Yes All Men: Assassin’s Creed Bro-op Controversy Escalates
552 replies, posted
i feel like you found a philosophy book and are just spouting maxims and things from it.
[editline]13th June 2014[/editline]
not you cloak, neil there, like I noticed it in the ISIS thread as well.
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098411]i feel like you found a philosophy book and are just spouting maxims and things from it.
[editline]13th June 2014[/editline]
no you cloak, like I noticed it in the ISIS thread as well.[/QUOTE]
i actually think I might be arguing with a bot, I might run these posts through google to see if they're turning up elsewhere
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098405]I bolded the part of your post where you managed to say a load of words, but make [I]literally no point with them[/I]
this entire post is a mess, but I'm just going to ask you a question
are you willing to say to me that the character of Lady Macbeth in Macbeth is poorly written because women are badly represented in the play/book/whatever.[/QUOTE]
I make the effort to understand your posts, the least you can do is play along with me when I poke fun at post-modern platitudes.
The character of Lady Macbeth is a perfect example of what I was talking about because Lady Macbeth is multiple female roles in where Lady Macbeth is constantly fighting with her double, feminists in academia love her for this reason.
or a Thisispain alt.
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098411]i feel like you found a philosophy book and are just spouting maxims and things from it.
[/QUOTE]
If you know what a maxim was you wouldn't say this.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098466]I make the effort to understand your posts, the least you can do is play along with me when I poke fun at post-modern platitudes.
The character of Lady Macbeth is a perfect example of what I was talking about because Lady Macbeth is multiple female roles in where Lady Macbeth is constantly fighting with her double, feminists in academia love her for this reason.[/QUOTE]
so what you're telling me here is, Lady Macbeth is an exceptionally well written character, and for this reason, it doesn't [I]matter[/I] that women are mathematically outnumbered, what is important that lady macbeth is incredibly well written
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098468]or a Thisispain alt.[/QUOTE]
People have said this to be like twice and it took me a while to realize they're talking about the person I live with.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098470]If you know what a maxim was you wouldn't say this.[/QUOTE]
"a short, pithy statement expressing a general truth or rule of conduct."
[quote]Often when we talk about one character we'll talk about how there's only the illusion of one character but that's a bunch of critical theory hocus-pocus.[/quote]
?????
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098476]so what you're telling me here is, Lady Macbeth is an exceptionally well written character, and for this reason, it doesn't [I]matter[/I] that women are mathematically outnumbered, what is important that lady macbeth is incredibly well written[/QUOTE]
No, Lady Macbeth functions in the story as multiple women which is what makes her interesting as a character.
It is easy but ultimately meaningless for me to say: "maybe Shakespeare should have put more women in his stories" because that's a by-gone era.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098483]People have said this to be like twice and it took me a while to realize they're talking about the person I live with.[/QUOTE]
oh it all makes sense because the person you live with is yourself and you have multiple roles and you are constantly fighting with yourself.
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098491]"a short, pithy statement expressing a general truth or rule of conduct."
?????[/QUOTE]
That's not a maxim, an example of a maxim would be some cliche that I repeat about how a penny saved is a penny well-earned or how Islam is a religion of peace.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098496]No, Lady Macbeth functions in the story as multiple women which is what makes her interesting as a character.
It is easy but ultimately meaningless for me to say: "maybe Shakespeare should have put more women in his stories" because that's a by-gone era.[/QUOTE]
You are just repeating basically what I said.
The important factor is the fact that Shakespeare has written MACBETH WELL, NOT that there was the correct quota of female characters in the play, but rather that he wrote lady macbeth as an exceptional character.
you telling me that she has a variety of roles that can be separated into multiple women is essentially meaningless in the context of this discussion
the character of lady macbeth would not have been improved by adding a female character to fulfill a role she had, and the play of macbeth would not have been improved by filling these roles with more female characters
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098502]oh it all makes sense because the person you live with is yourself and you have multiple roles and you are constantly fighting with yourself.[/QUOTE]
I am his femininity expressed on the internet. As soon as he turns off his computer I cease to exist, dormant.
[highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Alt of permabanned user thisispain" - Craptasket))[/highlight]
So an alt of a permabanned user?
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098532]You are just repeating basically what I said.
The important factor is the fact that Shakespeare has written MACBETH WELL, NOT that there was the correct quota of female characters in the play, but rather that he wrote lady macbeth as an exceptional character.
you telling me that she has a variety of roles that can be separated into multiple women is essentially meaningless in the context of this discussion[/QUOTE]
What I am telling you is that she has a variety of roles so she essentially already exists in a world where femininity is meaningful and carries importance (how sexist Shakespeare is I'll leave up to you).
I don't see the same thing in the admittedly few examples of video-games that I've seen. Women function only as secondary to men, their existence only goes so far as the old maxim about women says, women are men's guilt personified.
That's why I also get annoyed when you have these female characters copy-and-pasted into games, because the only reason they are there is because of men's guilt.
so basically you want better writing?
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098550]So an alt of a permabanned user?[/QUOTE]
I can't even tell if you're, like, seriously trying to trap me into saying I'm him or something. That's too funny.
I didn't even know he was permabanned because I don't care, I was just bored and logged into this account I haven't done anything with in almost a decade.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098572]What I am telling you is that she has a variety of roles so she essentially already exists in a world where femininity is meaningful and carries importance (how sexist Shakespeare is I'll leave up to you).
I don't see the same thing in the admittedly few examples of video-games that I've seen. Women function only as secondary to men, their existence only goes so far as the old maxim about women says, women are men's guilt personified.
That's why I also get annoyed when you have these female characters copy-and-pasted into games, because the only reason they are there is because of men's guilt.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. So your problem with female characters in video games is not that they are mathematically outnumbered, but because they are written poorly. Femininity is meaningful and carries importance because shakespeare wrote it into her character extremely well, not because he threw in a shit ton of female characters to try and convey it
give me 1 lady macbeth over any number of generic female characters in a videogame any day
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098590]Exactly. So your problem with female characters in video games is not that they are mathematically outnumbered, but because they are written poorly. Femininity is meaningful and carries importance because shakespeare wrote it into her character extremely well, not because he threw in a shit ton of female characters to try and convey it
give me 1 lady macbeth over any number of generic female characters in a videogame any day[/QUOTE]
Please believe me when I say that I do legitimately want more female characters and I think it's important to the meaningfulness of a character.
Lady Macbeth is meaningful in her world because femininity is defined, but Jane BigmuscleBabe isn't meaningful in hers because no other woman as a construct of gender exists in her world. Jane BigmuscleBabe only exists in relation of difference to men; she's like a man only she's got breasts and the right tools for babies.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098612]Please believe me when I say that I do legitimately want more female characters and I think it's important to the meaningfulness of a character.
Lady Macbeth is meaningful in her world because femininity is defined, but Jane BigmuscleBabe isn't meaningful in hers because no other woman as a construct of gender exists in her world. Jane BigmuscleBabe only exists in relation of difference to men; she's like a man only she's got breasts and the right tools for babies.[/QUOTE]
I don't deny that you want that.
But from all of your posts, you're totally in agreement with bdd. Your major gripes are with poor writing of characters, not with the maths. The maths exacerbates the problem no doubt, but terrible writing is what makes it a problem in the first place.
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098323]A well written female character is no different than a well written male character. Just as there is no difference between a well written black character and a well written white character.[/QUOTE]
they ARE different though. or rather, the reception they get is different.
peter parker, for example, is a good character, not only because he goes through real struggles and has a personality, but also because those struggles and his personality are relatable.
you might say that this is all related to writing, but remember that peter parker is also a really average looking character. not incredibly handsome, white, with brown hair (can't remember if he has brown or blue eyes) and an average build (before getting his super powers). considering whites were the majority of the population in the 60s in the US, this made him even more relatable.
is that all you need to make a good character? of course not, but in videogames, immersion plays a huge role in gameplay, considering you're not simply watching the character do all those things, you're meant to BE the character. this is even more important when you take into account that the AC series has a relatively down-to-earth approach to its story (yes, magical orb thingies and all that, but its storytelling still tries not to come off as cheesy in this crazy universe they've built up, especially in the historical segments), meaning that immersion is even more important
so, basically, even though i'm not denying that you can still have hundreds of well-written characters of the same gender, i'm sure you can understand why there's women out there who want more relatable characters?
I'm not black, an adult, or a criminal, yet I was able feel like I was Lee pretty damn well in The Walking Dead.
Why? The writing was so fucking good that it sucks you in.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;45098634]I don't deny that you want that.
But from all of your posts, you're totally in agreement with bdd. Your major gripes are with poor writing of characters, not with the maths. The maths exacerbates the problem no doubt, but terrible writing is what makes it a problem in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Well yes of course we agree, that's how I know it's worth trying to articulate things in the first place.
If we didn't agree then we'd probably just say "Oh you're stupid you don't know what you are talking about" and have this thread turn into the ten page toilet paper sheet it already was.
[QUOTE=niel12_5D;45098612]Jane BigmuscleBabe only exists in relation of difference to men; she's like a man only she's got breasts and the right tools for babies.[/QUOTE]
Main problem is, is that at this point in development of the game, this is pretty much your only viable option regarding getting the female character you want.
I hate to be the cynical kind of sales figures guy here but target audience is another major factor, it's why Remember Me didn't exactly do that well. Taking a risk and telling a story is nice and all, but when you're funding that risk it doesn't really feel all that comfortable.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have more well written female characters, but I'm just trying to bring some light onto this. It's not a problem we can really fix by just arguing on a forum, believe it or not the best way to have well written females in games nowadays is to either have them as second fiddle or not have the writing be the main selling point I.E. Laura Croft.
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098668]I'm not black, an adult, or a criminal, yet I was able feel like I was Lee pretty damn well in The Walking Dead.
Why? The writing was so fucking good that it sucks you in.[/QUOTE]
But let's define good writing first, saying the writing is good in the first place is only meaningful if we both agree on what is good writing.
For example I don't think that Heart of Darkness was well written ("thisisspain" or whatever would agree with me probably), but my AP English teacher definitely disagreed.
[editline]13th June 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr.95;45098693]Main problem is, is that at this point in development of the game, this is pretty much your only viable option regarding getting the female character you want.
[/QUOTE]
That's why I don't agree with these quote-unquote tumblr feminists who want to just have female characters randomly placed into games.
I think it's better if I can see the stupid game for the infantile male fantasy it is and not take it seriously then have it try to deal with gender topics in such a ham-fisted way that makes me want to kill myself.
-Snip he's been banned now no point-
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098668]I'm not black, an adult, or a criminal, yet I was able feel like I was Lee pretty damn well in The Walking Dead.
Why? The writing was so fucking good that it sucks you in.[/QUOTE]
yes, but again, immersion is not all about writing. do you think people nowadays that watch jurassic park feel the same way people back in the 90s felt? probably not, because back then, the cgi was considered almost flawless, while nowadays (while still impressive considering when it was made) it's pretty average. same thing with the matrix, or king kong, or what have you, because visuals play a huge part in immersion.
but of course, it's not only the quality of the visuals, but also their style. the dark knight's world is a much more believable one when compared to iron man, because not only is the writing in the latter one cheesier, but it also has less believable (on purpose, though) visuals, while nolan's batman aimed for a realistic world and realistic characters. let's say that, hypothetically, iron man's tony stark was much better written. is he any more relatable? no, he's still an alcoholic genius playboy. but no matter how badly written nolan's bruce may be (in this hypothetical world of course), he'll always be more relatable, as long as he stays a believable character in the movie's established universe, because that is what they were aiming for with the rest of the universe. that includes making him go through real struggles and acting like you probably would if you were bruce wayne.
what i'm trying to say is this: well written characters are essential, but they're nothing without well designed visuals. you may want to rely on only one of these, but try to understand why other people don't. maybe you didn't feel like lee was any less relatable because of his characteristics, but maybe other people did. that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't enjoy the game as much, but either way, don't blame them for wanting to have someone they CAN relate to
[QUOTE=bdd458;45098749]-Snip he's been banned now no point-[/QUOTE]
Craptasket is going right on my wall of heroes. (if I ever had one)
And he did it before he started going "huh ur back peddaling" and throwing "where r statistics bruh" and "ad hominem, ad hominem!"
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45099103]yes, but again, immersion is not all about writing. do you think people nowadays that watch jurassic park feel the same way people back in the 90s felt? probably not, because back then, the cgi was considered almost flawless, while nowadays (while still impressive considering when it was made) it's pretty average. same thing with the matrix, or king kong, or what have you, because visuals play a huge part in immersion.
but of course, it's not only the quality of the visuals, but also their style. the dark knight's world is a much more believable one when compared to iron man, because not only is the writing in the latter one cheesier, but it also has less believable (on purpose, though) visuals, while nolan's batman aimed for a realistic world and realistic characters. let's say that, hypothetically, iron man's tony stark was much better written. is he any more relatable? no, he's still an alcoholic genius playboy. but no matter how badly written nolan's bruce may be (in this hypothetical world of course), he'll always be more relatable, as long as he stays a believable character in the movie's established universe, because that is what they were aiming for with the rest of the universe. that includes making him go through real struggles and acting like you probably would if you were bruce wayne.
what i'm trying to say is this: well written characters are essential, but they're nothing without well designed visuals. you may want to rely on only one of these, but try to understand why other people don't. maybe you didn't feel like lee was any less relatable because of his characteristics, but maybe other people did. that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't enjoy the game as much, but either way, don't blame them for wanting to have someone they CAN relate to[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but if someone can only relate to something based on visuals, then I feel they're completely devoid of being able to have empathy (As defined by Merriam Webster: [I]the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this[/I]).
"Whataya gonna do? Assassinate the dishes?"
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.