Did they just remove tool raiding from rust and made c4 raiding 2x as hard? - Rust

For funzies.

[QUOTE=billy79;47862881]I'm not a raider and as a solo player this makes it easier but I wonder when they make changes to balance why do they make such extreme ones.[/QUOTE] It could be dialed back as needed. I'm not sure that making nakeds unable to raid stone+ bases with sticks and tools is to extreme though. The C4 change might be a bit goofy, not sure.

This is not a problem assuming new items and tools will be added that can be an effective aid in raiding. If so, I'm hoping that such items would be more difficult to gain than C4 but worth using for large scale raids.

People seem to forget that you don't only raid for immediate resource gain; you can raid to: A) Clear out players from an area of the map you want, especially larger groups trying to keep territory for their own farming. B.) Wipe rival groups and players that you don't like off of the server. If you destroy every last remnant of a group, there's a high chance they'll leave, at least until the next wipe.

Lets see: Garry increased the costs for Armored Walls to the crazy 500/400/300. * Raiders: YAY!!! * Base owners: NOO!!! Garry introduced rockets making remote destruction a easy as hell. * Raiders: YAY!!! * Base owners: NOO!!! Garry introduced barricades. * Raiders: NOO!!! * Base owners: YAY!!! Garry introduced ladders. Bypassing a lot of the defense. * Raiders: YAY!!! * Base owners: NOO!!! Garry introduced decay on foundations. Means that base builders are unable to build inaccessible outer foundations anymore ( there goes the honeycomb layout, unless you wanted to place a door in each and every freaking comb room! ). * Raiders: YAY!!! * Base owners: NOO!!! Garry changed the damage that C4 does to Armored wall to 425 ( instead of 350 ). * Raiders: YAY!!! * Base owners: NOO!!! Garry made changes that the outer sides of walls / floors / foundations are FINALLY stronger. * Raiders: NOO!!! * Base owners: YAY!!! What is wrong with this list? Right ... the fact that raiders have been so much advantaged in the last few patches that any base is just a loot room ready to be opened. I gave up on the game because its so imbalanced to one side. The change that they made is reasonable. This change it literally means its harder to nuke a base or grief a base and raiders need to be more strategic in there attacks. It also means that trying to simply blast, takes more resources. It makes the current 0 effort raiding, take some effort again. Simple as that. Because lets face it ... it has been overlay raid friendly to the point that making a base become useless. People build massive overgrown bases that become insane in there resource needs ( something the raiders overlook ) and give up after a raid because of the massive 3 tile damage range destroys so much, that your better off just rebuilding another base somewhere else = more junk on the server.

[QUOTE=benjiro;47863704] What is wrong with this list? Right ... the fact that raiders have been so much advantaged in the last few patches that any base is just a loot room ready to be opened. I gave up on the game because its so imbalanced to one side. The change that they made is reasonable. This change it literally means its harder to nuke a base or grief a base and raiders need to be more strategic in there attacks. It also means that trying to simply blast, takes more resources. It makes the current 0 effort raiding, take some effort again. Simple as that. Because lets face it ... it has been overlay raid friendly to the point that making a base become useless. People build massive overgrown bases that become insane in there resource needs ( something the raiders overlook ) and give up after a raid because of the massive 3 tile damage range destroys so much, that your better off just rebuilding another base somewhere else = more junk on the server.[/QUOTE] are you stupid? IT TAKE 1 NODE FOR 2 ARMORED WALLS, NEXT PATCH IT IS GOING TO TAKE 54+ SULFUR NODES TO TAKE DOWN 1 EXTERIOR ARMORED WALL i've had a base that i solo built on texas 1 since the wipe and induction of ladders in the middle of the fucking map and i have yet to be raided after the first week. I swear everyone bitching about ladders have no idea how to make a base or expect 3 hours of work to negate the work and time it takes to build c4.

[QUOTE=RaaR;47864184]are you stupid? IT TAKE 1 NODE FOR 2 ARMORED WALLS, NEXT PATCH IT IS GOING TO TAKE 54+ SULFUR NODES TO TAKE DOWN 1 EXTERIOR ARMORED WALL i've had a base that i solo built on texas 1 since the wipe and induction of ladders in the middle of the fucking map and i have yet to be raided after the first week. I swear everyone bitching about ladders have no idea how to make a base or expect 3 hours of work to negate the work and time it takes to build c4.[/QUOTE] You can't use 2 armored walls as a comparison to c4 costs. For every 1 wall destroyed by c4 the builder had to build a foundation, pillars, and 2 other walls. The balance probably isn't perfect yet, but this is a lot closer than we've been for a while now.

[QUOTE=Zipper Bear;47864535]You can't use 2 armored walls as a comparison to c4 costs. For every 1 wall destroyed by c4 the builder had to build a foundation, pillars, and 2 other walls. The balance probably isn't perfect yet, but this is a lot closer than we've been for a while now.[/QUOTE] So it takes 54 nodes to make enough C4 to blow down the exterior wall If you mine 54 metal nodes you can make 108 upgrades I dont think you have a point

I can understand making it a bit harder, but 10 times as much? To be fair, in real life hacking at a wooden wall or door with an axe would destroy the building pretty fast. Picking down a stone wall, depending on how the wall is made, might not be that hard either. To me it removes the small amount of precision we had before, but I guess now all that left is to blow everything up. I would at least like a bit more to raid with rather than c4.

[QUOTE=RaaR;47864643]So it takes 54 nodes to make enough C4 to blow down the exterior wall If you mine 54 metal nodes you can make 108 upgrades I dont think you have a point[/QUOTE] * First wall 1x1: 7 pieces to upgrade ( 4 walls, roof, foundation, door ). 3500 Metal/2800 Stone/2100 Before you needed: 3 C4 to breach. Now you need: 6 C4. * Second wall: 3x3: 29 pieces to upgrade ( 12 walls, 8 roof, 8 foundation, door ). 14500 Metal/11600 Stone / 8700 Wood Before you needed: 5 C4 to breach ( second wall 3 + first wall 2 ) because of blast range. Now you need: 10 C4. * Third wall: 5x5: 53 pieces to upgrade ( 20 walls, 16 roof, 16 foundation, door ). 26500 Metal/21200 Stone / 15900 Wood Before you needed: 6 C4 to breach ( third wall 3, second wall 2, third wall 1 ) because of blast range. Now you need: 12 C4. At that point you breached 3 armored walls deep, that took the builders 89 upgrades to build. So its not a far cry from your 108 upgraded. You now have ladders, that means you can focus on breaching weak spots instead of pure brute force. A 5x5 with one level? You ladder up and breach the top. 6 C4 ... The builder still needed to do 84 upgrades. Also ... the builder still needs to spend more resources on outer-anti ladder protection ( that if blown from below only take 1 or 2 or 3 C4!! ), barriers also take the exact same C4 as before! What they did is make the bases more durable and not like matchstick bases that fall down when somebody blows on them. Also ... if somebody breaches your roof, the blast will more difficult to destroy your floor but it will travel inside = it will damage the inside walls the same as before!!! So do not underestimate this. Your assuming that people will simply do brute force raiding on outside walls one by one. Now people may actually look for weak spots in base designs to exploit. [QUOTE=dark hunter;47864758]I can understand making it a bit harder, but 10 times as much? To be fair, in real life hacking at a wooden wall or door with an axe would destroy the building pretty fast. Picking down a stone wall, depending on how the wall is made, might not be that hard either. .[/QUOTE] Never demolished a wall in real life? I can tell you from real life experience even with power tools it takes hours to take down a wall "safely". And if you have some walls where somebody over used concrete. I had a stupid 1 meter by 5 meter side wall take 5 hours just to cut it in 3 pieces with power tools, because the people used way too much concrete. A pickaxe on a wall... *ha* ... yea, ... if you want to spend a entire day at it? Now i do agree that the pickaxe 10 times is too high. And i am very much pro-base builders!! A two time increase or three times at max will have been better. But you know? It might actually force people to hunt more instead of just raiding people there bases when they are off-line. Because lets face it, currently bases are nothing but paper boxes. Even if you spend 30 hours building a base, it takes one **** that destroys it, loots everything and you are stuck with a base that is swiss cheese, with hours of repair work, no resources etc. While the raider has all your stuff and probably plenty of resources to build even more C4.

[QUOTE=RaaR;47864643]So it takes 54 nodes to make enough C4 to blow down the exterior wall If you mine 54 metal nodes you can make 108 upgrades I dont think you have a point[/QUOTE] You have no clue what you're talking about. A builder's upgrade costs increase exponentially for every additional layer the raider breaches. If you got a 2x2, the raider really only needs to breach 1 wall. If you have a 5x5, a raider has to blast 3 walls to get as deep as they need to go. The builder on the other hand, has to upgrade those 3 walls, along with the other 57 walls, along with however many pillars and ceilings and barricades (and counter ladder floors). Furthermore, unless the base builder can completely predict where you're going to make your entry point, you will run into inner walls at some point during the raid, or did you conveniently forget that part? So you'll still be able to break out your melee tools to get wherever else you need to go once you reach the center. Are you starting to see the whole picture yet?

[QUOTE=benjiro;47864908]... Before you needed: 6 C4 to breach ( third wall 3, second wall 2, third wall 1 ) because of blast range. Now you need: 12 C4. At that point you breached 3 armored walls deep, that took the builders 89 upgrades to build. So its not a far cry from your 108 upgraded. [B]Yes but the equivalent nodes required for 12 c4 you have another 108 upgrades you can do [/B] You now have ladders, that means you can focus on breaching weak spots instead of pure brute force. A 5x5 with one level? You ladder up and breach the top. 6 C4 ... The builder still needed to do 84 upgrades. Also ... the builder still needs to spend more resources on outer-anti ladder protection ( that if blown from below only take 1 or 2 or 3 C4!! ), barriers also take the exact same C4 as before! What they did is make the bases more durable and not like matchstick bases that fall down when somebody blows on them. Also ... if somebody breaches your roof, the blast will more difficult to destroy your floor but it will travel inside = it will damage the inside walls the same as before!!! So do not underestimate this. Your assuming that people will simply do brute force raiding on outside walls one by one. Now people may actually look for weak spots in base designs to exploit. [B] dont put your loot on the top floor , honestly i have a 5 story house 4x4+3 and all my loot is bottom floor around the outside, never had my loot raided yet because they stop halfway down. plus i hate climbing stairs[/B] [/QUOTE] [editline]2nd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Zipper Bear;47864922]You have no clue what you're talking about. A builder's upgrade costs increase exponentially for every additional layer the raider breaches. If you got a 2x2, the raider really only needs to breach 1 wall. If you have a 5x5, a raider has to blast 3 walls to get as deep as they need to go. The builder on the other hand, has to upgrade those 3 walls, along with the other 57 walls, along with however many pillars and ceilings and barricades (and counter ladder floors). Furthermore, unless the base builder can completely predict where you're going to make your entry point, you will run into inner walls at some point during the raid, or did you conveniently forget that part? So you'll still be able to break out your melee tools to get wherever else you need to go once you reach the center. Are you starting to see the whole picture yet?[/QUOTE] the same amount of nodes for 6 c4 can build you a fully armored 5x5x1 with left over for doors.

And a raider can blow open that 5x5x1 with 6 c4, oh wait look at that IT'S THE SAME. Like I said before, the balance is probably not perfect yet, but it's a hell of a lot closer than you're trying to make it out to be.

[QUOTE=Zipper Bear;47865074]And a raider can blow open that 5x5x1 with 6 c4, oh wait look at that IT'S THE SAME. Like I said before, the balance is probably not perfect yet, but it's a hell of a lot closer than you're trying to make it out to be.[/QUOTE] I think we can argue all day about this lol realistically you wouldn't start off with a 5x5x1, I was just saying the amount of nodes required could build that. you're better off building a 3x3 which you could build with the same nodes and then adding rings around it as you go. It would be better to nerf blast radius down to legacy and make c4 cheaper and quicker, but everytime i suggest that it gets voted stupid

[QUOTE=RaaR;47865225]It would be better to nerf blast radius down to legacy and make c4 cheaper and quicker, but everytime i suggest that it gets voted stupid[/QUOTE] That is because some people only want to troll / grieve other players. For them actually having to do effort is something they do not understand. Sulfur processes at twice the rate that iron does. Gunpowder one can craft by just keeping your PC running while you query up a 1000. After that the C4 is easy and not very time consuming. Sometimes people seem to think that a base builder like me, also crafts explosives / C4. And in my opinion in the current gameplay ( before the wall tweaks ) is WAY easy for C4 crafting and "having fun" afterwards raiding. The same can not be said about adding expanding layer after layer to a base just to increase the C4 costs with one or two. People who actually needed to repair there base know how annoying and time consuming a C4 blast is ( and how far it travels in a base ).

just to clarify, does this suggest that there are 2 sides to the panels again?

[QUOTE=mrknifey;47865949]just to clarify, does this suggest that there are 2 sides to the panels again?[/QUOTE] There's an "inner" side and an "outer" side. This change should be coming with a change to the armored wall, making it more obvious which side is what. Via rustafied.

sorry zip, what i mean is will there be different damage resistance between the inner and outside of the panel; ie would a wall break more easily if it was facing the wrong way/the panel is damaged from the inside:)

[QUOTE=mrknifey;47866072]sorry zip, what i mean is will there be different damage resistance between the inner and outside of the panel; ie would a wall break more easily if it was facing the wrong way/the panel is damaged from the inside:)[/QUOTE] yeah the exterior walls are going to be x10 resistant to melee and x2 to explosive see link [url]http://www.reddit.com/r/playrust/comments/3877x5/what_exactly_is_this_supposed_to_mean_do_walls/crsueh5[/url]

x10 resistant to melee. ten times? TEN TIMES? Is that how you ballance? Ridiculous.

5x to melee and 1.5x to explosives would have seemed right too. Maybe this is better. Makes you focus on doors again. Interesting and welcome change. Does that mean splash is still going to eat theough 2 doors?

You're all talking like people only build 3x3 houses or a max of 5x5. Ever heard of 15x15 ? Oh wait, on a server, 2 built a 30x30 base, why ? Because the Great Glory of Satan. People already abuse any advantage they can get, this is the reason that everyone will start to build even larger bases, because they will be closer to being "unraidable". And by "unraidable", I mean a ridiculous amount of time spent to play this game, because at this moment you can do 2 things: Build and Raid. Making friends, talking to people, roleplay (there's none, but I'm sure there's a possibility) and painting isn't something you can consider a major feature at the moment, because if I would paint, at least, I would do it in Photoshop.

[QUOTE=Denrrim;47867584]You're all talking like people only build 3x3 houses or a max of 5x5. Ever heard of 15x15 ? Oh wait, on a server, 2 built a 30x30 base, why ? Because the Great Glory of Satan. People already abuse any advantage they can get, this is the reason that everyone will start to build even larger bases, because they will be closer to being "unraidable". And by "unraidable", I mean a ridiculous amount of time spent to play this game, because at this moment you can do 2 things: Build and Raid. Making friends, talking to people, roleplay (there's none, but I'm sure there's a possibility) and painting isn't something you can consider a major feature at the moment, because if I would paint, at least, I would do it in Photoshop.[/QUOTE] As a fellow single player(and there is no warning on Rust saying: "Play only with friends, alone you can only farm trees"), making stone 4 c4 and 10x melee raiding. That's harsh. It's unplayable. Want to balance the groups? Put cooldown on damage more than 2 people. Easy done. Game has nothing else besides killing people, raiding, building. That's all. No PVE, no purpose. Why should anyone group with me now? They can make a 1x1 armored base. Guess how many c4 are that now? It's ruined now, well played Garry well played. P.S. First the fps issue or put items and leave optimization at the end. Choose a path and follow it. They care too much about everything and get nothing done.

Garry turned Rust in some asian grindfest mmo. Who will mine resources 10 hours to raid 3x3x1 shelter with 3 wooden spears and 500~ metal fragments inside? :D Well played Garry, im waiting for item shop with C4, cause game is not crappy enough atm. :D

[QUOTE=Yanglegend;47868064]Garry turned Rust in some asian grindfest mmo. Who will mine resources 10 hours to raid 3x3x1 shelter with 3 wooden spears and 500~ metal fragments inside? :D Well played Garry, im waiting for item shop with C4, cause game is not crappy enough atm. :D[/QUOTE] And like that person who build the base also spend 10 hours resource gathering and to only see you run away with his (few or many) resources and needing to repair / rebuild his base because you had your fun blowing it up??? O right ... And sorry but are people dumb or what? I already figure out several ways to reduce the cost for breaching a armored walls / floors from 6 to 4 per wall / section. Stop b*tching about it and actually use your head instead of doing in the past, blasting straight into people there bases. Raiding has become raiding for dummies 101 in the last few months and you can tell how lazy people have become. They want more & more raiding tools, more and more easy. But they never think about the poor saps that they raid, coming back to raided bases each day. This is exactly why so many people give up after a few days, because the balance was pure in favor of grieving people by constantly raiding them. This is the exact same reason why the population on specific server never grows after a few days. Because people are already fed up with the constant raiding ( and lack of more content ). So after a week you see the server peek population going down and down. When they do not wipe for 3 weeks, the population becomes a joke. You have the few die hard clans left but the few newbies that move in in general leave just as fast.

[QUOTE=benjiro;47863704]Lets see: Garry increased the costs for Armored Walls to the crazy 500/400/300. * Raiders: YAY!!! * Base owners: NOO!!! Garry introduced rockets making remote destruction a easy as hell. * Raiders: YAY!!! * Base owners: NOO!!! Garry introduced barricades. * Raiders: NOO!!! * Base owners: YAY!!! Garry introduced ladders. Bypassing a lot of the defense. * Raiders: YAY!!! * Base owners: NOO!!! Garry introduced decay on foundations. Means that base builders are unable to build inaccessible outer foundations anymore ( there goes the honeycomb layout, unless you wanted to place a door in each and every freaking comb room! ). * Raiders: YAY!!! * Base owners: NOO!!! Garry changed the damage that C4 does to Armored wall to 425 ( instead of 350 ). * Raiders: YAY!!! * Base owners: NOO!!! Garry made changes that the outer sides of walls / floors / foundations are FINALLY stronger. * Raiders: NOO!!! * Base owners: YAY!!! What is wrong with this list? Right ... the fact that raiders have been so much advantaged in the last few patches that any base is just a loot room ready to be opened. I gave up on the game because its so imbalanced to one side. The change that they made is reasonable. This change it literally means its harder to nuke a base or grief a base and raiders need to be more strategic in there attacks. It also means that trying to simply blast, takes more resources. It makes the current 0 effort raiding, take some effort again. Simple as that. Because lets face it ... it has been overlay raid friendly to the point that making a base become useless. People build massive overgrown bases that become insane in there resource needs ( something the raiders overlook ) and give up after a raid because of the massive 3 tile damage range destroys so much, that your better off just rebuilding another base somewhere else = more junk on the server.[/QUOTE] Benjiro tank you !!! y love what u say ..." Sniper hit target " +1

I love to raid in Rust and I'm happy to see Garry made this change. Even if it makes raiding harder for me I fully understand the complaints of base owners that bases should be more safe. It's just silly to think that some clan can raid a whole base with pickaxes... (at night whilst the homeowner is offline). That doesn't make any sense imo.

Thats an temporary FO for players crying because of balance.

[QUOTE=Iceboy15;47867596]It's ruined now, well played Garry well played.[/QUOTE] I love all these dramatic statements now that it is harder to break into a base with tools. On legacy you could never break through a wall with tools, and nothing was ruined.

[QUOTE=cinderstar;47869315]I love all these dramatic statements now that it is harder to break into a base with tools. On legacy you could never break through a wall with tools, and nothing was ruined.[/QUOTE] Every time any new feature or item is added to Rust, the forums swell up with one-post-wonders decrying how "Rust is now ruined". These people either never post again, or show up a few weeks later (after the NEXT update) to say "the last update made the game awesome but RUST IS NOW RUINED".