The Elephant in the Game - Rust

[QUOTE=J!NX;43949378]I'm not shitting you I literally just copied and paste that from this thread and the last. You said like, 95% of that.[/QUOTE] So you can't do math? [editline]17th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Wyvyrias;43949395]I'm sure you're enjoying games like (Ex) WarZ, Nether and Day One: Garry's Incident. But feel free to flame about a well made game.[/QUOTE] What? I want to reply, but I feel as if you didn't read anything in these posts. I like the game? The discussion is that I feel they should use the money made to increase production. Everyone else feels they are perfect as it is and that to imply any fault or difference from what Lord Garry states, is simply false and heretical. [editline]17th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;43949378]I'm not shitting you I literally just copied and paste that from this thread and the last. You said like, 95% of that. The real elephant here is you.[/QUOTE] 34 out of the 74 words are not mine. If that is 95% to you, you only prove your stupidity and nobody should ever read anything you say every again with seriousness.

[QUOTE=nuMbx;43949399]So you can't do math? [editline]17th February 2014[/editline] What? I want to reply, but I feel as if you didn't read anything in these posts. I like the game? The discussion is that I feel they should use the money made to increase production. [B]Everyone else feels they are perfect as it is and that to imply any fault or difference from what Lord Garry states, is simply false and heretical.[/B][/QUOTE] literally no one said that, can you read? we simply disagree with you that hiring more people is 100% needed or is 100% beneficial. Also I've said before I think Rust is shit in it's current state and yet I think if they kept current pace they would be fine. [QUOTE=nuMbx;43949399]34 out of the 74 words are not mine. If that is 95% to you, you only prove your stupidity and nobody should ever read anything you say every again with seriousness.[/QUOTE] [url]http://pastebin.com/Yy10HXhh[/url] this fucking guy :v:

[QUOTE=GimmeChicken;43949394]i got your point to use the earned money and invest it into more power. maybe they are doing that, we cant know. rentin new offices/people etc.. but i think its fine at the moment nearly every week some update/fixes. only thing i agree with you is, that in the near future there MUST be a bigger Update. like getting rid of all the placeholders, new map etc.. but they have some time, be a bit patient :rolleye:[/QUOTE] So we agree, but we disagree with how fast the production should be. This isn't and shouldnt' be as big an argument as it is people. I am simply saying I think since Garry made tons of cash and there are tons of people playing, there should be more frequent and fruitful updates. That is common sense. [editline]17th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;43949476]literally no one said that, can you read? we simply disagree with you that hiring more people is 100% needed or is 100% beneficial. Also I've said before I think Rust is shit in it's current state and yet I think if they kept current pace they would be fine. [url]http://pastebin.com/Yy10HXhh[/url] this fucking guy :v:[/QUOTE] Is that your way of saying, "You got me, I put words in your mouth. So what I will do, is link some random post history and information, that nobody is going to pilfer through, in hopes that nobody notices I just completely lied and misrepresented you." ?

[QUOTE=nuMbx;43949487]So we agree, but we disagree with how fast the production should be. This isn't and shouldnt' be as big an argument as it is people. I am simply saying I think since Garry made tons of cash and there are tons of people playing, there should be more frequent and fruitful updates. That is common sense.[/QUOTE] Common ignorance at most - it is like saying if I pay 300 billion dollars then the next part of lord of the rings will be shot in a day. You couldn't miss point harder if you pointed your gun 180 degree away from the target while being in another country all together....

[QUOTE=nuMbx;43949026]It is also "bad" to not hire anybody. Very bad logic guys...[/quote] No, working with the guys you worked before can be a good thing in comparision. [quote]Why does anybody get hired anywhere? Demand. There is a higher demand for output. This is very basic logic people. I am simply stating that the demand has went up. [/quote] You think too basic: [quote]5 people to work on a game for 500 people is fine. 5 people to work on a game for a million people is not. Why? Because the funding went up, this isn't rocket science.[/quote] 5 people to work on a game for a million is fine, too. That's also around the team size of Mojang (in the past) IIRC. Did you ever work in software development? If not please stop. As others already said: With all that people playing Rust Garry was shocked. Right now facepuch is most likely dealing with that (anti-cheat, server issues, ...) so the money they get is the money they need cause they got it. [quote]The critical, honest, and logical thinker puts 2 + 2 together.[/quote] Then please stop telling that the result is 5. [quote]When a guy gets millions of dollars on a game that is in production and a million people are playing it... YOU USE THE MONEY ON THE GAME. I am not saying he isn't. I am not saying he won't. I am asking the question: Why not hire more people to work on the game?[/quote] Because it's not practical in any way. The team does a good job right now, why interrupt it (and as such interrupt anti-cheat, server issues, new content, ...). Also who says the money doesn't go to the devs? Maybe some 8hrs/week guy works 8hrs/day now? Also maybe they are licensing 3rd party software (cheatpunch came a bit too fast, did they really write it 100% from scratch?), rent more official servers to deal with the masses of players, do marketing, ... [quote]All of your answers are on the level of a 5 yr old. If this is not as good as it gets for you guys showcasing your thinking skills, I fear for your future.[/QUOTE] LOL //EDIT: [QUOTE=nuMbx;43949267]Fixing errors and providing larger updates is two different things.[/QUOTE] What about a large bug fix update? And fixing bugs can be way more work than adding new things. All the debugging, profiling, QA, ...

NuMbx, You have clearly never worked in the software development realm or business world, so let me explain a few things to you. 1) Past about 8 each developer added to a medium sized software development project adds a diminishing returns amount of increase of the timeline. This is to say if we take a small team and add 100 new people its likely that only 60% of the value of those 100 will be added and that is assuming all 100 are on par with the original team members, which is rarely the case. Which leads to... 2) The first 2 months of time for a new developer usually is only worth about 50% of their value. Because it takes time for them to get up to date with the project and the way the development team functions. This is often increased in cases of short term mass expansion due to new policies nad procedures needing to be constructed. 3) Running a business is expensive, the rent, equipment, software, and licenses for start ups (which FP is) is a giant initial investment usually totally a few million. 4) Excessive spending after first profits is one of the biggest downfalls in business including in the software industry. Building a sound business budget is paramount to having a successful business. 5) They have a timeline for development, trying to trow money at t to make it shorter is the best way to cause the business to fail and the game to be done more sloppily. Hope you learned something and consider that you might not know everything and that just because we disagree doesn't me we are no nothing sheep.

There needs to be a "Full Retard" post tag, as the "Dumb" tag just doesn't seem to express my feelings to their full extent.

I am surprised people are still responding to him in a serious manner. The guy gives off the impression of one that jerks off when others argue with their outlandish claims. Bet his ego is feeling nice and bloated.

[QUOTE=gaspara112;43949561]NuMbx, You have clearly never worked in the software development realm or business world, so let me explain a few things to you. 1) Past about 8 each developer added to a medium sized software development project adds a diminishing returns amount of increase of the timeline. This is to say if we take a small team and add 100 new people its likely that only 60% of the value of those 100 will be added and that is assuming all 100 are on par with the original team members, which is rarely the case. Which leads to... 2) The first 2 months of time for a new developer usually is only worth about 50% of their value. Because it takes time for them to get up to date with the project and the way the development team functions. This is often increased in cases of short term mass expansion due to new policies nad procedures needing to be constructed. 3) Running a business is expensive, the rent, equipment, software, and licenses for start ups (which FP is) is a giant initial investment usually totally a few million. 4) Excessive spending after first profits is one of the biggest downfalls in business including in the software industry. Building a sound business budget is paramount to having a successful business. 5) They have a timeline for development, trying to trow money at t to make it shorter is the best way to cause the business to fail and the game to be done more sloppily. Hope you learned something and consider that you might not know everything and that just because we disagree doesn't me we are no nothing sheep.[/QUOTE] I can see what you are saying. I guess I may have to high of expectations for them already. They shot out like a rocket and the game is so good, maybe I have too high of expectations. I do believe they could keep the community informed, possibly giving us insight into the timeline for development, like you stated. You are right, I have no idea what all this would entail, I am not a developer. While I may have over simplified everything, to the point of stupidity, I feel like there is a basic truth to what I am trying to say. There should be some type of increase seen in production of the game. It just may not be on a level that I am expecting. Certainly it isn't as if they need to suit the game to me or anybody else for that matter anyway. I suppose I let my own selfish desires lead me to post in emotion rather than knowledge when it comes to the depths of the issues, I am sure it is more difficult to do than to simply throw money at it. You are right, throwing money at this won't make it a better game. Disagreeing is one thing, people on here for the most part are not giving intellectual arguments, such as yours. They are just being fan boy's to the topic. I have been online for years and it is the trend for the mass of people to take up the same ideology without thoroughly thinking through why. You obviously know why you hold your position and honestly you have persuaded me to chill out and let Garry do what he is doing. This subject is way more in depth than it may appear to an outsider. I don't wish Garry to make stupid business decisions or put the game in detriment for no reason. If though, there isn't noticeable increase in game production within a reasonable amount of time, you can count on a decrease in interest. It is hard to have an even keel mindset here. To both enjoy the game, want production, and the see the development side of things. That is why it is important to communicate as much as possible what is being done. When you give the community insight and hands on the game this early, it becomes more of their concern and desire to see it through to completion. Everybody has their opinions, as long as you can state it reasonably, I don't have a problem with it. I think you have persuaded me allow for more time before I reserve judgment towards him not doing anything. I only wish more people where as thorough or straight forward without childishness as you were in your response. I believe there is truth on both sides, the difference may be that I am ignorant to the development and business side of things. Because of that I concede to your points. Thanks for knowing how to converse with someone coherently.

If somebody trow me 20 million dollar i will stay on my pc 24/7.

Please respond to my points on page one.

[QUOTE=nuMbx;43949787]I can see what you are saying. I guess I may have to high of expectations for them already. They shot out like a rocket and the game is so good, maybe I have too high of expectations. I do believe they could keep the community informed, possibly giving us insight into the timeline for development, like you stated. You are right, I have no idea what all this would entail, I am not a developer. While I may have over simplified everything, to the point of stupidity, I feel like there is a basic truth to what I am trying to say. There should be some type of increase seen in production of the game. It just may not be on a level that I am expecting. Certainly it isn't as if they need to suit the game to me or anybody else for that matter anyway. I suppose I let my own selfish desires lead me to post in emotion rather than knowledge when it comes to the depths of the issues, I am sure it is more difficult to do than to simply throw money at it. You are right, throwing money at this won't make it a better game. Disagreeing is one thing, people on here for the most part are not giving intellectual arguments, such as yours. They are just being fan boy's to the topic. I have been online for years and it is the trend for the mass of people to take up the same ideology without thoroughly thinking through why. You obviously know why you hold your position and honestly you have persuaded me to chill out and let Garry do what he is doing. This subject is way more in depth than it may appear to an outsider. I don't wish Garry to make stupid business decisions or put the game in detriment for no reason. If though, there isn't noticeable increase in game production within a reasonable amount of time, you can count on a decrease in interest. It is hard to have an even keel mindset here. To both enjoy the game, want production, and the see the development side of things. That is why it is important to communicate as much as possible what is being done. When you give the community insight and hands on the game this early, it becomes more of their concern and desire to see it through to completion. Everybody has their opinions, as long as you can state it reasonably, I don't have a problem with it. I think you have persuaded me allow for more time before I reserve judgment towards him not doing anything. I only wish more people where as thorough or straight forward without childishness as you were in your response. I believe there is truth on both sides, the difference may be that I am ignorant to the development and business side of things. Because of that I concede to your points. Thanks for knowing how to converse with someone coherently.[/QUOTE] The problem is not that we are not providing intelligent rebuttals. The problem is that you began this thread in an utterly contemptuous and arrogant manner, in which you suggested that your opinions were fact and that if anyone disagreed with you, they were sheeple. When you start off your opinions in such a manner along with ad hominem, people are not going to respond positively. If you would have written this thread and your posts within it in a respectful and concise manner, then the feedback would have been more to your liking. Instead, you have taken this chance to insult everyone with your audacity. I know personally, I do not feel inclined even in the slightest to entertain a thread when the OP has shown that they do not care for a debate, but for one-sided arguments instead.

[QUOTE=Leon Garoux;43949990]The problem is not that we are not providing intelligent rebuttals. The problem is that you began this thread in an utterly contemptuous and arrogant manner, in which you suggested that your opinions were fact and that if anyone disagreed with you, they were sheeple. When you start off your opinions in such a manner along with ad hominem, people are not going to respond positively. If you would have written this thread and your posts within it in a respectful and concise manner, then the feedback would have been more to your liking. Instead, you have taken this chance to insult everyone with your audacity. I know personally, I do not feel inclined even in the slightest to entertain a thread when the OP has shown that they do not care for a debate, but for one-sided arguments instead.[/QUOTE] So you don' t like me? You could have just said that.

[QUOTE=gaspara112;43949561]NuMbx, You have clearly never worked in the software development realm or business world, so let me explain a few things to you. 1) Past about 8 each developer added to a medium sized software development project adds a diminishing returns amount of increase of the timeline. This is to say if we take a small team and add 100 new people its likely that only 60% of the value of those 100 will be added and that is assuming all 100 are on par with the original team members, which is rarely the case. Which leads to... 2) The first 2 months of time for a new developer usually is only worth about 50% of their value. Because it takes time for them to get up to date with the project and the way the development team functions. This is often increased in cases of short term mass expansion due to new policies nad procedures needing to be constructed. 3) Running a business is expensive, the rent, equipment, software, and licenses for start ups (which FP is) is a giant initial investment usually totally a few million. 4) Excessive spending after first profits is one of the biggest downfalls in business including in the software industry. Building a sound business budget is paramount to having a successful business. 5) They have a timeline for development, trying to trow money at t to make it shorter is the best way to cause the business to fail and the game to be done more sloppily. Hope you learned something and consider that you might not know everything and that just because we disagree doesn't me we are no nothing sheep.[/QUOTE] This or a version of should be posted on every forum of every game. People are becoming so simple. Thank you for posting a basic common sense reply. More need to read this

[QUOTE=nuMbx;43950030]So you don' t like me? You could have just said that.[/QUOTE] I do not even know you - so how could I not like you? What I am suggesting is to improve your tact. The fact that you keep getting the same types of responses on most every thread/post of yours shows that it is your tact that is the issue. Improve your tact, and I can assure you that you will receive better feedback.

[QUOTE=mon_ons;43947906]Grand Theft Auto 5 cost ~$250 million to develop and market, it didn't come out for a little under 5 years. Rockstar North has 300+ people working for them and Rockstar reportedly said the game took "Probably much more" than 1000 people to make. The game took 5 years, 1000 people and ~$250 million dollars, so I'd say you're ignorant if you think more money means faster games. More money doesn't just magically create code out of thin air, otherwise we'd have Call of Duty twice or more a year.[/QUOTE] I don't think I can draw the same comparison that you are. 5 people working on a game is a tad different then hundreds working on a game. Those games also weren't pre-release alpha products that rolled updates out weekly. I understand what your trying to say, but I think it is a stretch to apply it to this situation just because they are both video games... [editline]17th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Leon Garoux;43950064]I do not even know you - so how could I not like you? What I am suggesting is to improve your tact. The fact that you keep getting the same types of responses on most every thread/post of yours shows that it is your tact that is the issue. Improve your tact, and I can assure you that you will receive better feedback.[/QUOTE] So you don't like my writing style.

[QUOTE=nuMbx;43950069]I don't think I can draw the same comparison that you are. 5 people working on a game is a tad different then hundreds working on a game. Those games also weren't pre-release alpha products that rolled updates out weekly. I understand what your trying to say, but I think it is a stretch to apply it to this situation just because they are both video games... [editline]17th February 2014[/editline] So you don't like my writing style.[/QUOTE] Not sure if my suggestions are just going over your head, or if you are being willfully facetious.

so much whining... can't these kids just ask for a refund?

And here i thought this was a t h read about finding a elephant ingame. boOOOOO!. BTW, as much as a lot of people are fanboys here(This IS the dev's forum, duh), you look like more of a retard then most of them Numb, good job topping their idiocy.

[QUOTE=Leon Garoux;43950122]Not sure if my suggestions are just going over your head, or if you are being willfully facetious.[/QUOTE] I am just interpreting what your telling me. [editline]17th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=G3wd B3rg3r;43950166]And here i thought this was a t h read about finding a elephant ingame. boOOOOO!. BTW, as much as a lot of people are fanboys here(This IS the dev's forum, duh), you look like more of a retard then most of them Numb, good job topping their idiocy.[/QUOTE] Thanks [editline]17th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=BaSkA_;43950147]so much whining... can't these kids just ask for a refund?[/QUOTE] Why would I want a refund on a game I enjoy? Oh, you didn't read anything.

I don't get it, this is a meaningless post and it gets great reactions from people. The internet is so full of trolls it's unbelievable. Meanwhile I'm trying to make contests for people to make money out of my own pocket and people vote my posts as dumb...

[QUOTE=nuMbx;43950069]I don't think I can draw the same comparison that you are. 5 people working on a game is a tad different then hundreds working on a game. Those games also weren't pre-release alpha products that rolled updates out weekly. I understand what your trying to say, but I think it is a stretch to apply it to this situation just because they are both video games...[/QUOTE] It's not a stretch though. You seem to think throwing money at developers gets games finished faster but it's not how that works, GTA 5 is evidence of that.

I like being in the Alpha, it means i have a chance at making some improvements. Many look at this as a finished game, they cry when they want things changed.

[QUOTE=nuMbx;43947330]And all of you little kiddies eat up the 10% and alpha talk. Am I the only person who thinks millions of dollars should speed up production? Or are you all sheeple?[/QUOTE] As a developer who has been involved with thousands of software projects over 20 years I can say it's just not that simple mate. Right now there are probably fundamental issues being addressed in the engine. This isn't simply about more work, more hands, more code - it is about a very difficult process of perfecting a very complex system. There is a famous book about software development called the "Mythical Man Month". The core conclusion of this book is "adding manpower to a late software project makes it later". The author also described this as: "Nine women can't make a baby in one month". Once the foundations are solid, more money becomes useful to accelerate development as content is created. Until that foundation is solid, though, adding content can cause you more problems. That content would be built on top of an engine which might turn out to need quite fundamental changes. That means you have to not only change the engine but change to content to work with a new system. Once they have an engine which supports a variety of things they know they will need to do, I would expect the actual visible part (all the features and content) can be accelerated.

Simple answer: More money DOES NOT EQUAL faster production. More money CAN EQUAL a better quality production. (Not ALWAYS true). If you felt that this system is so scammy, why did you buy into it? Because as smart as you seem to think you are, if you think the system is flawed you are stupid if you bought into it anyway.

[QUOTE=Brex;43947398]Garry probably has a lot already just from Gmod...[/QUOTE] you clearly don't realize that garry has spent all that on coke and strippers already

I think its so retarted funny how every post gets dumb rated. love this forums

[QUOTE=Cowie1337;43951931]you clearly don't realize that garry has spent all that on coke and strippers already[/QUOTE] +1 This is how I'd spend the money.

Money won't make the game come out sooner, it will just make the game better when it is done. Just because a group of people is having money thrown at them to do a task doesn't mean they can suddenly complete that task quicker.

I realise that i am probably gonna get lots of dumb votes for this, but surely, the dev team has an obligation to at least inform us stakeholders of the general direction that this game is heading towards. Right now all i see are bug fixes and nothing else is being mentioned; apart from the addition of NPCs. It's alright to take your time to produce a finished product that all of us would be proud of, but to have no direction or even the slightest inkling of how the finished product should look like, spells disaster and looks like gross mismanagement to me. Sure, the game can have no limitations and be non linear, but at least shed some light on what's gonna happen in the grand scheme of things and not leave us in the dark trying to second guess their next step, ffs, doesn't buying the game entitle you to a little bit of information? If the Devs are gonna actively listen to the community on how the game should progress, then there should be clear distinctions/boundaries set on the criteria of how suggestions get cherry picked into the game, right now, as it is, there's this massive lack of information which makes me feel like all the time i've put into rust is gonna be a huge waste of time, if the game continues lumbering along like a drunk.