Suggestion: player killing penalties - Rust

[QUOTE=hybridPanda;43231223]Killing is not bad. Lets get that out of the way. Without player killing this game would really be not fun.[/QUOTE] So your saying greifing noobs until they log is not bad and wont hurt the game?

[QUOTE=produno;43231309]So your saying greifing noobs until they log is not bad and wont hurt the game?[/QUOTE] That argument is extremely hard to justify. Considering the map is huge and there are random spawns. Your camp spawns can be spread out. Its your own preparation whether you keep dying or not. As far as I can tell no one camps the actual random spawn points.

[QUOTE=utilitron;43227275]If you attack and kill another player, you simply forfeit the ability to respawn at your camp.[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;EL8e2ujXe8g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL8e2ujXe8g[/video] ___________________________________________________________________________ In this life now you kill or you die. Or you die and you kill. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("video macro reply" - postal))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=produno;43231309]So your saying greifing noobs until they log is not bad and wont hurt the game?[/QUOTE] Stop being such a drama queen. First of all,if you get killed that often when you start out,you're doing something wrong. Secondly,it's not the end of the world if you lose the stuff you start out with. Lastly,the devs are working on measures to make new players less vulnerable (eg random spawn areas).

[QUOTE=Appeljenever;43231395]Stop being such a drama queen. First of all,if you get killed that often when you start out,you're doing something wrong. Secondly,it's not the end of the world if you lose the stuff you start out with. Lastly,the devs are working on measures to make new players less vulnerable (eg random spawn areas).[/QUOTE] Pointing out a problem that exits is being a drama queen? No its being observant, you should try it sometime. I have never said i was one of the ones that gets spawn killed alot either, im just intelligent enough to realise it happens and its a problem. Next time bring your brain to an arguement.

[QUOTE=hybridPanda;43231223] This game will loose the "survival" perspective if it expects players to use morals, judgement and human intuition in a video game. Those things simply cannot exist inside a fabricated world so artificial constructs need to be added to emulate them. It's as simple as that. If the game refuses to add them then it will loose players that want a real survival game. For the people that want that good for them. They will just have less people to fight. Disclamer: I love the game. I really do like playing it I am just trying to have a discussion to see if we can make it even better.[/QUOTE] I see that as a contradiction. You want to play a survival game yet implement a system which limits the dangers people pose (hence making it easier to survive). To me,that'd be dumbing down the game. Again,it's supposed to be brutal (not my interpretation,actual admin words). [editline]19th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=produno;43231420]Pointing out a problem that exits is being a drama queen? No its being observant, you should try it sometime. I have never said i was one of the ones that gets spawn killed alot either, im just intelligent enough to realise it happens and its a problem. Next time bring your brain to an arguement.[/QUOTE] The moment you turn a discussion into a mud slinging heap of nonsense is the moment I'm done arguing with you. I disagree with you,but at least I respectfully disagree.

[QUOTE=hybridPanda;43230405]Without human morals in a video game you need to implement some sort of a system to emulate them. People do not behave the same way as they do in real life as the do in video games. (no matter what your parents might tell you) With that in mind you cannot completely rely on players. Most mature games realize that. And unless rust wants to turn into cod with houses or another dayz clone then they will need to realize this too.[/QUOTE] Technically speaking survival games aren't shoot everything that moves, problem is everyone only cares about killing everything that moves hence the call of duty mentality, shoot everything and fuck the loot. Its the COD mentality is where the game loses its actual meaning of "survival" like I said adding these types of features will not curb it but make players think twice before performing said massacre of every player on the server for no good reason what so ever apart from being a fag that gets high on slaughtering everything. I bet that person would be a GOOD psychopath for the real world at that point. Edit: Oh and also this wouldn't happen all the time if they only would populate the LAST 5.5km of the map now with things needed to remotely survive. THIS is the reason why everyone bitches and complains about griefing, raiding and being killed, the current survivable area is NOT large enough to hold the amount of players everyone wants. Edit2: Only reason why I want these systems is to prevent this from becoming DayZ or WarZ(I.S.S) again.

[QUOTE=Appeljenever;43231479] The moment you turn a discussion into a mud slinging heap of nonsense is the moment I'm done arguing with you. I disagree with you,but at least I respectfully disagree.[/QUOTE] Though you contradict yourself. Calling someone a drama queen is not respectfully disagreeing. I was all up for a placid debate until you turned it sour.

[QUOTE=hybridPanda;43230714]I don't think you understand the concept of an alpha/forums. If you think the game is perfect why are you here?[/QUOTE] Because he want's to be here, every post he's done so far has been relevant and well made. Unlike a lot of Rust users, he tends to think before he posts. [QUOTE=produno;43231077]So they've made a million dollars by enticing people in to buy the game to then say.. fuck it, we have our money, let the greifers run rampant so others cant play. Good business directive, im glad your not in charge.[/QUOTE] Please, before you make another post complaining about the PvP read through this [IMG]http://puu.sh/5R4vK.png[/IMG] The game is a free for all, anything goes, Therefor there is no griefing, only business as usual unless a hack is involved. You are more than welcome to get a refund for your Mom's credit card if you do not like the game.

I wish the above manifesto would be displayed to every new player once they log into the game. Argue all you want about how people should be steered away from pking everyone - it just doesn't .match the devs' vision.

[QUOTE=Michael haxz;43231668] Please, before you make another post complaining about the PvP read through this The game is a free for all, anything goes, Therefor there is no griefing, only business as usual unless a hack is involved. You are more than welcome to get a refund for your Mom's credit card if you do not like the game.[/QUOTE] Wow, you guys are pretty dumb. I am not complaining about the PvP, im not sure how many times i have to state that? I was bringing up the apparent need for certain people to greif others, mainly new spawns or new players. Im not sure how much clearer i can make myself here. Its getting pretty painful now. Maybe you should read up on greifing. Maybe we could have a statement from a dev if killing newly spawned players over and over and applauding abusive play behaviours is an actual game mechanic. If it is then ill keep quiet on the subject and ill apologize to everyone thats had to witness my rants.

[QUOTE=produno;43231806]Wow, you guys are pretty dumb. I am not complaining about the PvP, im not sure how many times i have to state that? I was bringing up the apparent need for certain people to greif others, mainly new spawns or new players. Im not sure how much clearer i can make myself here. Its getting pretty painful now. Maybe you should read up on greifing. Maybe we could have a statement from a dev if killing newly spawned players over and over and applauding abusive play behaviours is an actual game mechanic. If it is then ill keep quiet on the subject and ill apologize to everyone thats had to witness my rants.[/QUOTE] Did you bother reading the manifesto at all? It clearly states there's no intention of driving players towards a certain type of play. There are no morals. You want to hand M4s and Kevlar to every nude guy you see? Fine! You blast said nude guys away as soon as you encounter them? Equally fine! Killing starters doesn't suit my needs so I don't, but I fully support having the ability to do so.

[QUOTE=Appeljenever;43231884]Did you bother reading the manifesto at all? [B]It clearly states there's no intention of driving players towards a certain type of play[/B]. There are no morals. You want to hand M4s and Kevlar to every nude guy you see? Fine! You blast said nude guys away as soon as you encounter them? Equally fine! Killing starters doesn't suit my needs so I don't, but I fully support having the ability to do so.[/QUOTE] But giving the ability to people to do this forces the starters into a certain type of play making the whole thing pointless. Do you not see this? Their is no right or wrong answer here, but if you want freedom you must make certain choices and limitations to allow as much freedom as possible. thats why im offering solutions so the devs can use them to evaluate thier next balance designs. Thats why all the others are offering solutions. You should embrace the solutions and add your own, not jump on peoples backs just because you disagree. I hope that makes sense, i dont mean to get in a flame war.

[QUOTE=produno;43231913]But giving the ability to people to do this forces the starters into a certain type of play making the whole thing pointless. Do you not see this?[/QUOTE] How does it force new players? Yes,they get killed. Alot. Until they get the experience under their belts to survive long enough to be able to defend themselves. I got killed 2 minutes after I first joined a server and many more times afterwards. It takes knowledge,skill and luck to survive in this game. It's what survival is all about.

[QUOTE=Appeljenever;43231956]How does it force new players? Yes,they get killed. Alot. Until they get the experience under their belts to survive long enough to be able to defend themselves. I got killed 2 minutes after I first joined a server and many more times afterwards. It takes knowledge,skill and luck to survive in this game. It's what survival is all about.[/QUOTE] You cant see the contradiction? "It clearly states there's no intention of driving players towards a certain type of play" Yet when someone brings up what they think is a problem and tries to offer solutions everyone spams.. You MUST do this, or you MUST do that. Or go play a PvE server. How does that define the sentence ive shown? [editline]19th December 2013[/editline] Im not saying you are wrong, i fully agree with the whole survival thing and doing what you want is a big appeal to me. But thier HAS to be balance, and people are just offering solutions to help aid in the development of said balance. At least thats what im trying to do but all get is people flaming me for daring to even bring it up, claiming im against all PvP, which is not what im trying to get at.

[QUOTE=produno;43231986]You cant see the contradiction? "It clearly states there's no intention of driving players towards a certain type of play" Yet when someone brings up what they think is a problem and tries to offer solutions everyone spams.. You MUST do this, or you MUST do that. Or go play a PvE server. How does that define the sentence ive shown?[/QUOTE] You are not making any sense. I don't know if it's a language barrier issue or if you fail to grasp the concept of a free for all. You are [B]free[/B] to do [B]anything[/B] you want. If others players' actions cause you grief you either learn what all of us have learned or you accept you'll always be the underdog. New players [B]will[/B] keep on getting killed. Those who learn and adapt will soon find out there are things you can do to increase your chances of survival. Those who fail to grasp the game's mechanic will keep running towards resource (and players) dense areas and they'll remain cannon fodder. You either adapt or you die - it can not be more simple than that. I won't say your views are wrong and I'm right. Everyone is entitled to his opinion. I only like to point out that holding players by the hand goes against the core mechanics as the devs have created them.

[QUOTE=Appeljenever;43232062]You are not making any sense. I don't know if it's a language barrier issue or if you fail to grasp the concept of a free for all. You are [B]free[/B] to do [B]anything[/B] you want. If others players' actions cause you grief you either learn what all of us have learned or you accept you'll always be the underdog. New players [B]will[/B] keep on getting killed. Those who learn and adapt will soon find out there are things you can do to increase your chances of survival. Those who fail to grasp the game's mechanic will keep running towards resource (and players) dense areas and they'll remain cannon fodder. You either adapt or you die - it can not be more simple than that.[/QUOTE] I understand what you are saying, and i agree. But I am argueing a completely different point. We can call it a language barrier, or just agree to disagree.

[QUOTE=produno;43232105]I understand what you are saying, and i agree. But I am argueing a completely different point. We can call it a language barrier, or just agree to disagree.[/QUOTE] That I can agree upon ;)

[QUOTE=hybridPanda;43227533] I think that he is going in the right direction. There needs to be something in the game that makes people hesitate to shoot someone. Right now the game is unbalanced because there is no reason not to shoot everyone you see.[/QUOTE] But the game does offer a more natural solution than one that could be implemented mechanically. One thing that's important to note before elaborating on the point above; When ideas are put into practice as mechanics, as suggested by the OP, into games like these (with full loot particularly) they become heavily exploitable to grief the very players they're supposed to protect. Free roam griefing becomes a lot more intuitive and counter-productive than the original intention, because players lose the ability to police other players. A more natural solution is for the players who get bullied to find and assist each other. Uniting with like-minded individuals is what these games are all about, if you find yourself unable to defend yourself solo. Territory control is a big part of games that allow you to have housing assets. If someone is successfully fending off intruders from their territory, people will leave it alone, or get together with other people to force cohabitation. At the very least confiscate the devices the player(s) are using to maintain the control they have in an area. Linear mechanics *steering* the playerbase in any sort of direction will destroy the sandbox element this game offers.

[QUOTE=TheGovernor;43231377][video=youtube;EL8e2ujXe8g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL8e2ujXe8g[/video][/QUOTE] whine: verb 1. give or make a long, high-pitched complaining cry or sound. complain: verb 1. express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event. Learn English. I am not expressing either annoyance or dissatisfaction. I merely think it is a worthwhile suggestion to look at the possibility of putting in play a system that would add a reason NOT to kill. This post is actually a continuation of a thought from this post: [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1334615&p=43202907#post43202907[/url] [QUOTE=utilitron;43202907]The idea of constant threat is numbed by the idea of infinite respawn. Especially if you respawn where all of your gear is. So players enter into a weird state. Gear is precious, life is not. Finding a solution to this is key.[/QUOTE] To which MaxOfS2D replied: [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1334615&p=43203117#post43203117[/url] [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;43203117]This is a good point that will not see an answer for a while — not as long as progression is defined by the quality of your gear. (we do have ideas that stray away from the notion of equipment quality = progression, but nothing that we can really say - just ideas at this point)[/QUOTE] I see a lot of people have brought up Gary's "story of rust" blog post. [url]http://garry.tv/2013/06/21/the-story-of-rust/[/url] I am newer to this game and hadn't has a chance to read this before. It is interesting, but it is a thought experiment. There is nothing wrong with looking at possible solutions to perceived future problems. I personally think that there will be an issue with getting players to work together without motivation, and there will be an issue curbing rampant murder without penalty. A good read on the subject is Raph Koster [url]http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/pkphilosophy.shtml[/url] [url]http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/laws.shtml[/url] [QUOTE=raph koster] It is always more rewarding to kill other players than to kill whatever the game sets up as a target. A given player of level x can slay multiple creatures of level y. Therefore, killing a player of level x yields ny reward in purely in-game reward terms. Players will therefore always be more rewarding in game terms than monsters of comparable difficulty. However, there's also the fact that players will be more challenging and exciting to fight than monsters no matter what you do. [/QUOTE]

The only thing this game lacks in tackling griefing is an easier way to identify each other. Hopefully somewhere down the line, a more in depth character customization will be implemented (beyond just different sets of clothes) and griefers can be identified. Until that time, being able to see a persons name from a longer distance would be a viable solution. If someone gets the jump on you, it's your fault for not being cautious. If someone lies to you and shoots you in the back, it's your fault for not being cautious. If you get ganged up on and killed, it's your fault for not being cautious. If you are a new player and get killed before you even know what time of day it is, take this as a lesson to be cautious in this game, because the only protection you have is your own wits. @HybridPanda: Morals, judgement, and human intuition [U]can[/U] exist in this game. In fact they will be the only things that will help you survive. The limiting factor is only that so few people know how to excersize this to avoid getting killed. Instead of learning what they did wrong and trying again, they cry that it's unfair that someone outsmarted them and they want someone to punish them. That mechanic is already in the game too. Respawn. Go get a gun, hunt down the person that got you, and either raid their base or blow them away. If you dont have the skill to do this, offer a reward to someone that can. No one wants to take your offer? go cry to a John Wayne and see if he can rustle up a posse to find the bad guy. It all already exists in the game, the people complaining just lack the creativity or motivation to figure it out. And to everyone pointing the CoD finger. Quit your whining. In CoD, the only method of playing the game is killing other people, regardless of what game type you play. In this game you can go to a place where there is no one else, you can develop skills in avoiding danger, use a little wisdom when interacting with others to avoid potential problems, play when during non-peak hours, join servers with lower player counts, play on PvE servers. The problem isn't that PvP is broken in game, or that rampant murderers are ex-CoD elitists. It's that you aren't good at avoiding getting killed in an open world PvP game, where you are in constant danger of being killed. You want tips on how to live an extra day, go read some survivalist boards, they have some excellent tips on avoiding danger.

[QUOTE=utilitron;43232833]whine: verb 1. give or make a long, high-pitched complaining cry or sound. complain: verb 1. express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event. Learn English. I am not expressing either annoyance or dissatisfaction. I merely think it is a worthwhile suggestion to look at the possibility of putting in play a system that would add a reason NOT to kill. [/QUOTE] Verb: whine; 3rd person present: whines; past tense: whined; past participle: whined; gerund or present participle: whining 1. Give or make a long, high-pitched complaining cry or sound. "the dog whined and scratched at the back door" 2. Complain in a feeble or petulant way. "the waitress whined about the increased work" --------------------------------------------- IMO - If you're going to tell someone to "Learn English" and provide definitions right off of a "Define X" search - then post the whole thing and not just the part that makes them look bad. Seriously, wtf. Now I'm entering this whole thread a little late (nearly 4 pages late)... but I'd like to throw in that: Penalizing a player for engaging in player-vs-player combat on a PVP Survival game is completely retarded. If you wish to play without PVP - play on a "PVE - Active Admins!" server... And/OR play on one of the various modded servers that disable sleepers, PVP, and more. [QUOTE=Helk;43215450]I'm sorry you're frustrated but this *is* supposed to be a brutal game. The fact that you get steamrolled by a group of bandits and they take all your stuff might suck, but it's not as concerning as new players who spawn in and type 'hi I'm new how do I open my invent...' before catching a 556 round in the skull. But with that being said I do know what you mean about starting essentially from scratch after a raid and I have a few ideas how to somewhat mitigate that feeling. Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that you are so vulnerable and everything is always on the line is what makes your heart pump when you hear footsteps outside your house. It's a difficult balance, There are ideas being bounced around and rest assured the last thing we want is a game that isn't fun :)[/QUOTE] I'll try to find the post to quote here as well... the one where Garry stated that "This game is not meant for casual players" Shit happens, and penalizing people for it is stupid.