• Yes All Men: Assassin’s Creed Bro-op Controversy Escalates
    552 replies, posted
[QUOTE=_Axel;45103965]Fair point. I could argue that there's no way of changing their past investments now they spent their resources on it, but criticism could actually lead to better resource management from them in the future.[/QUOTE] Yeah exactly, the main point of criticism is to improve something. [quote]One thing I don't understand, though, is why Ubi is getting so much flak about it even though they're far from being the only offender. I mean, everyone acts like the presence of a female character is a due, even though it's far from being the norm. If it's really an issue, why gang up on that particular game and not take the debate to a larger scale?[/quote] There are any number of reasons why. Ubisoft is a big company and assasins's creed is a big IP. Some storys just pick up better than others. You might not be noticing other stories on this type of thing.
[QUOTE=MegaJohnny;45102797]Sexy seductress/femme fatale is a perfectly valid character archetype. The problem is games where most of the women characters have amazing bodies and revealing outfits for no particular reason. Bonus points when the character is also a fighter and has randomly exposed abdomen (aka vital organs).[/QUOTE] Then there's people complaining about bayonetta even when story wise she has every reason to be that.
[QUOTE=bdd458;45102016]Then what's the point of books? There's no visuals there, yet people click easily with book characters (Paul Baumer, Gus and Hazel, etc...). So no, they don't go hand in hand. [editline]14th June 2014[/editline] You don't need both to create a blievable universe, you need good writing.[/QUOTE] or maybe different mediums work in different ways???
[QUOTE=halflife_123;45104011]I think Ubi are getting flak in this case because they presented a co-op game with 4 characters that are pretty much identical. Like one of those characters could have been female, or a different ethnicity or something. The debate is larger than this game but Ubi are just at the forefront of the issue right now I guess.[/QUOTE] We don't know anything about these characters, we haven't heard them talk and all we've seen si that they used different weapons and their outfits seem to have various cultural influences. For all we know it can be a Spaniard, an Italian, a German and an Irish guy. For all we know their outfit can be customized, at least as far as the color scheme goes.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;45105187]We don't know anything about these characters, we haven't heard them talk and all we've seen si that they used different weapons and their outfits seem to have various cultural influences. For all we know it can be a Spaniard, an Italian, a German and an Irish guy. For all we know their outfit can be customized, at least as far as the color scheme goes.[/QUOTE] In co-op every player is Arno. There is only 1 protagonist and every player sees themselves as it. When you're playing co-op the other players have no effect on the story.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45105183]or maybe different mediums work in different ways???[/QUOTE] A well written story is a well written story no matter the fucking medium. Movies, TV, Videogames, Books. And you know what, here's some examples of movies and games with 'outdated' visuals that still hold up today because of their story (and in the case of Videogames their gameplay helps as well in some cases). [I]Movies[/I] 2001: A Space Odyssey Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly Doctor Strangelove or: How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Bomb All Quiet on the Western Front (1930 edition, which as a bonus was originally a fantastic novel) [I]Video Games[/I] Final Fantasy 7 The Secret of Monkey Island Grim Fandango Max Payne Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas Hitman: Blood Money Half Life Fallout 2 Deus Ex
[QUOTE=bdd458;45102016]Then what's the point of books? There's no visuals there, yet people click easily with book characters (Paul Baumer, Gus and Hazel, etc...). So no, they don't go hand in hand. [editline]14th June 2014[/editline] You don't need both to create a blievable universe, you need good writing.[/QUOTE] also, remember that, even though books don't have actual visuals, they still have different ways to make you picture the characters and the setting. the dark atmosphere that the got show has suits rr martin's writing style, while flashier visuals like in the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy (even though that was a terrible movie) work well for an adaptation of a douglas adams book. books may not actually show you what everything is supposed to look like, but that's because all they can do is TELL you all that information. you may say that this is also related to the writing, and that's true- when it comes to books. however, you can't exactly handle the material the same way when you transfer it to the big screen. a narrator mentioning how a character feels in a book may not seem out of place, but saying things like "and because of that, john felt sad" in a movie often comes off as comical. how do you solve that? well, that's where visuals come in. you can't say that a character looks imposing outright, so instead you use a low angle shot to invoke that feeling on the audience. you can't explicitly state that there was a lot of tension between two characters when they looked at each other in the eye, but you can use close ups and some tense music (maybe even slo mo) to show that to the audience, or even use kill bill-style zoom-ins if a more comical style is what you're going for. visuals can also make it easier to connect with a character. you get a more real sense of what is at stake when you see the jaegers in pacific rim being damaged and running out of energy than when you see the girl from sucker punch get kicked by a 10 foot samurai and find out she's left unharmed. the first example gives you a real sense of danger while the second one gives you a flashy fight scene. this is also reflected in character design, because if it's already easier to relate to a character that reacts like you would, then it's not surprising that it's also easy to connect with them when they LOOK like you. when most of the lead characters for triple a titles out there are white guys with brown hair and a stubble, it's not hard to see why people who don't fit that criteria would want someone who looks at least a little bit different. [editline]14th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=bdd458;45105890]And you know what, here's some examples of movies and games with 'outdated' visuals that still hold up today because of their story (and in the case of Videogames their gameplay helps as well in some cases).[/QUOTE] now i really am wondering if you're reading what i'm posting because i've already covered this. i'm not complaining about outdated visuals, i only mentioned that once to lead into my argument of why the style of those visuals (and not just their quality) is also very, very important.
You guys are taking RPS way too seriously. For the record these are the people who invited someone from Blizzard over to talk about Heroes of the Storm, which they actually did for a little bit, then veered off into a tl;dr rant about feminism and how all the female character designs were sexist. Then after Blizzard PR told their guy to get out RPS wrote [i]another[/i] tl;dr rant about feminism trying to spin Blizzard as evil sexists for not going along with their bullshit. It's nothing but clickbait garbage.
[QUOTE=JustGman;45106358]You guys are taking RPS way too seriously. For the record these are the people who invited someone from Blizzard over to talk about Heroes of the Storm, which they actually did for a little bit, then veered off into a tl;dr rant about feminism and how all the female character designs were sexist. Then after Blizzard PR told their guy to get out RPS wrote [I]another[/I] tl;dr rant about feminism trying to spin Blizzard as evil sexists for not going along with their bullshit. It's nothing but clickbait garbage.[/QUOTE] Was that interview made by John Walker? If yes, then, well... Edit: it was Nathan Grayson. Oh no, the virus has spread...
What is this. People aren't entitled at all for what they want to fucking play as. Stop making issues where there aren't any. If you honestly feel like the character(s) you play as has an effect on the gameplay and refuse to pay for it (even though a vast majority of people wait for sales anyway) then it probably isn't a game for you regardless. [editline]15th June 2014[/editline] No really. You all get in a tiff and then begin to spout "Well, I guess I won't be buying the game or further supporting the devs anymore, that'll show them!" Fair enough, but you people saying this is hardly going to mean anything to them because people who play the game for the game and not to really get connected with the main character are still going to buy the game. You're, to them, a handful of change at most. I personally don't see this as an issue, as others dont, but if you want to take a stab at it for whatever reason then go ahead.
I honestly think that if it were 4 female playable characters and no males, everybody would have a fucking hissy fit. I for one, think there is a[B] small[/B] issue within gaming that does under-represent women. Yes, there are some examples of great strong female characters... but that's in a vast minority. You can disagree all you want, but it's not as trivial as it seems. Both genders aren't equally represented within video games, and that's a fact.
[QUOTE=CrucialSeBBi;45083274]Most games should have a character creator IMO[/QUOTE] Why? A lot of games, just like movies or books, are to tell the story about a specific person. While he may not say anything, and you only see his face on the cover of games, we all know what Gordon Freeman looks like. He's meant to look that. Hell, he's iconic to the series; if you see Gordon Freeman, you immediately think of Half-Life. Character creators work in some games, but sure as hell not in 'most' games. Most of the games you can create a character in severely lack in the dialogue department (at least for your character, because usually what you say gets boiled down to a line of text on the screen instead of actual words; there are, of course, exceptions to this, but I'd argue that they're in the minority).
This is the longest thread in this subforum I've ever seen
I'd like a complete female cast in one of the more popular AAA series just to see people's reactions
[QUOTE=DeEz;45109757]I'd like a complete female cast in one of the more popular AAA series just to see people's reactions[/QUOTE] I think you'd get even more outrage by hardcore SJWs for their personalities/looks/clothes... Making a female character that would not cause an outrage is already walking on eggshells, try doing that to four of them.
[QUOTE=DeEz;45109757]I'd like a complete female cast in one of the more popular AAA series just to see people's reactions[/QUOTE] if nintendo ever actually goes through with female link, i imagine the outrage will be palpable. [editline]15th June 2014[/editline] and it would be delicious.
[QUOTE=postmanX3;45110125]if nintendo ever actually goes through with female link, i imagine the outrage will be palpable. [editline]15th June 2014[/editline] and it would be delicious.[/QUOTE] And male Zelda. Many already thinks Link is Zelda so nothing much changes.
[QUOTE=RustledJimmys;45109275]What is this. People aren't entitled at all for what they want to fucking play as. Stop making issues where there aren't any. If you honestly feel like the character(s) you play as has an effect on the gameplay and refuse to pay for it (even though a vast majority of people wait for sales anyway) then it probably isn't a game for you regardless.[/QUOTE] nobody's saying they're entitled to anything. nobody's saying they won't buy the game because of that. all people are saying is "why can't we have female characters", and the response they got for saying that is "because it'd be too hard to add them", which is a piss poor excuse
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45112579]nobody's saying they're entitled to anything. nobody's saying they won't buy the game because of that. all people are saying is "why can't we have female characters", and the response they got for saying that is "because it'd be too hard to add them", which is a piss poor excuse[/QUOTE] We covered this on the first page lol. This thread is going on so long because people aren't getting that the point isn't that the game doesn't have female protagonists or coop characters or whatever, it's Ubisofts shitty excuse that was already shot down by an AC3 dev.
[url]http://www.reddit.com/r/assassinscreed/comments/27ut97/distinct_lack_of_female_characters_due_to/ci5z8i7[/url] This needs to be reposted I feel. TLDR: Managers care about their team more than pleasing angsty equalists.
[QUOTE=sam6420;45113457]I couldn't care less if the only options in a game were female. If lack of ovaries in a videogame stops you from enjoying it then you aren't a gamer, you're an ass. Also, seriously, sexism? For whatever reason there were only male characters and suddenly this is sexism? Like the lack of females in AC is gonna set women back 1000 years. Come on./[/QUOTE] It doesn't stop people from playing the game, if it did then women would be playing barely any games.
[QUOTE=sam6420;45113457]I couldn't care less if the only options in a game were female. If lack of ovaries in a videogame stops you from enjoying it then you aren't a gamer, you're an ass. Also, seriously, sexism? For whatever reason there were only male characters and suddenly this is sexism? Like the lack of females in AC is gonna set women back 1000 years. Come on.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45112579]nobody's saying they're entitled to anything. nobody's saying they won't buy the game because of that. all people are saying is "why can't we have female characters", and the response they got for saying that is "because it'd be too hard to add them", which is a piss poor excuse[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Stents*;45105540]In co-op every player is Arno. There is only 1 protagonist and every player sees themselves as it. When you're playing co-op the other players have no effect on the story.[/QUOTE] which makes it funny why this whole thing started anyways no one complained when one of the links in four swords wasn't female
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;45112579]nobody's saying they're entitled to anything. nobody's saying they won't buy the game because of that. all people are saying is "why can't we have female characters", and the response they got for saying that is "because it'd be too hard to add them", which is a piss poor excuse[/QUOTE] So you have someone who is probably far removed from actual dev work(In a company that big) says its too hard? They later come out with there official stance of "It didn't fit our vision".
[QUOTE=Raidyr;45113024]We covered this on the first page lol. This thread is going on so long because people aren't getting that the point isn't that the game doesn't have female protagonists or coop characters or whatever,[b] it's Ubisofts shitty excuse that was already shot down by an AC3 dev.[/b][/QUOTE] [url]http://www.reddit.com/r/assassinscreed/comments/27ut97/distinct_lack_of_female_characters_due_to/ci5z8i7[/url] And then another dev chimes in, proving that wrong. Oops!
here's the big issue [I]literally everyone[/I] is failing to see if there was [I]no sexism in games[/I] or if a character being female [I]didn't matter,[/I] then the amount of male characters versus the amount of female characters would be negligible. if it didn't matter, nobody would care if call of duty 1234932849732 starred a black lady. nobody would care if the majority of characters in a western FPS game were women. but that's not the case at all. there is a ton of gender-related issue with games. go into a gamestop and look at a shelf. here's an image from google i found. [t]http://gengame.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/gamestop-shelf.jpg[/t] out of [I]the covers that have entire humans or part of humans on them,[/I] how many feature a white dude? i tried to count them all, but the only ones that [I]didn't[/I] have a white dude on them were ones with non-human aliens, bayonetta, and final fantasy 13. the rest, a good 30 or 40 characters have white dudes. some of them, like ruse and army of two, feature multiple white dudes. i don't honestly believe that [I]anyone[/I] can say that this is a property character diversity that would come from a [I]sexism-free[/I] game industry. and back to assassin's creed? if the developers weren't morons about their own IP and if the suits didn't control everything, they would have already had female characters in assassins creed and wouldn't even have to do all of this damage control. [editline]15th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Jackald;45103360]Strong woman = man with boobs, male dominatrix fantasy Weak woman = oppressive damsel for males to enact power fantay Strong man = for men to play a power fantasy Weak man = acceptable. Tumblr's version of feminism, ladies and gentlemen.[/QUOTE] thanks for bringing that up in a thread where nobody has said anything even remotely related to that i'll never understand this forum's rabid anti-tumblr obsession. like, nobody on the opposite side of your argument is saying it, [I]you're[/I] the one exposing yourself to this stuff you hate. [editline]15th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Gray Altoid;45116313][url]http://www.reddit.com/r/assassinscreed/comments/27ut97/distinct_lack_of_female_characters_due_to/ci5z8i7[/url] And then another dev chimes in, proving that wrong. Oops![/QUOTE] at this point in development it's impossible to add in female characters. who woulda thunk. if it was a priority in the first place they wouldn't need to put any "extra effort or funding" into it because it would've already been part of the main development. "make a girl with boobs" costs just as much as "make another white guy" when you're at the earliest stages of development. [editline]15th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Ganerumo;45093789]Political correctness is expecting a group of ruthless murderers to somehow include a woman in their ranks when their job is to infiltrate highly dangerous environments while looking as inhumanely intimidating as possible in the middle of the 18th century. There's a reason the only female assassin in Black Flag was posing as a dude and there was a reason Aveline in Liberation was posing as either a harmless slave or a noble woman. Story wise it doesn't fit to have female assassins walking around in that time period when it's made very clear that they're extremely rare.[/QUOTE] look at the game series you're talking about, most notably liberation and brotherhood. you can recruit dozens of random assassins to help you, at least half of those are women. the assassins are, well, assassins. in canon, they're hidden in history so that's why nobody in the real world has heard of them. you mean to tell me that a society like the assassins would care about being intimidating when they're supposed to fucking assassinate people and stay hidden? what??
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;45117684] i tried to count them all, but the only ones that [I]didn't[/I] have a white dude on them were ones with non-human aliens, bayonetta, and final fantasy 13. the rest, a good 30 or 40 characters have white dudes. some of them, like ruse and army of two, feature multiple white dudes. [/QUOTE] Most people who enjoy video games are male, you can read a lot of statistics about that. It makes sense to to have male protagonists because it's easier for male game audiences to identify themselves with a male protagonist. I think that is a big reason why there are so many male protagonists in my opinion. I usually pick male characters in video games because I can just identify myself more with them. Although this isn't an attempt to try to defend that there are not many female protagonists. I feel like sexism applies to both female and male characters in game. I would really love to see more indepth female characters. On the topic though I think a lot of people miss that the actual issue about this article is that it's actually about the incompetence and sheer lazyness of Ubisoft to actually make female characters by using lame excuses. It's not really about sexism really.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;45117684]if there was [I]no sexism in games[/I] or if a character being female [I]didn't matter,[/I] then the amount of male characters versus the amount of female characters would be [b]negligible.[/b][/QUOTE] You mean almost equal, I suppose.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;45117684]stuff[/QUOTE] There's one thing YOU fail to understand. It's target audience. Having a target audience does not mean you're discriminating against a group. They have statistics that point out who's buying their game. They are NOT going to make a market experience and change their successful formula on a AAA title. Besides, having females doesn't automatically makes the game good and not having females doesn't automatically push away female gamers.
[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;45116313][url]http://www.reddit.com/r/assassinscreed/comments/27ut97/distinct_lack_of_female_characters_due_to/ci5z8i7[/url] And then another dev chimes in, proving that wrong. Oops![/QUOTE] That doesn't prove him wrong, that's just another developers viewpoint. This is the part where I'd argue that you should take both opinions into consideration but that reddit post is unproofed and the one I referenced has a confirmed Twitter so yeah, oops.
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