Suggestion: player killing penalties - Rust

[QUOTE=The BeastKing;43227701] how it was meant to be played [/QUOTE] How do you know the only way that is game can be played?

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;43227610][URL="http://store.steampowered.com/app/252490/"]Remember, everyone:[/URL] [B]About the Game[/B] The only aim in Rust is to survive. To do this you will need to overcome struggles such as hunger, thirst and cold. Build a fire. Build a shelter. Kill animals for meat. Protect yourself from other players. Create alliances with other players and together form a town. Whatever it takes to survive.[/QUOTE] But is respawning with all your cache of stuff continually really "surviving"? At some point the game just becomes "protect my stuff as long as I can". Creating a moral system that removes some of this security would sway some to remain on a peaceful path.

[QUOTE=hybridPanda;43227709] Here how about this. What about when you shot a gun at a player unprovoked you take a hit in a humanity pool like in dayz. IF you loose enough points you become a bandit. Your clothes change, or something along those lines. If you shoot at a bandit unprovoked then you gain some humanity. It does not have to change your clothes maybe just the style of the clothes, or a logo on the clothes. Maybe it changes is a large logo on the front of your shirt/pants or a colored band on your arm/legs. That way we could still have unique clothing in the future. Discuss.[/QUOTE] This is a mechanic that I could go for, but it should be subtle, not "kill one person, you become bandit".

You shouldn't be punished for engaging in PvP, it's a huge part of the game (if you really don't like that, feel free to play on a non-pvp server). However, I do think the amount of people killing others on sight (newspawns included) might be a little bit over the top right now... The best way to fix that - in my opinion - would be to make either weapons extremely hard to obtain/craft, or make bullets really scarce and valuable so that they're not really worth using on your random newspawn (or both, why not!). I think that every single bullet being fired from a weapon need to be felt by the shooter, he need to /feel/ like he's shooting out something valuable; that way, every kill has to be somewhat thought out. I know there's a update right now that will make bullets harder to craft, but I assure you that the mindless killing on sight will not be reduced until bullet cost is increased dramaticly; imho the cost needs to be brutal. ps. the worse a weapon is, the cheaper bullets would be, it would kind of balance everything out a little, and maybe those who feel like killing on sight would go out and use bow and arrows instead (giving people they "hunt" a chance to escape atleast).

[QUOTE=The BeastKing;43227759]Panda, again (though it's a well thought out idea), that would take away from the realism of the game. In reality, if it were the apocalypse (or whatever) bad guys would not walk around wearing a certain logo or type of shirt where you could be like: "Oh! That guy is a bandit." I do like the idea of humanity loss for unprovoked attacks, though.[/QUOTE] Thank you for an actual response. Yeah in real life people come with a reputation. I guess having a visual marker is not always the case in real life. But this is a game. I can't really figure out any other way of conveying that reputation to others, can you?

[QUOTE=utilitron;43227782]But is respawning with all your cache of stuff continually really "surviving"? At some point the game just becomes "protect my stuff as long as I can". Creating a moral system that removes some of this security would sway some to remain on a peaceful path.[/QUOTE] Welcome to alpha; the game [I]isn't even finished yet[/I]. You're complaining about an unfinished game feeling incomplete. Do you think the devs really are going to just bugfix and package up and ship Rust as it plays right now? Plenty more is coming, it just takes time, and until it arrives, you're going to have to put up with what's available.

[QUOTE=The BeastKing;43227759]Panda, again (though it's a well thought out idea), that would take away from the realism of the game. In reality, if it were the apocalypse (or whatever) bad guys would not walk around wearing a certain logo or type of shirt where you could be like: "Oh! That guy is a bandit." I do like the idea of humanity loss for unprovoked attacks, though.[/QUOTE] I don't know about that... it's like an analogue for gang signs and colors. Obviously it's a simplistic form, but it's a start and not too much of a stretch, i think.

[QUOTE=SKOLLIE;43227803]You shouldn't be punished for engaging in PvP, it's a huge part of the game (if you really don't like that, feel free to play on a non-pvp server). However, I do think the amount of people killing others on sight (newspawns included) might be a little bit over the top right now... The best way to fix that - in my opinion - would be to make either weapons extremely hard to obtain/craft, or make bullets really scarce and valuable so that they're not really worth using on your random newspawn (or both, why not!). I think that every single bullet being fired from a weapon need to be felt by the shooter, he need to /feel/ like he's shooting out something valuable; that way, every kill has to be somewhat thought out. I know there's a update right now that will make bullets harder to craft, but I assure you that the mindless killing on sight will not be reduced until bullet cost is increased dramaticly; imho the cost needs to be brutal. ps. the worse a weapon is, the cheaper bullets would be, it would kind of balance everything out a little, and maybe those who feel like killing on sight would go out and use bow and arrows instead (giving people they "hunt" a chance to escape atleast).[/QUOTE] This is almost exactly how I feel. The player should feel every bullet that they shoot is an amazing way to put it. I really think that this game would be lacking without the pvp (nothing agains people who don't pvp, it's just not my cup of tea) but the shoot on sight I think is over the top. I dont really think that the types of guns/ or the damage are the problem I think that the problem is that people can run around and kill everyone on sight with no negatives.

You want to know why people kill new spawns? You don't know if they actually are. I can't tell you how many times I've been killed by a naked guy who decided to pull out an m4 out of his ass and blow me away when I started walking away. This game rewards dickish behavior, either you adapt to it and survive or you get used to your screen fading to black.

[QUOTE=Sievers808;43227846]I don't know about that... it's like an analogue for gang signs and colors. Obviously it's a simplistic form, but it's a start and not too much of a stretch, i think.[/QUOTE] You know what would be cool, Is if your could join an actual gang in game. The gang members would all get the same bandana on their arms. The gang leader could use some simple editor to make a custom emblem and color. There would have to be some perks in being in the same gang otherwise no one would do it. Maybe something like being able to open each other's door? Or if there are traps added, gang members will not trigger their own gang's traps. Trading, maybe increased name render distance on gang members. Nothing too drastic. [editline]18th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Chikun;43227883]You want to know why people kill new spawns? You don't know if they actually are. I can't tell you how many times I've been killed by a naked guy who decided to pull out an m4 out of his ass and blow me away when I started walking away. This game rewards dickish behavior, either you adapt to it and survive or you get used to your screen fading to black.[/QUOTE] Thats why we are trying to come up with ways to discourage dickish behavior without forcing players to play a certain way. Right now the game kinda give you a disadvantage if you are not a dick. EDIT: Am I the only one with two pages for this thread. But when I click on next page it bring me back here?

[QUOTE=hybridPanda;43227931]You know what would be cool, Is if your could join an actual gang in game. The gang members would all get the same bandana on their arms. The gang leader could use some simple editor to make a custom emblem and color. There would have to be some perks in being in the same gang otherwise no one would do it. Maybe something like being able to open each other's door? Or if there are traps added, gang members will not trigger their own gang's traps. Trading, maybe increased name render distance on gang members. Nothing too drastic. [/QUOTE] This. Granted, this would be quite an undertaking, but people already form groups, whether to raid or to protect bambis, it would be amazing to actually SHOW a group affiliation. In fact, one could assume that this may cut down on spawn killing and KOS, with people opting to group up against a terrorizing bandit clan rather than taking it out on naked people with rocks. (Obviously there will ALWAYS be people killing bambis, but hey, it's a start.)

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;43227683]That really sounds like you're overcomplicating the issue severely because you don't like the fact that an [I]alpha game[/I] isn't balanced. Balance will come with time. Making the game complicated and adding PK rules that will totally be abused and exploited is not the solution.[/QUOTE] Please don't make assumptions about why I post. I know an alpha isn't balanced. In fact I wrote an entire post explaining what an alpha is and how it is used in a development cycle. As a programmer and software designer, I look for solutions to complex problems every day. I see an issue, and it isn't just this game. Any game that incorporates PvP will have issues with rampant murders. The issue us morals. In the real world there are many reasons not to just murder everyone. In game, not so much. By incorporating a penalty system, you cause players to make a more moral decision.

By incorporating a penalty system, you [I]force players to behave a specific way[/I]. The PvE elements at the moment are practically nonexistent, so there is nothing to temper or distract from rampant PVP. The rest of the game will fill out in time, and it doesn't need artificial and exploitable PK penalties.

[QUOTE=hybridPanda;43227614]This is not a valid solution for the problem. I don't think most people want to remove pvp in general. That is not fun. But I don think that there needs to be something that makes people hesitate to kill someone on sight. He is trying to come up with solutions to that. Why not actually help?[/QUOTE] Flagging someone as an asshole is one thing, but putting them in "time out" because they acted like one is another. This is, afterall, a game of survival and being at the top of the food chain. If you can't hack that then find some people with a little humanity and team up.

[QUOTE=hybridPanda;43227533]Right now the game is unbalanced because there is no reason not to shoot everyone you see.[/QUOTE] Interesting that you should use the word "unbalanced". Are you saying people who are better at the game than you have an unfair advantage?

[QUOTE=Zosimos;43228306]Flagging someone as an asshole is one thing, but putting them in "time out" because they acted like one is another. This is, afterall, a game of survival and being at the top of the food chain. If you can't hack that then find some people with a little humanity and team up.[/QUOTE] My post was not in reply to the idea or a jail. I personally don't think that is the currect way to go about that.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;43228075]By incorporating a penalty system, you [I]force players to behave a specific way[/I]. The PvE elements at the moment are practically nonexistent, so there is nothing to temper or distract from rampant PVP. The rest of the game will fill out in time, and it doesn't need artificial and exploitable PK penalties.[/QUOTE] Look at games like Ultima Online. PvE did nothing to curb PvP. In fact the greater the reward from a NPC, the greater the risk for PvP raid. Drastic measures were taken far too late to deal with the issues, and decimated the player base. How exactly is a aggro flag exploitable? Unless you missed the key word "attack" in the op. If you are the aggressor there would be a penalty. You can argue what ifs all you want, but they are all easily resolvable. You mentioned artificial penalties, please tell me what natural penalties? It is easier to be hyperbolically critical than to be constructively critical, but please try.

Dude you just went full retard

[QUOTE=hybridPanda;43227931]You know what would be cool, Is if your could join an actual gang in game. The gang members would all get the same bandana on their arms. The gang leader could use some simple editor to make a custom emblem and color. There would have to be some perks in being in the same gang otherwise no one would do it. Maybe something like being able to open each other's door? Or if there are traps added, gang members will not trigger their own gang's traps. Trading, maybe increased name render distance on gang members. Nothing too drastic. [/QUOTE] Just to let you know they won't be adding any type of gang/clan system into the game. The devs want players to have to option of infiltrating groups or villages. [Quote=garry.tv]So what’s to stop you from going around killing anyone you want and taking their shit and becoming more powerful? Nothing. What’s stopping it from becoming a PVP killfest? You. Our job should be to give the players the tools they need. If you’re sick of getting killed – start a town. Build town walls. Give all the town members red clothes. Put warning signs up outside the town. Set up trip wires and alarms. Watch each others back.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Snapster;43228621]Just to let you know they won't be adding any type of gang/clan system into the game. The devs want players to have to option of infiltrating groups or villages.[/QUOTE] Oh I absolutely agree, I still think you should be able to attack/raid/kill your group members if the mood strikes you, but just having a visual notification of some sort to let you know what group someone (claims) to be a part of would help build some camaraderie, even if it's all in vain. I disagree with group members being automatically granted entry to your doors or being invulnerable to your traps or whatnot... if you want group members to avoid traps just tell them where they are and they'll have to avoid them themselves. And to garry's quote, the only problem with "give all the town members red clothes" is that the best armor (currently) is black, does anyone know if customizable clothing is a planned feature? I've looked thru the trello page put didn't notice anything.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;43227823]Welcome to alpha; the game [I]isn't even finished yet[/I]. You're complaining about an unfinished game feeling incomplete. Do you think the devs really are going to just bugfix and package up and ship Rust as it plays right now? Plenty more is coming, it just takes time, and until it arrives, you're going to have to put up with what's available.[/QUOTE] Except that I am not complaining. I am merely making a suggestion for a solution to an issue that the game will inevitably have. Also your assumption seems to be that I don't li ke pvp, but on the contrary I am an avid pvper. [editline]18th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Teleskop;43228546]Dude you just went full retard[/QUOTE] Thanks for that titillating contribution to the conversation.

Yop, first post here, To be honest i realy dislike your idea, you sound like a victim bullied at school (soz for bad english i'm french) But i'm gonna help you out. Here is an idea : If you kill someone, you get a status, like "sad" with a description "I killed another player, and i feel terribly bad thinking of this" This status would make the survivor a malus of regeneration hp (for exemple ) FOR 15 MINUTE. Yes because puting a player in a jail for a fucking hours, just because he defended his base, is so stupid. I'll explain better : I'm a robber, i rob your house, how will you defend yourself? if you beat me, you get in jail (it's like being ban for 1 hours) just for defending yourself. a lil malus that would be RP, and dissuade player to go back pvp would be a good idea. Oh and, what the point of making big gun, if you can't use it? zombies? lol, go to a non pvp server then. Soz for bad english, as i said i'm french, and i hope this post wasn't too agressive for some here. PS: Jail is a retarded idea, ok, but the guy who said "one hour", is worse.

Sure it sucks when you get killed, but to be honest I like the idea of being in constant danger and having to keep my guard up at all time and build in smart places. It makes the game more interesting for me personally and I see no problem in other players being able to kill you. That's just the way it is. You'll die if you're are not careful enough.

Ok... First Terribly sorry for my awe full English.. IMHO reputation points thing sucks. Why ? Cuz at beginning only strongest survive in harsh environment, so killing others for theyr materials it quite common way to get strongest, but after getting materials, weapon supplies I actually CAN help others as a leader of sorts, but with reputation system I would be a bandit, so no one would even consider asking me for help. Thanks for planing removal of name highlighting it will be even easier to erase your "fouls past", or hide as bandit. It makes game more challenging.. atm game lack a lot.. its in alfa so no wonder.. But I believe in future you It wount be worth "acting naked guy struggling for survival" as it is now, so players wont be tempted to shoot naked guy cuz he MIGHT be player with gun, tools and lot of material not just newb... (making backpack only way to store bigger quantities of loot and weapons always visible on player even when not at hand ect) And other thing will be environment. Making shoot should be risk attracting predators or something like that.. making firearms REALLY expensive so you will think twice before you shoot and make neighbors angry

Sounds like someones never had a gun before.

Here is my take, there should be some sort of penalty for killing someone who is unarmed (e.g. has no weapon in his inventory, besides a rock.) This way, no one will kill brand new spawners who are no hazard to anyone. That being said, the penalty should not be enacted if said unarmed person does decide to attack first. Just a thought for you guys to chew on.

I'm always amused by people who suggest the game have built in stuff like timeout, ugly faces, an enormous red arrow pointing at someone who shot someone else, or something else stupid like that which requires no effort on the victim's part in order to stop people from murdering them. Or, how about an invisible, magic forcefield to protect them from being shot, so they can finish building a gun with which to then shoot people (or, more realistically, just grief people until the immunity wears off). I also like to imagine they think that they thought of whatever their 'suggestion' is all by themselves and that it's also the first time anyone has ever thought of that.

[QUOTE=jonnymad;43229592]Here is my take, there should be some sort of penalty for killing someone who is unarmed (e.g. has no weapon in his inventory, besides a rock.) This way, no one will kill brand new spawners who are no hazard to anyone. That being said, the penalty should not be enacted if said unarmed person does decide to attack first. Just a thought for you guys to chew on.[/QUOTE] People could just go around naked with a rock, and a shotgun in their other hand.

[QUOTE=Nekyz;43229640]People could just go around naked with a rock, and a shotgun in their other hand.[/QUOTE] Unless there would be a way to show the gun on the player, like on his back if he isn't holding the weapon.

[QUOTE=Nekyz;43229640]People could just go around naked with a rock, and a shotgun in their other hand.[/QUOTE] Having a shotgun means that it is in their inventory, there is no way to get around something like this, that's why i suggested it. That way the instant you have a weapon, you are no longer safe. that also being said, sleepers should still be fair game. [editline]18th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Snapster;43229672]Unless there would be a way to show the gun on the player, like on his back if he isn't holding the weapon.[/QUOTE] Yeah, that is what I mean, anything that can be used to kill and/or maim should show up visibly on the person so that people know.