Ladders are only a problem if you forget to secure the top floor with outward doors. I would recommend making a balcony level with doors or windows above. I don't think they entirely discourage rock bases since a raider still must spend wood resources to climb the rocks before climbing the building (it's not as much as a raid tower but still takes resources). Overall, I like them but I think it's weird that they stick to walls instead of lean against and they can be tacked on as you climb.
[QUOTE=Spoun;47793164]deffo agree[/QUOTE]
i never played legacy, but did towers were not a viable option in legacy especially because there were no cupboards ? the raiding mechanism and defense seemed fun i have to agree. only explosives could destroy walls, and people were safe with small houses.
[QUOTE=louisclub;47793217]i never played legacy, but did towers were not a viable option in legacy especially because there were no cupboards ? the raiding mechanism and defense seemed fun i have to agree. only explosives could destroy walls, and people were safe with small houses.[/QUOTE]
hard to understand your post, but in legacy players could build foundations onto the sides of houses if there was room. meant that players would build the base so there was no room for a foundation to prevent building up the side. that said, the fact that you needed c4 to break into places meant that most small bases were overlooked in favour of larger bases.
what he said ^^
So far already seen the effect from ladders:
* Cave base getting raided. Enemy uses a sh*tload of C4 ( biggest clan on the server ). Later they realize that there is a locked door on the second level.
Instead of breaking down the armored door with C4, they simply hack there way into the already weakened ground and use a ladder.
* Seen already five bases that are one or multi story high where the owner had no sticking out floors. All raided with ladders.
* Seen several bases where they C4 the sticking out floor and ladder up. People do not even bother trying to get in the front. Most just focus on getting to the roof.
As if C4 and rockets did not make the game difficult to have a effective defense for when your log off, now ladders make base raiding ultra cheap. Even a accidentally destroyed floor is no more limitation. The amount of raiding and constant killing going on has in my opinion skyrocketed.
People complaining how they get raided every night, sometimes multiple times... How they can not get a proper defense going.
Hell ... i have seen a guy who was so scared of the ladder, that he build several layers of sticking out floors and spend so much resources that he had non left that day to finish is roof ( what was still partially twig ). All it took was one twig tower and say hello to the loot.
There is no defense. End of story ... C4, Rockets, Ladder, Twig Tower or just hacking your way in ... The big clans love this as they have the manpower to constantly defend there own bases and only need to worry for other clans. Those same big clans then go out every night and have fun raping the medium/smaller/solo clan/players there bases. Airdrops all the time on there big base ( yay ... more resources for them ) that nobody can dare to attack.
They love the new ladder because it saves them even more on resources. Why C4 when you can ladder up. If the developers want ladders to stay in, BOTHER GIVING PROPER DEFENSES!
Hey Garry, you said you where listening to player, will you listen to that ??? ladder are not appreciated
I think they're pretty useful if the player you are raiding has a balcony. Let's say 2 guys enters the house. 1 goes trough the balcony and the other one trough the front door.
-The ladders are a good addition to the game.
-The building aspect of the game lacks of design. ( Edit: Oh almost forgot: The tier levels are the biggest joke for now, even a 6-year old would balance it better :D )
This means for now the game is pretty unbalanced and more in the favor of the raiders, but i think this will get solved in the next few updates.
Don't feel ladders are a good thing.
Before a solo player could build a well designed and relatively low cost base that could only be raided through clever play. Because such a base was affordable to make and raiding it depended on skill more than resource spam this provided solo players with a chance to compete with clans.
My own bases (built on ground not rock) survived 8 raids by 3 different clans across 2 servers in a month. Not once did they succeed in taking anything valuable or destroy the base, not with C4, not with rocket spam (when launchers were cheaper than rockets and came loaded), not with diving boards. It's not that my base was truly unraidable, just they were not clever enough to do it. They relied on numbers and resource spam, lacked the skill to beat me. Hell, I successfully raided all 3 clans in revenge because their bases, while bigger and more expensive than mine were not so well built. I fought clans and won.
But now? They will come with ladders and C4, and no solo player can make enough armor to stop a determined clan. First raid attempt and it will be over. They still suck at raiding, but ladders remove all need for skill. Ladders break all chance of solo players and small groups to compete against clans.
It's so obvious what was going to happen I wish they would've waited for a bigger content patch to add it. Maybe once they had a new base defense it would've been a good time to bring it in. Oh well though, hopefully they won't take forever to fix the glaring issues with the ladder so base builders can start having fun again.
Ladders are great to counter kids that destroy their stairs before they get off.
Good addition.
I can already think of a few counters anyway, like adding barricades around the edge of your base, adding a few floor panels around the edge of the roof, shit like that.
My issue with ladders is not that raiders can now access the roof from the outside, but that it can be used within the base as well. The splash damage from c4/rockets always eliminates stray floors/ceilings and walls along with the intended breach point. This makes it so raiders have multiple access points every time they use explosives, which almost guarantees accidental success in eventually getting the loot, even if the raiders have no idea where the loot room is.
[QUOTE=AlexConnor;47793905]Don't feel ladders are a good thing.
Before a solo player could build a well designed and relatively low cost base that could only be raided through clever play. Because such a base was affordable to make and raiding it depended on skill more than resource spam this provided solo players with a chance to compete with clans.
My own bases (built on ground not rock) survived 8 raids by 3 different clans across 2 servers in a month. Not once did they succeed in taking anything valuable or destroy the base, not with C4, not with rocket spam (when launchers were cheaper than rockets and came loaded), not with diving boards. It's not that my base was truly unraidable, just they were not clever enough to do it. They relied on numbers and resource spam, lacked the skill to beat me. Hell, I successfully raided all 3 clans in revenge because their bases, while bigger and more expensive than mine were not so well built. I fought clans and won.
But now? They will come with ladders and C4, and no solo player can make enough armor to stop a determined clan. First raid attempt and it will be over. They still suck at raiding, but ladders remove all need for skill. Ladders break all chance of solo players and small groups to compete against clans.[/QUOTE]
so much big talk, "clever play", "skill"... building a raiding tower, then jump and alt+f4... you call it clever play? and let me guess: you used a twig block to get up and that's why they couldn't raid you. wow, such skill... now this exploit is fixed and you are helpless. and you were able to raid their bases because they had balls to play fair and not use such cheap tricks.
to everyone complaining about ladders: you need to realize that what you were using to prevent your base from raiding were exploits. and it's fixed now, finally
[QUOTE=Spoun;47793063]because the TC was never implemented to stop raiding, it was to stop griefing.[/QUOTE]
this. if anything needs tweaking it's c4 vs walls balance, not nerfing/removing ladders
Ladders are great, and you should just learn how to design base that is not easy to raid with 1 or 2 ladders... But no, better cry, cause your "clever" rockbase is not raidproof. ;]
Most of post in this thread looks like:
"I get raided with ladders - FIX IT, ITS UNREALISTIC, THIS SHOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO RAID MY "CLEVER" ROCKBASE /cry hard"
To be honest I see it as an experiment in moving towards removing the tool cupboard which the devs have said is temporary.
So easy to raid now. Must have raided 30-40 bases since release with zero trouble at all. Rust easy mode for sure. I miss actually having a challenge. The only challenge now is actually finding a base that HASN'T been raided. Luckily I see some modded servers that have ladders disabled popping up so my group will probably switch to one of them when a we find a good one. We like a challenge and as of right now there just isn't one.
[QUOTE=reavertherash;47794698]So easy to raid now. Must have raided 30-40 bases since release with zero trouble at all. Rust easy mode for sure. I miss actually having a challenge. The only challenge now is actually finding a base that HASN'T been raided.[/QUOTE]
I feel the same. I'm fairly passive when it comes to raiding. The only time I go all out is when it's revenge or when a neighbour can't control himself with a weapon.
Yesterday, I took down 3 large bases because I easily could. All were small groups, 3 to 5 people, 2 of them were well built and had as many defenses as they could against ladders. I'm playing solo at the moment. It doesn't seem fair that I can do that so quickly.
It also takes a lot of the planning out. I don't need to scout the place out first, or find where I want to place the raid tower. I don't need to take out auxiliary cupboards.
[QUOTE=Bubahl;47794309]so much big talk, "clever play", "skill"... building a raiding tower, then jump and alt+f4... you call it clever play? and let me guess: you used a twig block to get up and that's why they couldn't raid you. wow, such skill... now this exploit is fixed and you are helpless. and you were able to raid their bases because they had balls to play fair and not use such cheap tricks.
to everyone complaining about ladders: you need to realize that what you were using to prevent your base from raiding were exploits. and it's fixed now, finally[/QUOTE]
Never used Alt-F4 in raiding. Not even once. And even without this exploit, I raided dozens of rock bases, build up bases, all these easy raids with nothing more than working out the weakness of the enemy base. Didn't even need to use signs on the springboard most of the time, that's right, most rock or buildup bases can be raided with a survivable jump off a twig only tower.
But my bases never got raided. Not impossible to raid (especially once rockets were introduced), just good cupboard placement and little tricks (IE all cupboards in little armor boxes so you have to blow them all up to take over the base, smaller apparently unrelated buildings on same "grid" as main base so I could rebuild if a clan nuked my foundations)
The "play fair" bases? Mostly left them alone, much easier to raid the build up and rock bases where people so lazy and overconfident about that type of base being unraidable that they didn't bother with dividing up the base or using armor.
The only annoyance with ladders, is that it limits base design. Sort of like prior to the stability udpate, the fashion was upside-down pyramidal structures, which then changed to structurally sound bases, and now we're going for a "lip" design, whereas a player must add a protective layer of ceilings to avoid roof access.
The reason this is considered "unfair" is because people have not gotten used to it yet, give it time and people will adjust. It is arguable that a ladder should probably be more fragile (e.g: a raid tower made of twig can get one shot, and thus presents a high risk for raiders), and more costly. (Though, 50 cloth/300 wood is a medium price range).
One thought is to make 3 tiers of ladders:
- A short weak twig 3-4 prong ladder. (300 wood / 30 cloth) (15 hp)
- A medium sized flimsy 6-8 prong ladder (500 wood / 30 metal fragments) (60 hp)
- A long 12-16 prong sturdy steel fire ladder (500 metal frags, 30 charcoal) (300 hp)
Allow ladders to be placed horizontally, and if horizontal to a certain degree (say past 40), would render the ladder unclimbable -> allows one to build ladders as a defensive mechanism, instead of building a 500 metal frag barricade, make a ladder and place it horizontally around your building to disallow ladder placement..would have to only work something out with small ladder spam, maybe make it so you can't place 1 tier ladder next to a different tier ladder on the same object.
Traps, fake building tiers that can fall apart if someone steps on it, landmines would definitely be nice, especially wall mounting them to blow up on destruction of a wall, or on contact with a pickaxe or something.
These are just ideas I'm throwing around, nothing too fleshed out, just a stream of consciousness!
TL;DR: People are not wrong when they say we need more defense if you're going to add more offense.
[QUOTE=benjiro;47793436]So far already seen the effect from ladders:
* Cave base getting raided. Enemy uses a sh*tload of C4 ( biggest clan on the server ). Later they realize that there is a locked door on the second level.
Instead of breaking down the armored door with C4, they simply hack there way into the already weakened ground and use a ladder.
* Seen already five bases that are one or multi story high where the owner had no sticking out floors. All raided with ladders.
* Seen several bases where they C4 the sticking out floor and ladder up. People do not even bother trying to get in the front. Most just focus on getting to the roof.
As if C4 and rockets did not make the game difficult to have a effective defense for when your log off, now ladders make base raiding ultra cheap. Even a accidentally destroyed floor is no more limitation. The amount of raiding and constant killing going on has in my opinion skyrocketed.
People complaining how they get raided every night, sometimes multiple times... How they can not get a proper defense going.
Hell ... i have seen a guy who was so scared of the ladder, that he build several layers of sticking out floors and spend so much resources that he had non left that day to finish is roof ( what was still partially twig ). All it took was one twig tower and say hello to the loot.
There is no defense. End of story ... C4, Rockets, Ladder, Twig Tower or just hacking your way in ... The big clans love this as they have the manpower to constantly defend there own bases and only need to worry for other clans. Those same big clans then go out every night and have fun raping the medium/smaller/solo clan/players there bases. Airdrops all the time on there big base ( yay ... more resources for them ) that nobody can dare to attack.
They love the new ladder because it saves them even more on resources. Why C4 when you can ladder up. If the developers want ladders to stay in, BOTHER GIVING PROPER DEFENSES![/QUOTE]
Well said!
Ladders should be placable everywhere in cupboard range, except walls
they should make it so that you can't put ladders on other players buldings (foundation, wall etc) if there's a tool cupboard
All people seem to be saying about ladders is about raiding, i don't think i have seen a single person mention them in reference as a positive building object that helps us, Except me, i could be wrong about that, but i think the ladders great they can help us make smaller width buildings without the need for stairs if we want to build higher up. People were complaining about stairs and asking for ladders or better stairs. Well we got ladders.
My ONE and ONLY complaint about ladders is that i CANT stick them too TREES!, i had plans for tree houses.
There are always will be two sides that says:
-you making game too easy for raiders
-you making game too easy for defenders
Ladders are balanced. Only rockbase kids are crying now. But even before ladders it was easy to get on top of any rockbase.
[QUOTE=halfhand2012;47786800]I don't mind the ladders at all just want the game to be as realistic as possible. People carrying ten 40' ladders in a pocket is just stupid. And ladders clinging to the wall like they are bolted in is also stupid.
I was thinking of building a tower as a troll base with spiked floors from top down a few floors just to see who would go through the roof and spend all that time and equipment to get to the front door lol[/QUOTE]
Where are your posts about unrealistic Toolcupboard mechanic, cause i can't find them? :D
I both hate and love them.
Hate them because i can no longer have a base as a soloplayer.
Love them because i can now raid some rock bases as a solo player,i can also get into raided bases or older bases with ladders to scavenge for minor loot.Still can't raid large clans because they switched to overhangs which take allot of c4 to get though if the base is tall.
I absolutely hate them. they make you have to build bases 2-3 times the size for any sort of real protection. People are using way more spike walls and this ladder thing is basically just forcing the entity count on servers much higher due to all the anti ladder defense measures. plus everyone's base is now ugly as f**k and I hate it.
[QUOTE=Yanglegend;47798929]Where are your posts about unrealistic Toolcupboard mechanic, cause i can't find them? :D[/QUOTE]
Tool cupboard mechanic is realistic.
The building system is sped up (acceptable break from reality), similar to other sped up mechanics like being able craft guns and functional ammunition without hydraulic presses and metal working tools. All things that might be done in real life, just made easier here for the sake of gameplay.
But something you would never do in real life is attack an enemy held structure by building your own structure against it or near it. You're not going to bring in building materials, spend time constructing platforms onto the walls of the enemy building while the enemy (who would never be "offline" lol) shot at you.
Even if you wanted to, you couldn't. The enemy would not build a stone or steel wall and leave structural attachment points on the outside for you to build up with.
No, if you needed to scale something you'd bring ladders or ropes, climb with light temporary equipment.
So we have ladders now but you can't build structures onto an enemy base, these are really very realistic game mechanics. Not sure if they make the best gameplay, but it's realistic.
[QUOTE=AlexConnor;47799379]Tool cupboard mechanic is realistic.
The building system is sped up (acceptable break from reality), similar to other sped up mechanics like being able craft guns and functional ammunition without hydraulic presses and metal working tools. All things that might be done in real life, just made easier here for the sake of gameplay.
But something you would never do in real life is attack an enemy held structure by building your own structure against it or near it. You're not going to bring in building materials, spend time constructing platforms onto the walls of the enemy building while the enemy (who would never be "offline" lol) shot at you.
Even if you wanted to, you couldn't. The enemy would not build a stone or steel wall and leave structural attachment points on the outside for you to build up with.
No, if you needed to scale something you'd bring ladders or ropes, climb with light temporary equipment.
So we have ladders now but you can't build structures onto an enemy base, these are really very realistic game mechanics. Not sure if they make the best gameplay, but it's realistic.[/QUOTE]
i disagree about the TC. the magical cupboard was made as a stop gap to prevent people from placing things where they weren't wanted, and functions by claiming an area within range, as if that mystical claim would prevent a player from building. it's not realistic, it was needed, but i think it needs to go.
the building mechanic is at fault really, as the same mechanic that allows us to build our base rapidly without the game becoming a hammer simulator also allows people do build onto a base in the middle of a fight. there is no time delay, no effort required in placing a wall or foundation for either party. it means that we need something in place to stop grief building, or we need to change our attitude toward others building on "our" bases.
another solution would be to have building go back to previous iterations and either need hammering/interaction or self build with a time delay (like the auto generating health we used to have). the problem with either of those is that people don't want to wait when they build, without understanding the same build mechanic applies to builders, raiders and griefers alike.
ladders i have no issue with. i agree they should be light equipment, and debate if they should stick to walls. on the one hand it's pretty easy to attach a ladder to a wall, on the other hand it's a few sticks strapped together. but either way it's not as gamebreaking as people seem to think.
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