• Yes All Men: Assassin’s Creed Bro-op Controversy Escalates
    552 replies, posted
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098098]"Only when there are more female characters than male we will we stop fighting". that's the vibe I'm getting from that question.[/QUOTE] it was a 4 word question if you're getting all that from it then you're looking a little too deep into it [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098096]absolutely not what I said if there is an implicit rule that developers cannot have female characters, then how do you explain the presence (and increasing popularity) of female characters[/QUOTE] because if they're not 50/50 then there's a problem obviously we don't need EXACTLY the same amount of female characters as male ones but we're not even close to that
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45098137] because if they're not 50/50 then there's a problem obviously we don't need EXACTLY the same amount of female characters as male ones but we're not even close to that[/QUOTE] so exactly what I said basically you're forcing in your quotas and requirements on someone else's world, ideas and vision because that's what you want to see but I guess in these cases sexism is defined entirely by pure maths, and not by the sentiment behind the characters, and when we hit that magic 50/50 split, all misogyny will just disappear!!!!
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45098137]it was a 4 word question if you're getting all that from it then you're looking a little too deep into it because if they're not 50/50 then there's a problem obviously we don't need EXACTLY the same amount of female characters as male ones but we're not even close to that[/QUOTE] It's 13 words. Not very deep at all. [editline]13th June 2014[/editline] ok so you confirmed exactly what I said you feel there needs to be a specific ratio for it to work out. So explain to me exactly how I was "reading too deep" into that now?
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098149]so exactly what I said basically you're forcing in your quotas and requirements on someone else's world, ideas and vision because that's what you want to see but I guess in these cases sexism is defined entirely by pure maths, and not by the sentiment behind the characters, and when we hit that magic 50/50 split, all misogyny will just disappear!!!![/QUOTE] i'm not saying that, i'm saying that there's clearly a preference for male characters over female ones (which might as well be interpeted as an implicit rule)
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098049]how is this an implicit rule when far more games nowadays include female characters, to the point where it is now a frequent occurrence[/QUOTE] I don't know, ask SigmaLambda not me.
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098156]a specific ratio[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45098137] obviously we don't need EXACTLY the same amount of female characters as male ones[/QUOTE] ????
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45098203]????[/QUOTE] You're more worried about a numbers game rather than well written characters. which is a problem.
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098210]You're more worried about a numbers game rather than well written characters. which is a problem.[/QUOTE] False dichotomy. You can care about equal ratios in genders and want well-written characters.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45098195]i'm not saying that, i'm saying that there's clearly a preference for male characters over female ones (which might as well be interpeted as an implicit rule)[/QUOTE] yup, there sure is so how about instead of shoving absolutely meaningless quotas demanding that ubisoft shove in a throwaway female character, you look at the reasons [I]why[/I] there is a preference for male characters over female ones
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098210]You're more worried about a numbers game rather than well written characters. which is a problem.[/QUOTE] no i'm not? i didn't even mention writing in any of my posts?
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098214]False dichotomy. You can care about equal ratios in genders and want well-written characters.[/QUOTE] improper usage of false dichotomy bdd is not suggesting that you can only have one of the two, he's saying that he was more worried about the numbers, than having properly written characters in the first place
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098215]yup, there sure is so how about instead of shoving absolutely meaningless quotas demanding that ubisoft shove in a throwaway female character, you look at the reasons [I]why[/I] there is a preference for male characters over female ones[/QUOTE] That's incredibly unfair since no-one as far as I know suggested "quotas"; that's been purely your projection.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098215]yup, there sure is so how about instead of shoving absolutely meaningless quotas demanding that ubisoft shove in a throwaway female character, you look at the reasons [I]why[/I] there is a preference for male characters over female ones[/QUOTE] again i'm not demanding anything. and i do know the reason as to why we have more male characters than female ones. doesn't stop me from wanting more female characters
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098223]That's incredibly unfair since no-one as far as I know suggested "quotas"; that's been purely your projection.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45098137] because if they're not 50/50 then there's a problem [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=SigmaLambda;45081249]Why shouldn't it be a requirement? [/QUOTE] "projection"
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098222]improper usage of false dichotomy bdd is not suggesting that you can only have one of the two, he's saying that he was more worried about the numbers[/QUOTE] Improper usage? He was suggesting you either care about ratios or you should care (the more correct option in that poster's mind) about well written characters. I don't think he's more worried about numbers, maybe he's worried about both.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45098220]no i'm not? i didn't even mention writing in any of my posts?[/QUOTE] Exactly, implying you're more worried about how many female characters there are, compared to how well written they are.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098235]Improper usage? He was suggesting you either care about ratios or you should care (the more correct option in that poster's mind) about well written characters. I don't think he's more worried about numbers, maybe he's worried about both.[/QUOTE] that is absolutely not what bdd posted, read his post again. he said that zukriuchen cared more about the numbers than proper writing. that is absolutely not a false dichotomy, he is not asking for you to make a fallacious choice, he merely pointed out something he observed in his posts (that simple numbers are getting brought up more than actual writing quality)
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098234]"projection"[/QUOTE] No fair-minded person otherwise would say they're suggesting quotas. I understand it's far easier to make an argument against them when you turn it into this totalitarian from-top-down issued quota's but I certainly do not have that reading of it. [editline]13th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098247]that is absolutely not what bdd posted, read his post again. he said that zukriuchen cared more about the numbers than proper writing. that is absolutely not a false dichotomy, he is not asking for you to make a fallacious choice, he merely pointed out something he observed in his posts[/QUOTE] Yes he is asking him to make a fallacious choice by saying or at least implying he should care more about "proper writing" than "numbers". I'm saying you can care about both. [QUOTE=bdd458;45098259]i mean, if it's a multiplayer game the writing doesn't matter and you'd be completely right. but in the case of SP games, let's focus on getting good writing of characters, male and female.[/QUOTE] This is him explicitly saying to care more about "good writing" than "numbers".
i mean, if it's a multiplayer game the writing doesn't matter and you'd be completely right. but in the case of SP games, let's focus on getting good writing of characters, male and female.
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098239]Exactly, implying you're more worried about how many female characters there are, compared to how well written they are.[/QUOTE] that's what YOU interpreted. the only reason i'm not mentioning well written characters is because this is not a discussion about well written characters, it's a discussion about their appearance if you want to discuss which is more important (good writing imo) then i'll gladly do so, but don't act like i was talking about it before because i wasn't
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098251]No fair-minded person otherwise would say they're suggesting quotas. I understand it's far easier to make an argument against them when you turn it into this totalitarian from-top-down issued quota's but I certainly do not have that reading of it.[/QUOTE] saying that "if there is not a 50/50 split of gendered characters, then there is a problem" is literally applying a quota that demands a half and half representation. saying that "it should be a requirement that there is a female character" is also demanding a quota that there needs to be "at least one female character" there is no way of arguing this is anything other than a quota. [editline]14th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098251]No fair-minded person otherwise would say they're suggesting quotas. I understand it's far easier to make an argument against them when you turn it into this totalitarian from-top-down issued quota's but I certainly do not have that reading of it. [editline]13th June 2014[/editline] Yes he is asking him to make a fallacious choice by saying or at least implying he should care more about "proper writing" than "numbers". I'm saying you can care about both. This is him explicitly saying to care more about "good writing" than "numbers".[/QUOTE] tell me where he said that he had to make a choice bold it in his post where did he claim that they are two separate choices with no overlap. I'm posting it again for your sake so you can tell me [QUOTE=bdd458;45098210]You're more worried about a numbers game rather than well written characters. which is a problem.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098272]saying that "if there is not a 50/50 split of gendered characters, then there is a problem" is literally applying a quota that demands a half and half representation. saying that "it should be a requirement that there is a female character" is also demanding a quota that there needs to be "at least one female character" there is no way of arguing this is anything other than a quota.[/QUOTE] Okay well I understand that's your viewpoint but my viewpoint is that instead of a quota the underlying ideology of society's perception towards agency in both female and male needs to change in order to fix that representation, and I assumed that was what "SigmaLambda" was saying. I might be mistaken and he might be arguing for quotas. [editline]13th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098272] tell me where he said that he had to make a choice bold it in his post where did he claim that they are two separate choices with no overlap. I'm posting it again for your sake so you can tell me[/QUOTE] [quote]but in the case of SP games, let's focus on getting good writing of characters, male and female.[/quote] That is as explicit as you can get before just making the statement.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098288]Okay well I understand that's your viewpoint but my viewpoint is that instead of a quota the underlying ideology of society's perception towards agency in both female and male needs to change in order to fix that representation, and I assumed that was what "SigmaLambda" was saying. I might be mistaken and he might be arguing for quotas. [editline]13th June 2014[/editline] That is as explicit as you can get before just making the statement.[/QUOTE] but he hasn't said that you have two choices, you either play the numbers game or you have good writing. He said that he found it troubling that he was more worried about getting simple numbers equal, than actually improving writing of female characters. He then went on to express his opinion that he believes we should focus on getting good writing of characters (terribly writing of female characters is a far bigger problem than simple maths, so I absolutely agree) if he said that you can either play the numbers game, or you can have good writing, then it would be a false dichotomy as it stands though, it is not a false dichotomy.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098288]Okay well I understand that's your viewpoint but my viewpoint is that instead of a quota the underlying ideology of society's perception towards agency in both female and male needs to change in order to fix that representation, and I assumed that was what "SigmaLambda" was saying. I might be mistaken and he might be arguing for quotas. [editline]13th June 2014[/editline] That is as explicit as you can get before just making the statement.[/QUOTE] Where am I saying "No you can't have female characters and good writing". Where am I saying "You can only have badly written female characters." What I am saying is that writing should come before the superficial. A well written female character is no different than a well written male character. Just as there is no difference between a well written black character and a well written white character.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098312]but he hasn't said that you have two choices, you either play the numbers game or you have good writing. He said that he found it troubling that he was more worried about getting simple numbers equal, than actually improving writing of female characters. He then went on to express his opinion that he believes we should focus on better writing of characters if he said that you can either play the numbers game, or you can have good writing, then it would be a false dichotomy as it stands though, it is not a false dichotomy.[/QUOTE] Yes but in his opinion is implicit the idea that the two are incompatible and that improving the writing of female characters doesn't involve including more female characters in the game, which in my opinion it does. How can you have realistic female characters be meaningful in any way if they cannot live in a world where female is a meaningful distinction that includes up to 51% of the population in that world (this is barring any apocalyptic or homosexual harem worlds)?
[QUOTE=Impulse101;45097887]Internet feminism is a joke.[/QUOTE] Depends who's behind it. On the one end of the spectrum there are plenty of academics who know their shit, on the other end there's tumblr. People that post on Facepunch tend to fall somewhere in and around the middle of it.
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098323]Where am I saying "No you can't have female characters and good writing". Where am I saying "You can only have badly written female characters." What I am saying is that writing should come before the superficial. A well written female character is no different than a well written male character. Just as there is no difference between a well written black character and a well written white character.[/QUOTE] (This isn't about you, nerd. Step the heck off.) Ok that was more funny in my head.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098328]Yes but in his opinion is implicit the idea that the two are incompatible and that improving the writing of female characters doesn't involve including more female characters in the game, which in my opinion it does. How can you have realistic female characters be meaningful in any way if they cannot live in a world where female is a meaningful distinction that includes up to 51% of the population in that world (this is barring any apocalyptic or homosexual harem worlds)?[/QUOTE] because good writing isn't in any way related to numbers of demographics?????? that's like saying "how can this one well written character be meaningful when there's only one of him/her!!!!". A well written character is a well written character, irrespective of how well represented that character is in terms of demographics and no, improving the writing of female characters does not involve adding more female characters. He's pretty clearly talking about the writing of the characters of women in gaming, not the writing of games in general. [editline]14th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098335]This isn't about you, nerd. Step the heck off.[/QUOTE] what the fuck is this post are you 13 for god's sake
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098353]because good writing isn't in any way related to numbers of demographics?????? that's like saying "how can this one well written character be meaningful when there's only one of him/her!!!!" and no, improving the writing of female character does not involve adding more female characters. He's pretty clearly talking about the writing of the characters of women in gaming, not the writing of games in general.[/QUOTE] Don't condescend me with your exclamation points, bubbo. I have experience in internet semiotics and I'm not afraid to use it. I completely disagree with both statements. How can one well-written character be meaningful if there is only one of them? That is a very good question and frequently the subject of academic analysis. Often when we talk about one character we'll talk about how there's only the illusion of one character but that's a bunch of critical theory hocus-pocus. I do think improving the writing of female characters involves adding in more female characters. Females like males respond to their genders in ways that are important. Just the removal of a huge amount of one gender is incredibly meaningful, for example works of literature which revolve around the reduction of one gender to make a statement. To have very few characters of one gender in a world sparsely populated by them not affect the characters of that world in any meaningful way is in my opinion sloppy writing. [editline]13th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098353] what the fuck is this post are you 13 for god's sake[/QUOTE] Oh get over yourself, you're posting on a forum run by man-children.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098388][B]Don't condescend me with your exclamation points, bubbo. I have experience in internet semiotics and I'm not afraid to use it. I completely disagree with both statements. How can one well-written character be meaningful if there is only one of them? That is a very good question and frequently the subject of academic analysis. Often when we talk about one character we'll talk about how there's only the illusion of one character but that's a bunch of critical theory hocus-pocus.[/B] I do think improving the writing of female characters involves adding in more female characters. Females like males respond to their genders in ways that are important. Just the removal of a huge amount of one gender, for example works of literature which revolve around the reduction of one gender to make a statement. To have very few characters of one gender in a world sparsely populated by them not affect the characters of that world in any meaningful way is in my opinion sloppy writing.[/QUOTE] I bolded the part of your post where you managed to say a load of words, but make [I]literally no point with them[/I] this entire post is a mess, but I'm just going to ask you a question are you willing to say to me that the character of Lady Macbeth in Macbeth is poorly written because women are badly represented in the play/book/whatever.
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