To all of you complaining about how ''Broken" rust it. - Rust

though.. to be fair, if you don't stop to try and fix cheats and hacks.. then you will have no "testers" left...

[QUOTE=Chrisrock454;43511683]Ok, So you have obtained this game and been warned that it is an ALPHA[/QUOTE] Ok, I heard this shit all too often with Minecraft and every other early access game, here is the kicker about Alphas (from a software developer). "It's alpha" becomes an excuse for things to not be fixed iteration after iteration until it rolls gold, at which point the alpha defenders look retarded and disappear. Noise gets raised [i]because[/i] these are things that need fixing (along with the lack of visibility on bugs/planned balance changes/etc), and the paranoia of them [i]not[/i] being fixed is very real (look at Minecraft being filled with bugs from the Alpha days, or even look at Arma 2 where hackers were still a serious problem in 2012, 3 years after gold release), right now the Alpha testers don't have any visibility on the majority of the long-term goals (Trello is a really weak project board when dealing with scope this wide). And Minecraft is a fairly decent example, few games you sell after 4 months of development are going to have a solid code base that can be easily bent to your will without massive overhauls (though no doubt in my mind that Garry's team is better than Notch's, but there is always the balance of "fast vs. right", and fast always becomes a technical debt nightmare). The only thing that worries me about Rust is the lack of quick iterations during the alpha phase, which is required for a tight feedback loop on balance changes, anti-cheat measures, and bug fixes. I hope good things for Rust, but just because it's Alpha doesn't mean the problems [i]will[/i] be addressed later, there are many games that have released game breaking bugs from the alpha days once they go gold.

[QUOTE=Scynix;43512144]Being alpha isn't an excuse for allowing cheats. If anything it's completely opposite. Alpha is an active development phase. Retail isn't. If it's this bad now, it's going to be much much worse at retail.[/QUOTE] makes sense because they put patches out that boost security :pwn:

[QUOTE=slowpokimus;43514808] his point was in regards to network traffic[/QUOTE] OK, so let's assume players are sending position and rotation 15 times per second (the uLink default sendrate). We know they had to do a lot of Ninja hacks to allow them to represent object position with double precision. That means they have to be sending object position as a "double", which is 8 bytes (a normal "float" is 4 bytes, but you lose millimeter precision past 10km away from origin, and movement starts to look jittery). That message might look like this: object ID (integer, 4 bytes) position x (double, 8 bytes) position y (double, 8 bytes) position z (double, 8 bytes) rotation x (float, 4 bytes) rotation y (float, 4 bytes) -- don't need rotation z That comes out to 36 bytes, sent 15 times per second Now let's assume players send input state instead. object ID (integer, 4 bytes) input x (float, 4 bytes) input y (float, 4 bytes) rotation x (float, 4 bytes) rotation y (float, 4 bytes) is jumping, is running, is firing, is aiming, is crouching (bitmask, 1 byte) input x/y are treated as a "virtual axis", and each range between -1 and 1. We send rotation x/y as before. The state of various buttons can be represented as an on/off value. A byte has 8 bits, which means we can pack the state of 8 buttons into a single byte. If we need more, we can add another byte which allows us to send the state of 16 buttons. That comes out to 17 bytes (18 if we give our buttons bitmask another byte just to be safe). If we optimize our input and do it the Source engine way, we might sample input at a constant 30 times per second. That's 17/18 bytes sent 30 times per second.

The cheats that are out there right now are a direct result of the buggy nature of the alpha stage of game development. They exploit those bugs that are inherent in the early development of the game; bugs that the developers are actively trying to track down and fix. Once the game nears full release, it will of course be much more polished. That is the time when the team will go into full debug mode and will perform rigorous testing of the program, finding and eradicating most of the bugs. At this point, it won't be so easy to create a cheat for the game. The developers also will not be developing game play, but rather polishing a finished project. This will allow for more time to be spent on cheat detection and fixes.

[QUOTE=StrangeWill;43515274]Ok, I heard this shit all too often with Minecraft and every other early access game, here is the kicker about Alphas (from a software developer). "It's alpha" becomes an excuse for things to not be fixed iteration after iteration until it rolls gold, at which point the alpha defenders look retarded and disappear.[/QUOTE] There are no firm and hard rules to the names assigned to different development stages. Typically, Alpha just means not feature complete. It's a test build. How incomplete can vary widely. How other developers may use terms such as alpha and beta is completely irrelevant. Facepunch spelled it out for us: [img]http://i.imgur.com/RKHrro1.png[/img] That warning is very clear and easy to understand. I want to break it down for you, but it doesn't get any more clear than that. Would the bolding of some terms help? It doesn't matter what any of us might think alpha means because it's not even referenced in that exceedingly clear disclaimer. When/if you read that, you should probably have decided not to purchase it. The early access program is very awesome. It allows the development of niche games to be funded by those excited by the goals of the project. It helps developers remain independent, outside the influence of greedy and incompetent publishers.

[QUOTE=StrangeWill;43515274]Ok, I heard this shit all too often with Minecraft and every other early access game, here is the kicker about Alphas (from a software developer). "It's alpha" becomes an excuse for things to not be fixed iteration after iteration until it rolls gold, at which point the alpha defenders look retarded and disappear. Noise gets raised [i]because[/i] these are things that need fixing (along with the lack of visibility on bugs/planned balance changes/etc), and the paranoia of them [i]not[/i] being fixed is very real (look at Minecraft being filled with bugs from the Alpha days, or even look at Arma 2 where hackers were still a serious problem in 2012, 3 years after gold release), right now the Alpha testers don't have any visibility on the majority of the long-term goals (Trello is a really weak project board when dealing with scope this wide). And Minecraft is a fairly decent example, few games you sell after 4 months of development are going to have a solid code base that can be easily bent to your will without massive overhauls (though no doubt in my mind that Garry's team is better than Notch's, but there is always the balance of "fast vs. right", and fast always becomes a technical debt nightmare). The only thing that worries me about Rust is the lack of quick iterations during the alpha phase, which is required for a tight feedback loop on balance changes, anti-cheat measures, and bug fixes. I hope good things for Rust, but just because it's Alpha doesn't mean the problems [i]will[/i] be addressed later, there are many games that have released game breaking bugs from the alpha days once they go gold.[/QUOTE] Jesus. Here is an alpha story. I have a shitty little program that's been in it's "alpha" for almost 3 years. Granted, it isn't a game, and it isn't for sale, and I'm a shitty programmer, but I am also in control of it and in control of my time. If I had charged folks to use it, I would value their input just as much as I value the input of my current users, but I'll be damned if someone waving a $20 dollar bill around making demands is going to change how or what I do with my project. It will come out of alpha when I fucking say it will. You getting your hands on software as it's being developed is a privilege. Don't like the current state it's in, wait 3 years and you might like it then. Software development is blood, sweat, tears, and business, not fucking McDonalds. I don't like the turn Minecraft has taken either, but I respect that it is their project. (witches and jack-o-lanterns are flat stupid, imo) But they will do what needs to be done to make it fit their vision. Same with Rust. Be real. The game has only been available on early access for a month. A month with a big fucking holiday in the middle of it. What exactly are you expecting? You seem to have carefully determined the arguments against buying into an alpha. Why the fuck did you buy it then? Do you just like to bitch? It sounds like you have your own idea for a project you would like to start. You should probably stop bitching and get to work. Shit's harder than you obviously think it is.

[QUOTE=ruicunha;43511797]Maybe this game needs 20 millions for anti cheat measures, you are right we are all idiots To complain, we paid To test, not To have fun. You prob some fp loverboy.[/QUOTE] While its true you paid to play this game and you should expect to have some fun with the game. They did warn you that the game was buggy and it was in Early alpha so have patience this isn't a large developing studio we are talking about its just like 3 people working on it.

I'm just confused why everyone is assuming the cheats are *strictly* related to bugs? The vast majority of known ESP cheats, especially by those asshats at AA, are injection based as far as I'm aware. They don't exploit bugs at all. They exploit the engine, or information in the engine.

[QUOTE=tirpider;43516700]Jesus. Here is an alpha story. I have a shitty little program that's been in it's "alpha" for almost 3 years. Granted, it isn't a game, and it isn't for sale, and I'm a shitty programmer, but I am also in control of it and in control of my time. If I had charged folks to use it, I would value their input just as much as I value the input of my current users, but I'll be damned if someone waving a $20 dollar bill around making demands is going to change how or what I do with my project. It will come out of alpha when I fucking say it will. You getting your hands on software as it's being developed is a privilege. Don't like the current state it's in, wait 3 years and you might like it then. Software development is blood, sweat, tears, and business, not fucking McDonalds.[/quote] Ok, this has no bearing on anything I've said... I've released multiple pieces of software from internal alphas, public alphas, betas and releases. [QUOTE=tirpider;43516700]I don't like the turn Minecraft has taken either, but I respect that it is their project. (witches and jack-o-lanterns are flat stupid, imo) But they will do what needs to be done to make it fit their vision. Same with Rust. Be real. The game has only been available on early access for a month. A month with a big fucking holiday in the middle of it. What exactly are you expecting?[/quote] Right, but any time someone complains about game breaking bugs we get "it's an alpha", with no notes on Trello about it (not that Trello is really the platform to handle the large list of fixes needed). I've worked on large projects, we have backlogs that show that we're aware of what needs to be fixed. The signal to noise ratio is pretty high here and it's hard to determine what bugs will be addressed, are even known about by developers. It would be nice to see what kind of issues have been published as needing to be worked on. [QUOTE=tirpider;43516700]You seem to have carefully determined the arguments against buying into an alpha. Why the fuck did you buy it then? Do you just like to bitch? It sounds like you have your own idea for a project you would like to start. You should probably stop bitching and get to work. Shit's harder than you obviously think it is.[/QUOTE] No, just playing a bit of devil's advocate from someone in the industry. There has always been a strong circlejerk of "well it's an alpha, you can't complain" around any early release (which all are generally the same concept [b]including Rust[/b], which involves "shit will change", "nothing is final", "work in progress", etc.) my only problem is I've seen games go from Alpha to release with major bugs because indie devs don't want to invest the grueling effort of internal issues and just want to keep slapping more toys on the side (again, Minecraft is the [i]perfect[/i] example of this). That really includes the not so fun part of anti-hacker measures outside of just relying on VAC. Lots of indie devs are known for floating the "not fun" parts indefinitely. --- Now don't get me wrong, love Rust. It's fun, worth the money and we'll see many changes... I think if any indie dev is going to put the effort into the game that needs to go into it Garry's team will (considering he's one of the earliest, if not earliest indie dev on Steam), I just wonder how long the "it's alpha" circlejerk will survive fallout after fallout of indie games being released gold without major portions promised to be fixed during alpha and will finally be taken as the ill-informed fan-boy opinion it's always been. [editline]13th January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Scynix;43518179]I'm just confused why everyone is assuming the cheats are *strictly* related to bugs? The vast majority of known ESP cheats, especially by those asshats at AA, are injection based as far as I'm aware. They don't exploit bugs at all. They exploit the engine, or information in the engine.[/QUOTE] It mostly exploits a problem with data trust on the server end. It's less of a bug (bugs are more of an unintentional side-effect) and more of a design flaw. As I understand it though, Unity makes moving that trust to be server-side only a lot easier than it would be in a traditional sense (which would include full rewrites of a lot of core modules of code), but I haven't touched Unity much myself.

[QUOTE=StrangeWill;43518228]Ok, this has no bearing on anything I've said... I've released multiple pieces of software from internal alphas, public alphas, betas and releases. Right, but any time someone complains about game breaking bugs we get "it's an alpha", with no notes on Trello about it (not that Trello is really the platform to handle the large list of fixes needed). I've worked on large projects, we have backlogs that show that we're aware of what needs to be fixed. The signal to noise ratio is pretty high here and it's hard to determine what bugs will be addressed, are even known about by developers. It would be nice to see what kind of issues have been published as needing to be worked on. No, just playing a bit of devil's advocate from someone in the industry. There has always been a strong circlejerk of "well it's an alpha, you can't complain" around any early release (which all are generally the same concept [b]including Rust[/b], which involves "shit will change", "nothing is final", "work in progress", etc.) my only problem is I've seen games go from Alpha to release with major bugs because indie devs don't want to invest the grueling effort of internal issues and just want to keep slapping more toys on the side (again, Minecraft is the [i]perfect[/i] example of this). That really includes the not so fun part of anti-hacker measures outside of just relying on VAC. Lots of indie devs are known for floating the "not fun" parts indefinitely. --- Now don't get me wrong, love Rust. It's fun, worth the money and we'll see many changes... I think if any indie dev is going to put the effort into the game that needs to go into it Garry's team will (considering he's one of the earliest, if not earliest indie dev on Steam), I just wonder how long the "it's alpha" circlejerk will survive fallout after fallout of indie games being released gold without major portions promised to be fixed during alpha and will finally be taken as the ill-informed fan-boy opinion it's always been. [editline]13th January 2014[/editline] It mostly exploits a problem with data trust on the server end. It's less of a bug (bugs are more of an unintentional side-effect) and more of a design flaw. As I understand it though, Unity makes moving that trust to be server-side only a lot easier than it would be in a traditional sense (which would include full rewrites of a lot of core modules of code), but I haven't touched Unity much myself.[/QUOTE] They do have notes on trello actually

[QUOTE=ChargedOracal;43518257]They do have notes on trello actually[/QUOTE] They do have [i]some[/i] notes on Trello, and they've put a lot more in over even the past week or so. However they're missing a massive list of bugs that are being experienced. I don't think you [b]could[/b] place all the bugs on Trello without it being a clusterfuck.

pay 50 bucks for an unfinished game but claimed as stable as fuck such as bf3, everyone act normal. pay 20 bucks for a game that is already alert the consumer that it's still on alpha and buggy, everyone gone wild? oh well.

[QUOTE=StrangeWill;43518228]---[/QUOTE] (Yeah, not doing the split quote thing. Isn't my job and it gives me a headache.) I think circlejerk alpha will be around for a good long while. (That's a good band name, btw.) Heck, it may even be part of their plan to keep it in constant testing/development. It works for Microsoft. Give them a chance. If you released a program into the shitstorm/chip-on-their-shoulder/heathen/entitled/man-children that makes up the banned or soon to be banned half of this forum, how inclined would you be to start holding folks hands through your creative process? Every other word would being countered by cries of ignorant, ripoff, lazy, abusive. And not just once, but look around. Every shitty post is followed up by an array of parroting bandwagoners. Who wants to pander to an audience kids that want it now? for any amount of money? I wouldn't. It's foolish to think FP would, regardless of how other companies do it.

Well damn, didn't expect this to get so much attention but to wrap things up, in alpha they are just trying to get a game put together then in better they will look to fix game breaks (Hacking, duping, NoClip, other exploits) but this game is still super early in development.