BioWare apologizes for Mass Effect: Andromeda's Hainly Abrams character
63 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Qaus;52063616]This is entirely plausible actually, but the fact of the matter is without explaining this to the player it gives false impressions of real world present day trans people.[/QUOTE]
in a fantasy/sci fi universe, the rule is
unless it's said otherwise, the audience assumes what's true in the real world is true in the world of the story
If it's never shown that trans people are viewed differently than how they're viewed in the real world, the assumption is that they're viewed in the same way. Which is to say, that it isn't just some casual thing everyone is okay with.
the thing is, if ANY character other than Ryder was involved in this exchange, it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad. If this character said this to someone else, and they had a chance to respond, that would tell us how people view trans people in the world of ME. Even if their response was to make no note of it whatsoever. But because she's talking to us, someone who only knows what we're told about the world of the story, we learn nothing.
Has this ever been done correctly in a game before?? If not, how could you pull it off if you're not supposed to be able to tell they are trans and they're not supposed to tell you either??
I know the above question might come off as ignorant but I mean no harm by it, the question just came across my mind as I was reading this thread.
There's a reason why squad members butt in so much in ME. It's because they tell us as the audience how people with their perspective view what happens.
It's why Ashley is such a whiner. It's because she exists to tell the player how religious conservative humans, a very big part of our world, view what's going on. The universe is fleshed out as we come to understand the perspectives of the different societies around us.
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52063664]Has this ever been done correctly in a game before?? If not, how could you pull it off if you're not supposed to be able to tell they are trans and they're not supposed to tell you either??
I know the above question might come off as ignorant but I mean no harm by it, the question just came across my mind as I was reading this thread.[/QUOTE]
By giving a character some actual depth, this can be easily accomplished. It just depends on whether you want to spend the time writing the character's dialogue or not.
In this case they didn't spend the time.
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;52063685]By giving a character some actual depth, this can be easily accomplished. It just depends on whether you want to spend the time writing the character's dialogue or not.
In this case they didn't spend the time.[/QUOTE]
No, I understand the way they wrote the character is bad. I'm wondering how it would be done properly.
[editline]5th April 2017[/editline]
Seems like it would be better to just have the character not mention it period.
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52063695]No, I understand the way they wrote the character is bad. I'm wondering how it would be done properly.
[editline]5th April 2017[/editline]
Seems like it would be better to just have the character not mention it period.[/QUOTE]
I think the way bioware addressed the problem and how they intended to fix it is a very simple way of going about it. It makes sense from a design perspective at least.
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52063664]Has this ever been done correctly in a game before?? If not, how could you pull it off if you're not supposed to be able to tell they are trans and they're not supposed to tell you either??
I know the above question might come off as ignorant but I mean no harm by it, the question just came across my mind as I was reading this thread.[/QUOTE]
I mean it really depends. It could be as simple as you having to look into some character's history and you find out they used to use a male or female name. Maybe there's some codex entry about cosmetic surgery and sexual reassignment somewhere. Maybe some alien from a more conservative culture that more closely mirrors our own inquires about it, and asks the questions someone from modern society might ask.
There are a million things you could do. Just make sure the player comes away from the experience knowing more about the world and the people in it.
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52063664]Has this ever been done correctly in a game before?? If not, how could you pull it off if you're not supposed to be able to tell they are trans and they're not supposed to tell you either??
I know the above question might come off as ignorant but I mean no harm by it, the question just came across my mind as I was reading this thread.[/QUOTE]
I would write it much like how they're attempting to fix it. I could try to salvage the introductory scene being her telling you she's trans but that's like trying to polish a turd, she shouldn't be telling you then.
For a more personal scene after getting to know her, I'll try to write an exchange that isn't dog puke while hitting all the same notes;
[quote]
Hainly: "Hey, um, Ryder. Can I talk to you?"
Ryder: "Sure thing. What do you need?"
Hainly: "It's just that, well, I've come to really like and trust you, so, I guess I just feel like you should know that, well...when we first met you asked me why I decided to come to Andromeda.
Well, the real reason is- well not the exact reason - what I'm trying to say is I'm...transgendered. I know it's not a big deal these days, but I felt like you should know."
Ryder: "Sure, but, what does you being trans have to do with coming out here?"
Hainly: "Oh right...So, back home, I just like, worked in this dead end lab. My life was going nowhere and I just got sick of it, y'know? I didn't want to be stuck there forever. I, discovered, I guess, that I was trans at the same time. So, the real reason I came out here, is to just be myself for the first time. I know it's corny, but I wanted you to know about it, and that I appreciate you being here to help me along the way."[/quote]
Now I don't know much about this character or writing or anything, but that's so much more natural than what they have. One, they talk like an actual fucking person and not like a writer. Two, they don't share their male name which they would never do. Three, it addresses the "nobody cares" thing while also explaining why it does still matter to [I]this[/I] specific character. And four, it ties back to her central identity and why she came here in a way that isn't forced.
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52063695]No, I understand the way they wrote the character is bad. I'm wondering how it would be done properly.
[editline]5th April 2017[/editline]
Seems like it would be better to just have the character not mention it period.[/QUOTE]
see, it's weird
the thing is that, this is a fictional universe. I know nothing about it, except what I'm told. So ideally, everything I'm told will tell me as much about the universe as possible.
So when you only have a couple characters that represent a certain perspective, be that the perspective of an alien, a religious person, or a trans person, you want that person to reflect as much of that perspective as possible. If I learn something about Ashley, I also learn about all the people in the universe that are like Ashley.
Most trans people wouldn't openly proclaim that they're trans for no real reason. So if you're only going to have one trans character, it seems kinda weird to have them be part of what I would assume is the tiny minority that would. Because what that communicates to me as an audience member is "trans people in this universe announce that they're trans whenever the opportunity arises".
Yes, this is ME:A's biggest problem...
Where were everyone's complaints when that battle maison trainer in pokemon XY didn't get anything other than a few lines of dialog before and after battle?
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52063772]I would write it much like how they're attempting to fix it. I could try to salvage the introductory scene being her telling you she's trans but that's like trying to polish a turd, she shouldn't be telling you then.
For a more personal scene after getting to know her, I'll try to write an exchange that isn't dog puke while hitting all the same notes;
Now I don't know much about this character or writing or anything, but that's so much more natural than what they have. One, they talk like an actual fucking person and not like a writer. Two, they don't share their male name which they would never do. Three, it addresses the "nobody cares" thing while also explaining why it does still matter to [I]this[/I] specific character. And four, it ties back to her central identity and why she came here in a way that isn't forced.[/QUOTE]
the problem I have with your scene is that it runs into a problem that a lot of ME scenes have, where side characters just start monologueing at the main character. Information is something the player should pursue, not something they should be told.
I think if you want to have a trans character, the ideal way to do it is to have it be a character with a romantic subplot. It's just where you'd get the most material to work with. It's a personal subject that you really need a personal story to explore naturally.
I doubt anyone would ever do it though, cause doing it wrong would be a fucking trainwreck considering how hot the subject is. And I'm completely certain that Bioware would absolutely fuck it up in every way imaginable. Fuck, even if you did it right I'm sure you'd make a ton of people angry.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;52063822]the problem I have with your scene is that it runs into a problem that a lot of ME scenes have, where side characters just start monologueing at the main character. Information is something the player should pursue, not something they should be told.[/QUOTE]
I think this is a major issue with every Bioware game, usually characters just dump a ton of exposition on you in the most boring way. Sure, having a in-depth lore and setting is quite great but overall it should be done in a more entertaining and interesting way.
As always, I don't want to overly compliment the Witcher 3 but I am not familiar with the setting and the game just eases you into the experience without providing way to much information to the player. All the infos are there if you want to gain more knowledge but without having the player to soak up every sort of exposition along the journey.
That's why Bioware games get really tedious for me after a while.
I have played more than 60 hours of this game and have never heard this character talk about being trans. I just never picked this one specific option to ask about her backstory because I did not care about some random NPC's story.
Literally why are people complaining.
Honestly all I can say after reading through this thread is who gives a flying fuck if you're not represented in a way that you don't feel is right, if you're just casually represented in a game as opposed to be focused on in a way that fucking details your backstory, shit happens, deal with it, alot of people in this game only had small backstories and weren't represented aswell as they could have been, but because of this one Trans' character, gotta make a big deal because being Trans' is apparently a big deal and it's not something to take lightly, they're Human like everyone else, why bother making a big deal out of one person over everyone else just because they're Trans'? Like let's make a big deal about Suvi because she's gay, or Gil because he's also gay, oh wait no they're part of the Tempest crew so their backstory WILL be somewhat fleshed out and told to us decently, but fuck me in the ass, a person part of the Prodromos colony isn't given a fleshed out story to tell us, so that's misrepresentation.
Why is it so unbelievable for someone to just outright tell an important person, a Pathfinder, the very Pathfinder that gave them a purpose in the Andromeda Galaxy and a reason to come out of Stasis, that back in the Milky Way, they used to be known as someone else but felt like joining the Andromeda Initiative was a way for them to start their new life with their new identity, the person they consider them self to truly be?
Despite all this being my opinion on the matter, people need to stop being so sensitive about shit, you're not being misrepresented, misrepresentation would be you're a cunt and hate all cis gender people.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52063862]I have played more than 60 hours of this game and have never heard this character talk about being trans. I just never picked this one specific option to ask about her backstory because I did not care about some random NPC's story.
Literally why are people complaining.[/QUOTE]
Have you tried reading?
people want to keep trans people as special snowflakes instead of making them seem like normal people, defeats the purpouse of equality and all that jazz
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52063664]Has this ever been done correctly in a game before?? If not, how could you pull it off if you're not supposed to be able to tell they are trans and they're not supposed to tell you either??
I know the above question might come off as ignorant but I mean no harm by it, the question just came across my mind as I was reading this thread.[/QUOTE]
There was a FTM transcharacter in Dragon Age Inquisition and as far as I can remember, that was handled fairly well(I might be wrong). At least far better than letting a character immediately introduce themselves as: Hey I'm trans, here's a quest.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52063862]I have played more than 60 hours of this game and have never heard this character talk about being trans. I just never picked this one specific option to ask about her backstory because I did not care about some random NPC's story.
Literally why are people complaining.[/QUOTE]
Because people literally are frustrated about Bioware literally botching a character whose gender identity is brought front and center for the sake of diversity. Just because you literally didn't ask about her backstory doesn't mean it's literally not an issue.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52063873]Have you tried reading?[/QUOTE]
Yeah and the points made are fucking stupid.
Like this one
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;52063822]the problem I have with your scene is that it runs into a problem that a lot of ME scenes have, where side characters just start monologueing at the main character. Information is something the player should pursue, not something they should be told.[/quote]
You only get access to this information if you specifically [I]ask the character about it[/I], after [I]earning their trust[/I].
This random NPC does not stop you in your tracks to be like "HEY PATHFINDER, THANKS FOR WALKING NEAR ME. HERE IS MY LIFE STORY." You have to stop, talk to them, get curious about their life and why they decided to take part of the initiative (a really fucking specific topic that kind of asks for a very specific answer), and only then do you get this info. You may say it seems weird someone would open up about this so easily, but you just helped them by basically giving them a god damn house to live in, so I think they do owe you a bit of opening up if your character decides to ask them in a passing conversation.
On the same post while we're at it.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;52063822]I think if you want to have a trans character, the ideal way to do it is to have it be a character with a romantic subplot. It's just where you'd get the most material to work with. It's a personal subject that you really need a personal story to explore naturally.
I doubt anyone would ever do it though, cause doing it wrong would be a fucking trainwreck considering how hot the subject is. And I'm completely certain that Bioware would absolutely fuck it up in every way imaginable. Fuck, even if you did it right I'm sure you'd make a ton of people angry.[/QUOTE]
Catherine did it, but not for the protagonist. [I]Some[/I] character is transgender and you only learn it very late in the story regarding a romantic relationship she had that went south due to her partner learning about it and not being able to deal with it.
Also, Andromeda has a pretty touching and endearing friendship subplot with a gay character [sp]who's very close to a woman and who decides to become a father via insemination, essentially starting a relationship that goes beyond just carnal interest[/sp] and the player gets involved rather naturally by talking to the character in question several times, with said character slowly opening up to you and revealing more and more intimate things about his life, starting with relatively menial things like his hobbies and taking the length of a whole game to actually go into more detail.
If there's one thing this game does well it's the relationships between NPCs and the protag.
[QUOTE=Mynamewontfi;52063907]There was a FTM transcharacter in Dragon Age Inquisition and as far as I can remember, that was handled fairly well(I might be wrong). At least far better than letting a character immediately introduce themselves as: Hey I'm trans, here's a quest.[/QUOTE]
I think I've heard about a trans character being in DA's canon, but IIRC they only appeared in a promotional comic that was separate from the events of the games. I never played any of the DA games so I can't be sure, but that's what I've heard.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52063862]I have played more than 60 hours of this game and have never heard this character talk about being trans. I just never picked this one specific option to ask about her backstory because I did not care about some random NPC's story.
Literally why are people complaining.[/QUOTE]
Maybe because attempting to represent transgender people with a character who does so in a way that does little more than check a diversity checkbox in the most vapid way possible is, in fact, an awful and hamfisted way to represent transgender people?
I personally don't care about gender identities or whatever in games, but just have a little tact.
This entire issue is pretty much as asinine and forced as people bitching about Symmetra's autism in Overwatch.
Being trans should not be a big deal and this game treats it like it's not a big deal. Saying something like a transgender character should [I]never[/I] be brought up in a video game unless entire walls of backstory and elaborate narration are built around them is both fucking stupid and completely goes against the point of making characters like these in the first place. They're [I]not supposed to be special[/I]. That's [I]the point.[/I]
Why the hell is there so much emphasis on it?
Trans people in real life aren't like annoying vegans, with every chance they get saying "btw I'm trans"
But it seems like Bioware loves doing this, it just looks so forced and ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;52064001]Maybe because attempting to represent transgender people with a character who does so in a way that does little more than check a diversity checkbox in the most vapid way possible is an awful and hamfisted way to represent transgender people?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, no. Have you actually played the game ? Because there's no such thing as a diversity checklist in it. Because one character happily shares details about her past life when asked to does not mean the team put up a big fucking whiteboard with a list of all the minorities that needed to be represented, ticking them off as they went along.
The looks of characters, their gender and their sexual preferences are all pretty much picked at random, as it should be. There is [I]one[/I] character whose character development is directly tied to their homosexuality, and even then it's so well handled they never outright state "Hey Ryder, I'M GAY! DID YOU KNOW THAT?". The information simply becomes obvious enough as you progress along their subplot, as it becomes relevant to the plot in question.
[editline]6th April 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52064014]Why the hell is there so much emphasis on it?
Trans people in real life aren't like annoying vegans, with every chance they get saying "btw I'm trans"
But it seems like Bioware loves doing this, it just looks so forced and ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
It's one passing mention upon asking someone about their backstory, specifically [I]the reason they left the galaxy.[/I] I'm starting to feel compelled to actually go and record it so people understand how much you need to go out of your way to obtain the information.
me2's drugged up hellraiser androgynous flat tits will-fuck-anything-that-moves Subject Zero was okay, passing mention of trans character is strictly forbidden by the imperial codex
this is such a garbage way to introduce a character
its like skyrim where everyone tells you their backstory instead of just saying hello, except now their backstory is based around a very touchy or controversial subject.
[QUOTE]I don't claim to be the best blacksmith in Whiterun. Eorlund Gray-Mane's got that honor. The man's steel is legendary. All I ask is a fair chance. Ever since I was raped by my abusive father I've always been out to prove that there's a place for a strong woman in Skyrim.[/QUOTE]
like what the fuck
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52063951]
You only get access to this information if you specifically [I]ask the character about it[/I], after [I]earning their trust[/I].
[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry but this is bullshit. You set up an outpost, you didn't gain the character's trust. The dialogue option is "Why did you choose to come to Andromeda?" and she immediately tells you she used to be called Stephan. It's like asking someone why they came along and the first thing out of their mouth was "Well you see I'm gay..."
Krem from Dragon Age Inquisition is a much better take on a trans character. For one the character will only talk about it after you get to know them through a group of friends, and when they do they're clearly sharing the information with you cautiously, not just blurting out their entire history and telling you their old name.
It should also be noted that unlike in Mass Effect there's no form of hormone therapy or surgery a person can get in the world of Dragon Age, so a transgendered person will always be stuck with the body of the sex they were born to. So not being outed as trans is infinitely harder in that world.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52064022]Yeah, no. Have you actually played the game ? Because there's no such thing as a diversity checklist in it. Because one character happily shares details about her past life when asked to does not mean the team put up a big fucking whiteboard with a list of all the minorities that needed to be represented, ticking them off as they went along.
The looks of characters, their gender and their sexual preferences are all pretty much picked at random, as it should be. There is [I]one[/I] character whose character development is directly tied to their homosexuality, and even then it's so well handled they never outright state "Hey Ryder, I'M GAY! DID YOU KNOW THAT?". The information simply becomes obvious enough as you progress along their subplot, as it becomes relevant to the plot in question.
[editline]6th April 2017[/editline]
It's one passing mention upon asking someone about their backstory, specifically [I]the reason they left the galaxy.[/I] I'm starting to feel compelled to actually go and record it so people understand how much you need to go out of your way to obtain the information.[/QUOTE]
If it's such a non-issue then why would BioWare not stand their ground? Seems to me if they're apologizing for this of all things in their game, then perhaps there is merit to the argument that could have handled it better? And for that matter if it wasn't an issue why would people raise alarm in the first place?
And have you read the article? Because I pulled the diversity checklist analogy and "hamfisted" verbiage right out of it.
[QUOTE=Arc Nova;52063664]Has this ever been done correctly in a game before?? If not, how could you pull it off if you're not supposed to be able to tell they are trans and they're not supposed to tell you either??
I know the above question might come off as ignorant but I mean no harm by it, the question just came across my mind as I was reading this thread.[/QUOTE]
All I can think of is Oryx, the primary antagonist and raid boss of one of Destiny's DLCs who is revealed through collectibles to have been born female and turned male while rising to power, but I'm not sure if aliens with completely different biology and life cycles count
I highly advise against reading any of the replies on Twitter, it didn't even take me remotely long to get the bullshit of people talking about cis genders being oppressors.
Why do we even exist when we act like this, christ.
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