, and this will certainly change over time, but balance is a future to-do item, not the top concern right now. Simply put, having fun [B]right now[/B] is not the devs' top priority, and it shouldn't be. Getting a solid foundation built [B]is[/B], and that'll never happen if they listen and kowtow to every complaining yahoo who comes in here and spews a five-paragraph list of changes they want made. Look what happened to Notch and Minecraft. The game became way too huge and too popular too early, and Notch wasn't even able to finish the game himself because every change was met with a huge backlash from [B]some[/B] portion of the community, and if changes were made to satisfy that portion of the community, a [B]different[/B] segment of players would start screaming. He quit working on Minecraft because he could not stand to code in a spotlight watched by millions of people who would never be happy no matter what he did, and he just sold off Mojang to Microsoft altogether and is/will be a completely independent, one-man developer again without millions of kids judging him and demanding from him. The stress of running Minecraft ruined his marriage, as well. The modding community more or less took over development of Minecraft from Mojang, as well. Most people now playing Minecraft on PC are not playing Minecraft the way Mojang created it, and the actual core updates to Minecraft itself became too slow and unsatisfying. Your current expectations are actually too high, whether you choose to believe it or not.[/QUOTE] God I love threads like these, Nothing brightens my day like waking up getting a cup of coffee and reading a facepunch thread about a nameless software developer. Thanks for clearing the shit post I really like the modding community on minecraft, I just disagree with the prices it makes in terms of people selling ''gamemodes'', But to each their own. (If only these kids remembered the original minecraft the complaints would be just as outrageous.) I really hope the workshop and rust modding comes around if ever, I would love to have a custom gui at the very least the current one is pretty rough on my IPS Panel. As for the development stuff I really like garry's approach on everything.

also, how the hell do you even treat a video game like other software anyways yeah its software but the difference is that [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software"]software[/URL] is all about the program, not the experience. With a video game you're focusing 100% of your resources and 100% of everything on the experience the user has, not what the user gets. Video games are a luxury item, not a tool. I mean yeah on a project level its (about) the same thing but art assets and programming assets are two [B]TOTALLY[/B] separate entities. People who are complaining about how there are frog boots in the game... just don't get it. YEAH As if Garry is [I]personally [/I]spending a huge amount of time on that and its not an artist doing it. Artists are not programmers, and programmers are not artists. The only programmer/artist you'll see in games is the level designer, or people who are multi-talented.

[QUOTE=Boseknows;46404476]For example, we have entirely new systems for constructing buildings and locking doors, but we don't yet have more fundamental things like workbenches that allow for quicker or expanded crafting. We have newly modeled rad suits, but they are worthless because defensive modifiers for clothing have yet to be implemented. We have the ability to loot sleepers and corpses, but we don't yet have a pickaxe that gathers resources more efficiently than a hatchet. We have the added status of hydration, but no ability to drink anything as of yet.[/QUOTE] Agree with all this (although stone hatchet a.k.a 'Used To Gather Resources' is kinda OP on trees and rocks already .. wouldn't bother with wood piles) [QUOTE=Boseknows;46404476]These are just a few examples which demonstrate disordered priorities and a lack of direction.[/QUOTE] Do not agree with this conclusion. Judging by Trello and the weekly Dev blogs I think it's coming along great, and I'd be careful about confusing player priorities with game dev priorities. These are rarely, if ever, the same thing. Rust is just not at a particularly playable stage at this point in time (Feb 2015 is my prediction on when it might be really worth logging on again)

i wish Rust was the graphics of the recent version, but the game play of legacy. with over 2600 hours in legacy, and a few hours every week in the new version, i can honestly say that to me, the concept of Rust is great, but the new version feels weird, like its gone away too much from what Rust should/could be.

[QUOTE=jaccerz;46406103]i wish Rust was the graphics of the recent version, but the game play of legacy. with over 2600 hours in legacy, and a few hours every week in the new version, i can honestly say that to me, the concept of Rust is great, but the new version feels weird, like its gone away too much from what Rust should/could be.[/QUOTE] I am in the same boat, 1200 hours of rust and very few in experimental. I think people are too harsh on FP and garry though.. Let them work on it and quit bitching. I mean they are trying really hard to make something good and most people just shit on them. I actually feel for them....

im not shitting on them. i love this game, helps me with my anger management lololol but no seriously, i really cant wait to see how the new version goes once its done, and thats partly why im not playing much of it right now, because when i make the change over, i wanna be able to just stick to the one version.

[QUOTE=donkeypunch;46405262]Hey garry, there have been about 10 threads just like this in the last 2 days. Maybe instead of making snarky bullshit comments you should listen since the player base has dropped significantly. Instead of dicking around with frog boots and textures. This is a huge problem with this studio. I remember almost a year ago when the aoe death hack was running amuck in every server. The next dev update didn't even mention it. It talked about how they made the night sky look better.[/QUOTE] Man, I though this thread was done, but then this happened... Number one, and I already addressed this earlier in the thread, you cannot take posts like the "10 threads just like this in the last 2 days" as the general pulse of the community. It is common fact that the internet is full of trolls and whiners. You have to have a better metric of how things are being received. [URL="http://steamcharts.com/app/252490#6m"]Number two[/URL], it is no shocker that people waiting on development are getting tired of waiting. They go play other games. The community has been on a steady decline. That may seem bad to you, but it's really not that horrible. Player counts have risen over the last few weekends.

My question is why are there so few PC games available since there are a million fucking know it all game devlopers on this forum telling facepunch how to do their job on their project! Shouldnt you brilliant devs be off makng your own better game and getting rich?

[QUOTE=Prescription;46399961]Let me preface with a couple things... Here is where Facepunch is failing: First, what is Facepunch's desired outcome? Is it to create a functional game that people will enjoy? If so, then why are they spending time adding bucket helmets, boots that look like frogs.. etc.. and not addressing the basic functionality of the game. Software development cannot be open-ended. There has to be a desired date of completion... in this context "completion" does not mean that all development is over... it just means that there is a basic game that is fully functional. There has to be a stable/solid product... that can then be upgraded. Seems facepunch is going for a Ferrari out of the gate. Give people the basic's, and then work on variations of cloths, weapons, tools, after you have refined all of the other major components needed to make the game functional.[/QUOTE] As i said earlier in this thread the people adding the bucket helmets, boots etc are not the code writers. You're basically asking them to sit idle and do nothing while garry and the coders work out the bugs with the code and the performance issues. You say they need to work towards a stable/solid project. how do you explain the latest updates that was almost completely performance/stable based improvements? Networking Tweaks, Audio Fixes, Coherent UI Updates, Wall Glitching, Performance, LERP Fixes, Those are all headings for changes made in the last update and they all work around exactly what you're complaining they aren't doing. You have made it very clear you don't follow their development process or what they have been doing the last few months but would rather just complain about what you don't have and what you don't know due to your lack of active participation in the alpha. [editline]4th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=utilitron;46406246]Man, I though this thread was done, but then this happened... Number one, and I already addressed this earlier in the thread, you cannot take posts like the "10 threads just like this in the last 2 days" as the general pulse of the community. It is common fact that the internet is full of trolls and whiners. You have to have a better metric of how things are being received. [URL="http://steamcharts.com/app/252490#6m"]Number two[/URL], it is no shocker that people waiting on development are getting tired of waiting. They go play other games. The community has been on a steady decline. That may seem bad to you, but it's really not that horrible. Player counts have risen over the last few weekends.[/QUOTE] Agreed, I think rust has been one of the more successful purchase your way into alpha games going around. I also purchased my way into "The Forest" alpha and I played it for like maybe 8 hours total and haven't gone back. This alpha has had a ton of participation and continued participation over a good period of time. I think there was definitely a significant drop off between when they stopped supporting legacy and started on the experimental. I think people have got their fun out of the current game state and it won't be until a bit later in experimental that people will want to invest a lot of time into this game again.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;46405377] Simply put, having fun [B]right now[/B] is not the devs' top priority, and it shouldn't be. Getting a solid foundation built [B]is[/B], and that'll never happen if they listen and kowtow to every complaining yahoo who comes in here and spews a five-paragraph list of changes they want made.[/QUOTE] Suggestions are not demands. Criticism is not necessarily whining. You don't even try to understand the criticism, you just hit the 'it's an alpha, stop whining' button. [QUOTE=elixwhitetail;46405377] Look what happened to Notch and Minecraft. The game became way too huge and too popular too early, and Notch wasn't even able to finish the game himself because every change was met with a huge backlash from [B]some[/B] portion of the community, and if changes were made to satisfy that portion of the community, a [B]different[/B] segment of players would start screaming. He quit working on Minecraft because he could not stand to code in a spotlight watched by millions of people who would never be happy no matter what he did, and he just sold off Mojang to Microsoft altogether and is/will be a completely independent, one-man developer again without millions of kids judging him and demanding from him. The stress of running Minecraft ruined his marriage, as well. [/QUOTE] This might be the silliest characterization of events I've read yet. Notch cashed out. He was an ok developer with a great concept for a game. He took it to where it could go, hired more competent folks to continue development, and then eventually cashed out with a huge payday. The implication that the community was the cause of his frustration or his divorce is completely and utterly ridiculous. You give him too little credit. [QUOTE=elixwhitetail;46405377]Your current expectations are actually too high, whether you choose to believe it or not.[/QUOTE] Most of the comments I've seen have had their expectations set by legacy. You might claim those expectations are too high, but they seem pretty reasonable to me.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;46405377]Every minute spent making little tweaks like that is a minute not spent actually advancing the state of the game forward. You're in an alpha, and I know you've heard that before [B]but it's the truth[/B] and it actually means something. It means inconvenience and frustration and stop whining. The game is rough and unfinished, and this will certainly change over time, but balance is a future to-do item, not the top concern right now. Simply put, having fun [B]right now[/B] is not the devs' top priority, and it shouldn't be. Getting a solid foundation built [B]is[/B], and that'll never happen if they listen and kowtow to every complaining yahoo who comes in here and spews a five-paragraph list of changes they want made. Look what happened to Notch and Minecraft. The game became way too huge and too popular too early, and Notch wasn't even able to finish the game himself because every change was met with a huge backlash from [B]some[/B] portion of the community, and if changes were made to satisfy that portion of the community, a [B]different[/B] segment of players would start screaming. He quit working on Minecraft because he could not stand to code in a spotlight watched by millions of people who would never be happy no matter what he did, and he just sold off Mojang to Microsoft altogether and is/will be a completely independent, one-man developer again without millions of kids judging him and demanding from him. The stress of running Minecraft ruined his marriage, as well. The modding community more or less took over development of Minecraft from Mojang, as well. Most people now playing Minecraft on PC are not playing Minecraft the way Mojang created it, and the actual core updates to Minecraft itself became too slow and unsatisfying. Your current expectations are actually too high, whether you choose to believe it or not.[/QUOTE] I honestly want to see if anyone has a proper response to that. What I just read here was about the most real thing I have read in quite some time.

I think the OP was a little to much "you are doing this wrong". There are some valid points though regarding a more structured process. The new version is not to baseline. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. Rust is an awesome game, and as another poster states, is it really a high expectation to want the current version as good as legacy? With a little more emphasis on cleaning up the content, would baseline really be that far off? Anyway, its sad that people who bring idea's to the table get flamed and trolled.

[QUOTE=BleedingGreen;46407041]I think the OP was a little to much "you are doing this wrong". There are some valid points though regarding a more structured process. The new version is not to baseline. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. Rust is an awesome game, and as another poster states, is it really a high expectation to want the current version as good as legacy? With a little more emphasis on cleaning up the content, would baseline really be that far off? Anyway, its sad that people who bring idea's to the table get flamed and trolled.[/QUOTE] I don't think anyone has stated they are at baseline. I don't even think Garry himself has said they are at baseline.

[QUOTE=Leon Garoux;46406814]I honestly want to see if anyone has a proper response to that. What I just read here was about the most real thing I have read in quite some time.[/QUOTE] Elix pontificating using mischaracterizations and exaggerations -- the most real thing you have read in quite some time? Interesting. Let's just take on example: " Notch wasn't even able to finish the game himself because every change was met with a huge backlash from some portion of the community" Minecraft was released as 1.0 in Nov of 2011. Not coincidentally, that is when Notch stepped down as lead developer. He got the game to the 1.0 finish line and stepped away. In his blog post, he didn't make one single comment about the community. Elix puts way too much stock in the community's ability to affect a game developer, positively or negatively. I suspect that's his way of reinforcing his own self-importance as it relates to Rust and participating in community discussions. Another example: "Getting a solid foundation built is, and that'll never happen if they listen and kowtow to every complaining yahoo who comes in here and spews a five-paragraph list of changes they want made."' Is anyone really worried that Garry will get distracted by 'every complaining yahoo' who comes here and posts some criticism? Is this a real issue? Does he have so little faith in Garry, that if Elix wasn't here to beat back everyone with criticism, that development would suddenly grind to a halt because Garry was going to kowtow? Has this ever been an issue in the past that should cause concern in the future? No, no, a million times no. I'm not perfect. Garry's not perfect. Forum posters aren't perfect. If the only feedback that was worthy of discussion was perfectly written, perfectly expressed feedback, and all else should just be immediately thrown into the 'it's an alpha trash bin', these forums would be a pretty quiet and boring place to discuss Rust.

[QUOTE=Dreldan;46407319]I don't think anyone has stated they are at baseline. I don't even think Garry himself has said they are at baseline.[/QUOTE] Then why are they wasting time on implementing extra stuff, and not getting it to baseline. You seem to think that artists etc. can't be working future stuff, while programmers refine current content. You don't have to implement something just because you have gotten it ready. You can wait to integrate, you alluded several times in this thread to the fact that artists are not going to just stop doing what they do to help bring it to baseline. No one says they should or have to. I think it speaks to your lack of understanding.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_(software_development)"]Scrum[/URL] works better for small dev groups. I always felt this was kind of close to what Garry was following.

[QUOTE=DeadRisen;46407472][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_(software_development)"]Scrum[/URL] works better for small dev groups. I always felt this was kind of close to what Garry was following.[/QUOTE] "a flexible, holistic product development strategy where a development team works as a unit to [B]reach a common goal[/B]"

[QUOTE=StryfeKhaos;46407339]Elix pontificating using mischaracterizations and exaggerations -- the most real thing you have read in quite some time? Interesting. Let's just take on example: " Notch wasn't even able to finish the game himself because every change was met with a huge backlash from some portion of the community" Minecraft was released as 1.0 in Nov of 2011. Not coincidentally, that is when Notch stepped down as lead developer. He got the game to the 1.0 finish line and stepped away. In his blog post, he didn't make one single comment about the community. Elix puts way too much stock in the community's ability to affect a game developer, positively or negatively. I suspect that's his way of reinforcing his own self-importance as it relates to Rust and participating in community discussions. Another example: "Getting a solid foundation built is, and that'll never happen if they listen and kowtow to every complaining yahoo who comes in here and spews a five-paragraph list of changes they want made."' Is anyone really worried that Garry will get distracted by 'every complaining yahoo' who comes here and posts some criticism? Is this a real issue? Does he have so little faith in Garry, that if Elix wasn't here to beat back everyone with criticism, that development would suddenly grind to a halt because Garry was going to kowtow? Has this ever been an issue in the past that should cause concern in the future? No, no, a million times no. I'm not perfect. Garry's not perfect. Forum posters aren't perfect. If the only feedback that was worthy of discussion was perfectly written, perfectly expressed feedback, and all else should just be immediately thrown into the 'it's an alpha trash bin', these forums would be a pretty quiet and boring place to discuss Rust.[/QUOTE] Your entire response is trivialized through your use of vitriol and bitterness. Not sure what your beef is with Elix, but I am not going to pretend to understand it, and I will prefer to stay out of it.

Garry is more of a 'make it up as he goes' kind of 'architect'. It'd be a hard thing to sell to a publisher. It's a good thing in this case, because if he was dependent on publisher investment, we wouldn't have Rust. Rust, like Minecraft, is a great concept that is hard to devise an 'end game' for. I'm sure Garry has long term goals, but the ones we hear about are more directional and less concrete. I am convinced this is part of the source of the conflict we see here in the forums. Traditional game development starts (or at least figures out pretty quickly) with some kind of end game and goals are defined and aligned towards that. Garry and Facepunch, IMO, started with a great concept and are trying to figure out as they go to some extent what the bigger picture is as they go. People don't see a well defined direction and get impatient or frustrated. I understand it. Some of us miss the thousands of people who were playing legacy and the promise legacy had. While experimenting with new concepts, it seems (whether an accurate perception or not, it's hard to measure) that getting back to that same level has gone slower due to what some would consider distractions, but Facepunch would consider improvements. I think the community could use a little patience, both with Facepunch and with the parts of the community that wish experimental was back to legacy in terms of the number of players, PvP, playability, etc.