Blizzard On Heroes Of The Storm, Female Designs In MOBAs
66 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Marik Bentusi;42950611]The last questions were so insistent, so blunt and out of left field that, in combination with the title, they just invoke the impression it was done for clicks
, but
I don't think they were completely unjustified.
Most people don't even think about ridiculous battle swimsuits and combat stilettos anymore, they've accepted them as horny teen bait and moved on and know it only makes those uncomfortable that haven't gotten used to them yet.
But ignoring it doesn't solve the problem obviously. Even if you take away all "social justice bullshit" it still leads to creative restrictions when female characters have to be sexy 20-something Caucasians [url="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GuysSmashGirlsShoot"]that deal damage from afar[/url]/magically (or are lightly armored assassins). Male character designs tend to offer much more diversity, with sexy 20-something Caucasians being only one variant.
So I can understand the Blizzard guy feeling uncomfortable when receiving critique for doing something normal, and RPS being upset it's even considered normal. If they didn't just clickbait. The topic was so aggressively pursued it's hard to tell for me. Then again, PR guy said there was little time, so maybe this was just exceedingly important for them or something.[/QUOTE]
Well, battle bikinis and combat stilettos really bother me and I'm sure as hell not going to stop complaining about them.
That doesn't mean I'm going to go on an obnoxious crusade though. When you're obnoxious about something, people disregard what you're saying.
[editline]24th November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Hamsterjuice;42956201]i think we can all agree video games need more homoeroticsm
[editline]23rd November 2013[/editline]
lots of dicks and/or butts[/QUOTE]
just swap the outfits around
women get all the armour, men wear next to nothing
literally everybody is happy
why do you think a video game developer, who are making a game where the primary mode of engagement is non-diegetic, should care about social issues?
having non-shitty female character design has nothing to do with diegesis
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;42954626]Because they're asking the wrong questions. We care about the reporting being a middle man and protecting and informing consumers, not taking money to lie to consumers out right. We don't care about this SJW BS[/QUOTE]
i care.
im all for better, non sexualized designs of female characters but dear god, being a dick to devs (for the sake of ~shocking~ interviews) is not gonna solve anything
you do have to admit that kerrigan's purple ass is pretty fucking ridiculous, especially when she's supposed to be the apex overlord of a galactic hive mind
And it's not like they were just following SC1 on that. In SC1 she was stitched up and bleeding from the eyes.
Hoora, more jouranalists dishing out social justice.
Time to remove RPS from the update feed?
Remove RPS, their article quality went to shit a few months after being removed from here now they're very closely being next to Kotaku for people who think they're better than Kotaku.
[QUOTE=Hamsterjuice;42956312]having non-shitty female character design has nothing to do with diegesis[/QUOTE]
so you're going to take that up with the person taking the pre-existing depictions of these characters and implementing them? it's not like the majority of blizzard's female characters are shitty anyway.
jesus RPS really needs to tone it down, they're a massive shitpool of "omg women are objectified fight the patriarchy!" nowadays.
the blizzard dude answered it really well i think, they're not out to send a message, they're going for a very comic booky/just plain cool looking sets of characters. Kerrigan is a fantastic design cause it's sexy, it's feminine, but at the same time it's evil and in context fairly disturbing. It's just a badass design, I don't care if i'm looking at a girl with a flat chest in a game or a girl with fuckin j cups with just nipple tassles on, if they have a cool design that's all that matters to me.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;42958037]the blizzard dude answered it real well i think, they're not out to send a message, they're going for a very comic booky/just plain cool looking sets of characters.[/QUOTE]
Art and games don't exist in a vacuum.
[editline]23rd November 2013[/editline]
You're always sending a message, even if you don't intend to.
Yes I am fully aware that you can take a message out of literally anything in the world, Max. The idea is that they flat out said there's no message to be had, which means if you try and take something from it you're looking at it for all the wrong reasons.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;42958037]jesus RPS really needs to tone it down, they're a massive shitpool of "omg women are objectified fight the patriarchy!" nowadays.
the blizzard dude answered it really well i think, they're not out to send a message, they're going for a very comic booky/just plain cool looking sets of characters. Kerrigan is a fantastic design cause it's sexy, it's feminine, but at the same time it's evil and in context fairly disturbing. It's just a badass design, I don't care if i'm looking at a girl with a flat chest in a game or a girl with fuckin j cups with just nipple tassles on, if they have a cool design that's all that matters to me.[/QUOTE]
If others aren't feeling the same perception as you are, then it's not really a good design. Why are people upset at critique directed at the narrative/design choices that are prevalent in the industry? It's hardly different from the talk about DRM.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42951872]Why do people who regularly complain about game journalists are also not satisfied when they start asking actual questions...?[/QUOTE]
Because they were awful questions on RPS side only to spark controversy.
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42958301]Art and games don't exist in a vacuum.
[editline]23rd November 2013[/editline]
You're always sending a message, even if you don't intend to.[/QUOTE]
and the strength of the message is super greatly exaggerated, by the way - the "patriarchy" and the "sexism" come from dozens of hundreds of years of male dominated culture, not from this newfangled form of media propagating something new - it's about men being dickbags in general
yeah it's a problem
yeah it needs to be fought
yeah we'd probably be better off if it were different
but it's not something that will change from people yelling about it, it will change from more women joining the industry and more women joining the ranks of core gamers
right now, it's like trying to extinguish a fire by trying to cool down the air surrounding it - it won't do jack shit - it might look like it's working, but it's just making the effects look less bad
attacking video game sexism with words will just make a few less established and more open minded developers to go out of their way to try harder not to be sexist, but this effect will still be artificial and ultimately it will be just as sexist as before, just in a different, less apparent manner
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;42958685]If others aren't feeling the same perception as you are, then it's not really a good design. Why are people upset at critique directed at the narrative/design choices that are prevalent in the industry? It's hardly different from the talk about DRM.[/QUOTE]
Because they don't like change.
While I do agree that these issues need to be looked at in the games industry and media at large, I would also have to agree that RPS did a pretty poor job. I'm guessing they didn't want canned answers to otherwise difficult questions, but it came off as way too blunt and aggressive. It reads more like an imposition of a viewpoint rather than actual questions designed to provoke thought. Its not a great reporting style to get good and thoughtful answers. I never liked RPS in the first place, it has always about overreactions and fearmongering, its just now that they've turned that type of writing to things most FPer's don't like, they've done an about face and now want it off the site.
[editline]23rd November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mastahamma;42958875]but it's not something that will change from people yelling about it, it will change from more women joining the industry and more women joining the ranks of core gamers
[/QUOTE]
I'd be interested in seeing if there are any actual studies (not super informal polls on gaming websites) about the number of women in the game's industry and gamers. If we could get that data, then interview people on why or why they aren't those two things, we could start to come up with better ideas on how to fix this issue.
[QUOTE=Banned?;42954882]Time to ask those hard hitting questions that can take time to extrapolate on and answer thoroughly just as we're running out of interview time totally out of the blue!
Then he went on to write an article about how the atmosphere changed when he asked those questions and how the Blizzard guy was [I]resistant[/I] to answering such things like he didn't spring this kinda stuff on him near the end of the time they had together, in a fashion that was not only totally out of the blue but not even hinted toward talking about in relation to what was asked earlier. There was no segue into the subject, he just abruptly went "Hey this video game is cool and all but don't you think this stuff can be really sexist too?" [I]I[/I] felt uncomfortable for Browder because it was such a tone shift the knocking down of the Berlin wall was a more subtle act.[/QUOTE]
I felt like the journalist didn't really care; I felt like he only dropped it in there because he was paid to put it in there at the end at some time to get that "obligatory thought-provoking questions" quota in by the end of the week. I don't mind when journalists put things like this under a microscope but I felt like I was shamelessly toyed with, just like all the other yellow journalism I see.
[editline]23rd November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42958301]Art and games don't exist in a vacuum.
[editline]23rd November 2013[/editline]
You're always sending a message, even if you don't intend to.[/QUOTE]
That seems to imply that artists are to be held responsible for the way their work is interpreted in all cases. Is J.D. Salinger responsible because a few people thought that his book meant "kill all the phonies?"
[editline]23rd November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42954771]I really [I]love[/I] the term "white knight" and how it’s used by gamers like it’s a bad thing to stand up for other people. Like, the entire idea behind the phrase white knighting is defending somebody or something or a group of people when you have no personal stake in it, which is hilarious, that's implying RPS should just be incredibly selfish.
How dare people consider more than the straight male audience...
[/QUOTE]
That seems to imply that women aren't strong enough to stand up for themselves; that these male video game journalists have a responsibility to stand up for those who are incapable of standing up for themselves, in this case women. I disagree with that notion.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;42958037]jesus RPS really needs to tone it down, they're a massive shitpool of "omg women are objectified fight the patriarchy!" nowadays.
the blizzard dude answered it really well i think, they're not out to send a message, they're going for a very comic booky/just plain cool looking sets of characters. Kerrigan is a fantastic design cause it's sexy, it's feminine, but at the same time it's evil and in context fairly disturbing. It's just a badass design, I don't care if i'm looking at a girl with a flat chest in a game or a girl with fuckin j cups with just nipple tassles on, if they have a cool design that's all that matters to me.[/QUOTE]
even if they're not out to send a message they're still sending a message. intentions means nothing.
[QUOTE=sp00ks;42960161]even if they're not out to send a message they're still sending a message. intentions means nothing.[/QUOTE]
all that matters is the dominant reading, and the dominant reading of any heroes of the storm characters isn't that they're a dumb bimbo incapable of anything but sucking dick and cooking dinner
its in the title
"heroes"
[QUOTE=sp00ks;42960161]even if they're not out to send a message they're still sending a message. intentions means nothing.[/QUOTE]
Not everyone is going to analyze what they're thinking, saying or making when it comes to the effect on the world around them. They just don't give that much of a shit, especially when it comes to a video game like Heroes of the Storm. Throwing questions like the ones at the end of the interview isn't going to change their thought process about it either, especially if they've never considered it before because all they're working with is already created characters and finding a way to put them into their new game.
As somebody who have studied to produce documentaries and had to deal with interviewing, I can tell you this is as bad as an interview can go. It was driven to make the interviewer's point and gave as little freedom as possible to the interviewed- the only real question he could answer was 'what crowd do you want to appeal?'
In quality and respect of the treated subject this was more similar to a fox news tv report than an actual interview.
My humble suggestion would be to either read carefully the chapter about interviewing in [i]The Shut Up and Shoot Documentary Guide[/i] by A.Q.Artis, which I found brilliant, or hire someone else for the job.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;42958037]jesus RPS really needs to tone it down, they're a massive shitpool of "omg women are objectified fight the patriarchy!" nowadays.
the blizzard dude answered it really well i think, they're not out to send a message, they're going for a very comic booky/just plain cool looking sets of characters. Kerrigan is a fantastic design cause it's sexy, it's feminine, but at the same time it's evil and in context fairly disturbing. It's just a badass design, I don't care if i'm looking at a girl with a flat chest in a game or a girl with fuckin j cups with just nipple tassles on, if they have a cool design that's all that matters to me.[/QUOTE]
well i dont think its a cool design i think its fucking dumb. i dont see how anyone is fighting the patriarchy by pointing out they think its fucking dumb
[QUOTE=thisispain;42962033]well i dont think its a cool design i think its fucking dumb. i dont see how anyone is fighting the patriarchy by pointing out they think its fucking dumb[/QUOTE]
Honestly Kerrigan's heels thing is kickass imho. Fuck man, have you even *tried* walking in heels? fuck if you can fight in heals i'm not ever ever messing with a woman who can fight in heels
[QUOTE=kenji;42962643]Honestly Kerrigan's heels thing is kickass imho. Fuck man, have you even *tried* walking in heels? fuck if you can fight in heals i'm not ever ever messing with a woman who can fight in heels[/QUOTE]
but what purpose do the heels have? character design aside, she spent a big chunk of her life being an alien, and before that a soldier (in boots), so where did she find the time and energy learning the ability to fight and run in heels when she's been in recuperation after being an alien?
like giving samus heels in metroid other m. like, why? why does she wear heels... inside of power armor boots? there is no purpose to the heels there either. it's poor design. it's wank material.
kerrigan's clothing design in the starcraft 2 expansion is kinda shit.
but it really isnt anything compared to all of the LoL females which has nothing to do with blizzard so all of the "controversial" questions are misfired and misguided, in my opinion.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;42962745]but what purpose do the heels have? character design aside, she spent a big chunk of her life being an alien, and before that a soldier (in boots), so where did she find the time and energy learning the ability to fight and run in heels when she's been in recuperation after being an alien?
like giving samus heels in metroid other m. like, why? why does she wear heels... inside of power armor boots? there is no purpose to the heels there either. it's poor design. it's wank material.
kerrigan's clothing design in the starcraft 2 expansion is kinda shit.
but it really isnt anything compared to all of the LoL females which has nothing to do with blizzard so all of the "controversial" questions are misfired and misguided, in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
I always thought it was to clash with the amount of dick-having people in the game in a respectable amount of power, i mean the only other seemingly badass chick was Nova, who was just a grunt in some respects. I mean she went from a (talented) field op to *the* queen bitch of the universe.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;42962745]but what purpose do the heels have? character design aside, she spent a big chunk of her life being an alien, and before that a soldier (in boots), so where did she find the time and energy learning the ability to fight and run in heels when she's been in recuperation after being an alien?
like giving samus heels in metroid other m. like, why? why does she wear heels... inside of power armor boots? there is no purpose to the heels there either. it's poor design. it's wank material.
kerrigan's clothing design in the starcraft 2 expansion is kinda shit.
but it really isnt anything compared to all of the LoL females which has nothing to do with blizzard so all of the "controversial" questions are misfired and misguided, in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
completely agreed
[editline]23rd November 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=kenji;42962789]I always thought it was to clash with the amount of dick-having people in the game in a respectable amount of power, i mean the only other seemingly badass chick was Nova, who was just a grunt in some respects. I mean she went from a (talented) field op to *the* queen bitch of the universe.[/QUOTE]
everyone has different opinions about character design, but to me the fact that this is so widespread makes me thing people are super-lazy. especially sexuality
sexuality is so powerful as a force, to reduce any sexual impact to simply giving people huge asses makes it trite and shallow as heck. and thats only if you think that the sexuality in games has a point beyond just getting more attention and sales, which is optimistic to say the least
[QUOTE=thisispain;42962794]to reduce any sexual impact to simply giving people huge asses makes it trite and shallow as heck. and thats only if you think that the sexuality in games has a point beyond just getting more attention and sales, which is optimistic to say the least[/QUOTE]
there are reasons for things if written well. if you cannot find a reason for a thing, then it probably doesn't belong. this concept is not difficult for various character designers, concept artists, and story writers on a single team [b]that aren't complete shit.[/b] since starcraft 2 however and latter WoW expansions my belief that blizzard has a competent writing team anymore has slipped completely from my grasp.
at least riot doesnt pretend to be good character designers. all of their female characters are consistently bad.
i think as budgets, time-lines, and teams get bigger you lose the concept of art coming from a singular statement and instead the story-lines and themes basically get designed by committee.
doom was designed by a tiny team and even though none of it had a real purpose you could tell each and every single thing in the game was a labour of love. this is something even id software has lost.
i like how gender equality and oversexualization of women in games is generally more of an issue than violence in video games
having characters run around senselessly killing each other is a-okay but throw on some shitty character designs like skimpy clothing for a character that should be covered from head to toe in armor and you best get your torch and pitchfork ready
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