[QUOTE=Maximum Over;50146789]If a game leads to "crushing dysphoria", then you need professional metal health assistance. I'm not saying that as an insult, I'm saying it as in I genuinely want you to go get help defining boundaries for how much sway a game has over your life.[/QUOTE]
Unless you're trans don't give advice to trans people like you know something. Kthx.
[editline]17th April 2016[/editline]
Also in response to people saying don't buy the game if you don't want early access, it was part of a humble monthly bundle. Some people got the game blind and are trying to provide feedback about their experiences. Telling them it's early access deal with it doesn't help, that's just a "shut up and go away," tactic. I'm trans, and was really excited when they brought female models into the game. I'm really tired of seeing a dick waving around on my inventory screen, and I consider the lack of choice to be a real problem. If you don't, fine, but you don't have to try to silence people who do consider it a hindrance to their enjoyment of the game.
[QUOTE=LyciaPintella;50148566]Unless you're trans don't give advice to trans people like you know something. Kthx.[/QUOTE]
the bigotry is strong in this one. this is like telling women they couldn't possibly have anything valid to say about men's issues; not only is it ignorant, it just isn't true.
besides, what exactly would they do to make this trans friendly? have the option to transition in game? both women and men wear the same clothes in the game already, and everyone kills everyone... there's not much left to feel marginalized by.
There is no gender problem
*checks thread*
*sees people screaming bigot at each other*
*realises my post caused it*
*laughs because I simply provided a different viewpoint and didn't want to "call the trans card"*
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitposting." - Pascall))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=mrknifey;50148848]the bigotry is strong in this one. this is like telling women they couldn't possibly have anything valid to say about men's issues; not only is it ignorant, it just isn't true.
besides, what exactly would they do to make this trans friendly? have the option to transition in game? both women and men wear the same clothes in the game already, and everyone kills everyone... there's not much left to feel marginalized by.[/QUOTE]
It's not bigotry to tell someone they are unqualified to make suggestions regarding someone else's mental health. Esp when they downplay another person's criticism of the game with the insinuation that they are sick.
And, they could fix the issue by letting us pick our gender in the game.
The idea that it somehow breaks immersion to play a character of a different sex is absurd.
[QUOTE=LyciaPintella;50149933]It's not bigotry to tell someone they are unqualified to make suggestions regarding someone else's mental health. Esp when they downplay another person's criticism of the game with the insinuation that they are sick.
And, they could fix the issue by letting us pick our gender in the game.[/QUOTE]
for all you know, max might be a trained psychologist and your point about him being unqualified would become moot. or he could be trans himself. regardless, it's ignorant to assume that his argument is meaningless based on his gender; and frankly i find it kind of ironic.
as for picking gender, that might well be a nice thing for trans people; unfortunately for them, facepunch seem to have no intention on letting [B]anyone[/B] choose their gender. welcome to the party; you are not being discriminated against or excluded. none of us get to choose.
[QUOTE=LyciaPintella;50149933]It's not bigotry to tell someone they are unqualified to make suggestions regarding someone else's mental health.[/QUOTE]
Telling someone they should avoid doing a leisure activity that currently causes them severe emotional distress is not the sort of thing that requires professional qualifications or special insight. I can tell you not to stand in the middle of a lit campfire, and I'm neither a doctor, a fireman nor a burn victim.
[QUOTE=LyciaPintella;50148566]Unless you're trans don't give advice to trans people like you know something.[/QUOTE]
This has nothing to do with being trans. Whether or not you're trans, experiencing "crushing dysphoria" upon playing a game indicates a need for professional mental health assistance.
[quote]I'm trans[/quote]
Literally nobody cares.
[editline]17th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=LyciaPintella;50149933]Esp when they downplay another person's criticism of the game with the insinuation that they are sick.[/quote]
Citation or STFU. Getting professional mental health assistance doesn't mean one is sick. Stop being part of the problem.
[editline]17th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=mrknifey;50150184]it's ignorant to assume that his argument is meaningless based on his gender; and frankly i find it kind of ironic.[/quote]
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I still dont understand why Garry said that changing your gender doesnt change your gameplay because buying skins also doesnt change my gameplay but I liked it because it changed my character. If i was a Girl before the item skins were implemented I'd probably wouldn't even bother buying skins.I feel like Garry just does what Garry wants, and if you dont agree with him simply hit the road.
Experiencing crushing dysphoria is something trans people have quite a bit, and can be caused by anything. I'm not saying it was just rust, but rust is one of the things that can cause it.
[QUOTE=Valerokai;50156356]Experiencing crushing dysphoria is something trans people have quite a bit, and can be caused by anything. I'm not saying it was just rust, but rust is one of the things that can cause it.[/QUOTE]
And why do we care??
I understand that people want to customize their gender/race. It's fun to customize your avatar, that's why many modern games include this option. As OP has suggested mods can be a sufficient solution for that - if you don't like the way Facepunch is handling diversity - with default random skin implementation, by all means find a modded server and play there (I am sure they will pop up if enough people care about this).
I've been playing for years and being able to modify your character in an FPS is a fairly rare (and recent) option, because it rarely adds anything to the actual game-play. Different character model can also come with a different hit-box, and if this is the case in Rust, I am pro-randomization. This way character customization can't be intentionally abused.
[QUOTE=Valerokai;50156356]Experiencing crushing dysphoria is something trans people have quite a bit, and can be caused by anything. I'm not saying it was just rust, but rust is one of the things that can cause it.[/QUOTE]
I am not sure how any of this is a disphoria issue, but if you are having trouble playing a game because your inventory screen character model has a gender you don't like, you always have the option to "family share" your copy of Rust with a new account to get a different character model.
Christ, why do any of you care. (this is going to address the people complaining about it) There is nothing you can do about it, Garry is not going to change it because you 'feel uncomfortable' or 'don't attach to your character' and its as simple as that. If you want a mod that lets you change your gender, fine, go right ahead and use or develop said mod, (again addressed to people complaining about it) Just don't go around and complain about it with these cringey posts about how it makes you uncomfortable.
[QUOTE=SuperNoob;50157311]I understand that people want to customize their gender/race. It's fun to customize your avatar, that's why many modern games include this option. As OP has suggested mods can be a sufficient solution for that - if you don't like the way Facepunch is handling diversity - with default random skin implementation, by all means find a modded server and play there (I am sure they will pop up if enough people care about this).
I've been playing for years and being able to modify your character in an FPS is a fairly rare (and recent) option, because it rarely adds anything to the actual game-play. Different character model can also come with a different hit-box, and if this is the case in Rust, I am pro-randomization. This way character customization can't be intentionally abused.
I am not sure how any of this is a disphoria issue, but if you are having trouble playing a game because your inventory screen character model has a gender you don't like, you always have the option to "family share" your copy of Rust with a new account to get a different character model.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the family share idea, I'll try it out
I don't get why ppl are so mad about the gender or even the look of the character.
My solution is imo the best:
Add a CHARGED customization service in the main menu, like 5USD to re-roll/customize your character.
Or anything you think that will be viable but charged, it will make ppl chill out and keep their random character. :)
[QUOTE=Junky;50160449]I don't get why ppl are so mad about the gender or even the look of the character.
My solution is imo the best:
Add a CHARGED customization service in the main menu, like 5USD to re-roll/customize your character.
Or anything you think that will be viable but charged, it will make ppl chill out and keep their random character. :)[/QUOTE]
Change the price depending on the percentage of the population that is that gender / race. Swapping to a female should cost 4% more to reflect the fact that they are 51% of the population. This way the gender and race balance now becomes an issue of economics instead of free choice.
Can't see any issues there, flawless idea. All immaculately planned out.
I'm not mad about it, I'm simply providing feedback about it from a perspective that most people in here don't have and don't care to understand. But that's okay, my feedback isn't for fourteen year old armchair psychiatrists, it's for Garry.
Also, licensed mental health providers don't ethically dismiss someone's feedback in a video game based on a person's emotional well-being, so yeah, I knew I wasn't talking to a psychologist before I responded. Or I was responding to someone without ethics in their job. So I chose to believe they were not a mental health professional and were ignorant about their comment instead of taking what they said as an attack.
:speechless:
my point is that you don't know anything about him either. he may have experience in psych issues, he may not. you dismissing his opinion based on an assumption that he knows nothing is not only ignorant, it is pretty ironic given the arguments you yourself have made.
and if you re-read his post, he doesn't actually dismiss the opinion, but express concern about someone experiencing "crushing dysphoria" because they can't choose how their game character looks.
i'm sure garry can independently peruse the depths of his psyche about this whole "i want random player models but it seems some people are overly invested in having a choice" thing without your help.
Oh it was completely dismissive.
"If a game leads to "crushing dysphoria", then you need professional metal health assistance. I'm not saying that as an insult, I'm saying it as in I genuinely want you to go get help defining boundaries for how much sway a game has over your life."
Nothing else included in the post. Just a thinly veiled GTFO and go see a shrink message. Also, being familiar with gender dysphoria and as someone who does receive treatment for it, I can say with certainty that this is not something a professional would say under ethical guidelines.
Same thing you are doing now,
"garry can ... without your help."
Okay, so Garry will do whatever he wants regardless of my feedback. In that case he doesn't need you telling people to STFU about issues they care about. If you wanted this forum thread to drop dead you could just leave it alone and it would do so on its own. I'm not going to reply to myself over and over to bump it. Since the status quo favors you this would be the tactically sound decision, but you just want to tell people to shut their face, and that's not what this thread was supposed to be about.
That being said, I bought the damned game, and I'll make a few posts on a forum if I want to regardless of whether I have your approval or not.
the "dismissiveness" of the post is purely your subjective interpretation; in fact he clarifies that it is not intended as insulting. sure, you can interpret it that way if you like, but that's the joy of written text; it lacks the body language cues that make up about 80% of communication and is well open to misinterpretation.
just as i never said you couldn't post your opinion; i said (and lets clarify/paraphrase here) that garry doesn't need the "transgender" input from you anymore than he needs my "middle age white man" input. he/they have decided they want the characters to be randomised. no hidden anti-trans agenda. no need for crushing dysphoria. it's just a game.
When someone has to qualify that what they are saying is not an insult, it generally is one. Maybe not, but it usually is. At a minimum it's badly worded and misunderstood. But whatever, in the end it's a forum post that few will read or care about.
It's safe to assume that game devs start out with all the youngish to middle aged white guy ideas they need. They are probably aware of what that demo is looking for. There are not very many trans people, so they may well need people to step up and say, "Look, I see you're trying to make a statement to a bunch of people with this gender and race preset, but it impacts some people in a way you probably haven't thought about, because you probably don't know a trans person."
That's it. Some people saying it impacts them in what to you would be a unique way that is difficult to get across via text. The best way I can describe it is imagine you woke up tomorrow with the exact same body but had to pretend to be a woman because everyone in the world told you that you are a woman, and they will shame you if you don't pretend.
That causes people to really care about something that you see as a niche issue, and I think it's important that we have our five minutes of noise so that we're at least in the back of Garry's mind in the event that he rethinks this in a year or two (I know nothing will change near term).
I PMed Garry to avoid having to argue with a bunch of people that really have no idea what I'm trying to get across, but I assume he gets a million of those so that's when I decided to contribute to the thread.
Also, I've already made a trans friend out of this thread so it's a net positive no matter what happens.
I'm sorry, LyciaPintella, but you seem to be taking the comments personally and out of context. You have added connotations that simply aren't there.
[QUOTE=LyciaPintella;50160941]Just a thinly veiled GTFO[/QUOTE]
Valerokai has alluded to playing games as some form of coping mechanism for issues in their real life.
Lets look at it in context:
[QUOTE=Valerokai;50144655]For a lot of us trans folks, this is a big deal. We already had to deal with losing the gender lottery once, and crushing dysphoria isn't something we want to deal with when playing games, usually a form of escapism.[/QUOTE]
Maximum Over's response was that if your coping mechanism is inducing the symptom you are trying alleviate, perhaps you should be seeking professional mental help.
Again in context:
[QUOTE=Maximum Over;50146789]If a game leads to "crushing dysphoria", then you need professional metal health assistance. I'm not saying that as an insult, I'm saying it as in I genuinely want you to go get help defining boundaries for how much sway a game has over your life.[/QUOTE]
There was no "dismissiveness".
Lets Look at it in a different light and see if Maximum's statements still hold up.
Lets pretend that the issue at hand is someone is becoming depressed from being bullied.
[QUOTE]I have to deal with bullies in real life everyday, and crushing depression isn't something I want to deal with when playing games, it is usually a form of escapism.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Maximum Over;50146789]If a game leads to "crushing depression", then you need professional metal health assistance. I'm not saying that as an insult, I'm saying it as in I genuinely want you to go get help defining boundaries for how much sway a game has over your life.[/QUOTE]
Seems like pretty sound advice to this kid getting bullied to me...
A person raises an issue about a video game, another person's only response is to say, "see a shrink." It's purely a method to shut down the person raising the issue, period. Even your reworded example fails because the normal human response is to show some empathy for someone being bullied. You could even link to [URL="http://www.teenhealthandwellness.com/static/hotlines#Bullying"]http://www.teenhealthandwellness.com/static/hotlines#Bullying[/URL] and wish them well, but no, that's too much work. (it was 30 seconds of googling to filter out UK only options).
Really the issue here is anyone who doesn't know what being trans is like needs to stop giving advice to those of us who do. You have no clue what you are talking about. We have a suicide attempt rate of 41% under age 40 in the USA because of how people treat us. You know one small way that people mistreat us? Dismissing our concerns and telling us to go see a shrink instead of listening and learning about our concerns. And to do so over the feature set of a videogame when someone makes a suggestion? Whatever.
And yes, if you want to pull a citation card in a few minutes, I can cite the 41% rate. I'm wondering if you'll put the google-fu in to learn about it or not, though.
The other thing is: most mental health professionals have no idea what to do with us because they aren't educated. We end up paying them to go in there and teach them their jobs. It's super common. But you didn't know that. That's understandable. But in no way does anyone in here who is not trans care at all about people who are. If you did, you wouldn't shit on us over a suggestion for a video game.
Now I'll ask and answer: what other group needs to justify themselves this much to say, "Oh, I don't like how this game handles X, here's why." Not a single one.
[QUOTE=LyciaPintella;50163025]A person raises an issue about a video game, another person's only response is to say, "see a shrink." It's purely a method to shut down the person raising the issue, period. Even your reworded example fails because the normal human response is to show some empathy for someone being bullied. You could even link to [URL="http://www.teenhealthandwellness.com/static/hotlines#Bullying"]http://www.teenhealthandwellness.com/static/hotlines#Bullying[/URL] and wish them well, but no, that's too much work. (it was 30 seconds of googling to filter out UK only options).
Really the issue here is anyone who doesn't know what being trans is like needs to stop giving advice to those of us who do. You have no clue what you are talking about. We have a suicide attempt rate of 41% under age 40 in the USA because of how people treat us. You know one small way that people mistreat us? Dismissing our concerns and telling us to go see a shrink instead of listening and learning about our concerns. And to do so over the feature set of a videogame when someone makes a suggestion? Whatever.
And yes, if you want to pull a citation card in a few minutes, I can cite the 41% rate. I'm wondering if you'll put the google-fu in to learn about it or not, though.
The other thing is: most mental health professionals have no idea what to do with us because they aren't educated. We end up paying them to go in there and teach them their jobs. It's super common. But you didn't know that. That's understandable. But in no way does anyone in here who is not trans care at all about people who are. If you did, you wouldn't shit on us over a suggestion for a video game.
Now I'll ask and answer: what other group needs to justify themselves this much to say, "Oh, I don't like how this game handles X, here's why." Not a single one.[/QUOTE]
Your entire viewpoint is so biased that you can't see how off base you truly are.
There is no issue with the game. The video game is working as intended. The issue is with preference of video game experience. Rust lacks an option to customize your character as you see fit, and because that doesn't align with a given groups ideals, they are complaining. This isn't a trans issue, it just resonates more in that community because it reflects a real-world issue.
You continuously, and incorrectly, allege the suggestion of seeking help as "because we are trans". However, this is your bias. The suggestion of seeking help isn't because of being or not being trans. It is that playing a video game is causing undo stress. This is a concern. It is also the reason why I removed the trans issue from the subtext in the first place.
I don't understand how you differentiate suggesting someone get help and implying that someone get help by referring them to a list of places to get help. It is the same thing.
[QUOTE]But you didn't know that. [/QUOTE]
Don't patronize me. You don't know what I do or do not know, or to what extent if any I can relate or empathize or have experienced.
You seem to be going at great lengths to paint a picture of victimization. Unfortunately the concern at hand is self imposed! There is no actual gameplay effected by what race or gender you end up playing. You simply don't like not being able to choose. The problem with changing it, is the lack of choice was added for a specific reason.
Look at it through the Schrödinger's cat paradox. If your paperdoll was replaced with a set of boxes and there was never a way for you to know what race or gender you received, would you still care? Would it effect your gaming experience?
It is only in knowing that you didn't get what you want where the problem arises.
[QUOTE=LyciaPintella;50163025]what other group needs to justify themselves this much to say, "Oh, I don't like how this game handles X, here's why."[/QUOTE]
I would assume that the group of streamers that asked for streamer mode had to explain why.
The group of people suffering from vertigo had to argue why to remove head bob or at least disable it.
My viewpoint isn't biased, it's informed. We haven't even been talking about the game for a long time; that switched over into a bitchfest about individual forum posts a while ago. So, I'm sorry if I was responding to your most recent comments that were indeed not about the game, but complaining that I wasn't passive enough in my previous responses.
[QUOTE=utilitron;50164119]Don't patronize me. You don't know what I do or do not know, or to what extent if any I can relate or empathize or have experienced.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't being patronizing. If you knew jack shit about anything having to do with trans experiences you wouldn't have quoted a kindergarten-level basic description of trans issues that I posted and painted it as biased. Or you would have shown some knowledge by now, you've had several chances and all you are interested in is shutting me up. I've already told you how you can achieve that goal.
[QUOTE=utilitron;50164119]There is no actual gameplay effected by what race or gender you end up playing.[/QUOTE]
We haven't been talking about the game for quite some time. We've been talking about an ill-informed forum reply that told someone to go find a shrink when they shared a typical trans experience.
[QUOTE=utilitron;50164119]I don't understand how you differentiate suggesting someone get help and implying that someone get help by referring them to a list of places to get help. It is the same thing.[/QUOTE]
I demonstrated the difference between "go see a shrink" and showing some kind of empathy and maybe some kind of support, and I explained pretty directly why telling someone to go find a shrink REALLY doesn't help trans people. I'm not sure what else you are looking for there.
My solution would be to keep the character generation fixed to Steam ID, but also incorporate an identifier unique to a given server into the seed for the algorithm.
This would allow for consistency in player identification on a particular server, whilst giving the player the smallest amount of choice in what their player model looks like.
[QUOTE=th0rianite;50164198]My solution would be to keep the character generation fixed to Steam ID, but also incorporate an identifier unique to a given server into the algorithm.
This would allow for consistency in player identification on a particular server, whilst giving the player the smallest amount of choice in what their player model looks like.[/QUOTE]
I could go for that.
[QUOTE=Valerokai;50156356]Experiencing crushing dysphoria is something trans people have quite a bit, and can be caused by anything. I'm not saying it was just rust, but rust is one of the things that can cause it.[/QUOTE]
Look, as a friend of transgendered people I sympathize with people who have a hard time with their transition and with some of the unfairness in this world. However, this is a video game where literally [I]no-one[/I] has the option to represent themselves with their gender and the game is not a representation of who you are. Do you feel gender dysphoria when you are forced to play as one character in a video game and have no options whatsoever? If you are transitioned to being a woman, do you feel stressed when you play Super Mario 64? If it's the opposite, do you feel stressed when you're playing as Tomb Raider? If that's the case, I think that games are the least of your worries.
Here's the thing - at some point catering to the transgendered community takes away from everyone else. At some point the transgendered community has to give a little themselves. Why? One, it's equality, and two it's a fact of life. If you can't handle playing your opposite gender in a video game, you're not going to handle a lot of things in life. This doesn't go for just transgendered people, but everyone.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50164281] If you are transitioned to being a woman, do you feel stressed when you play Super Mario 64? If it's the opposite, do you feel stressed when you're playing as Tomb Raider? If that's the case, I think that games are the least of your worries. [/QUOTE]
Mario doesn't wave his dick around on the inventory screen, and Laura keeps her vagina covered.
[QUOTE=wauterboi;50164281]Here's the thing - at some point catering to the transgendered community takes away from everyone else. At some point the transgendered community has to give a little themselves.[/QUOTE]
I think you're overestimating the impact that having two (?) trans people coming in here and saying why this makes us uncomfortable is going to have. It probably won't change the game direction, and it certainly won't impact your life in a measurable way. We're not forcing anything on anyone and we lack the clout to do so even if we wanted to.
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