• Yes All Men: Assassin’s Creed Bro-op Controversy Escalates
    552 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45082718]There was a March started by Women but only really gained power when EVERYONE joined in, it was not some female strong march.[/QUOTE] are you... are you serious? are you retarded? [IMG]http://ux1.eiu.edu/~cfnek/syllabi/5250/march-of-the-women-on-versailles-paris-1789-by-french-school.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;45082780]Well realistically, this is just speaking towards the co-op aspect of the game. From the looks of things, only Arno is the "real" assassin, with the other 3 players just being faceless nobodies helping you out. No real reason why they couldn't have male and female models for the multiplayer part, especially given the series has had women in multiplayer since Brotherhood. That's the complaint, and it was multiplied tenfold when Ubisoft gave a bullshit excuse. EDIT: Also, Assassin's Creed Liberation starred an African woman of French heritage, running around in full Assassin's garb (and disguises)...in the American South around the time of the Revolutionary War. And you don't think THAT would have been an odd sight, even in New Orleans?[/QUOTE] Well actually African American soldiers were actually a big part of the Revolutionary War in America but I can see where you are coming from with that. Didnt realize the other 3 players were just like random no ones, but still let me ask you this. Why do devs need to show equal representation in a video game? Why do they have to pander? Why cant games be what the devs want and why do they have to be treated like some fucking political agenda out to get groups of people? Shouldnt games be 100% freedom of creativity/expression/design?
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;45082769]I think he was referring to this lovely video from IGN. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCPEXg36d0E[/media] That video shouldn't have been made, but yeah, it's only one website saying it.[/QUOTE] Lol what the fuck, those two on the left (or their right I guess) are fucking idiots! "Women die in COD, omg so bad!" "But we play tons of games where women die... We just played Tomb Raider that was way worse..." "DOESN'T COUNT CALL OF DUTY IS SO REALISTIC!" Also props to the only girl there for saying females builds should have been in the first modern warfare and that COD was actually late to the game.
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;45082124]I'm sorry, but basing game design for a triple A world class game off of a niche of people who call for equality is an absolutely STUPID idea. Think about how many people buy AC games, now think about how many of those people fit into the small niche of feminists, or even those calling for equality. It's a laughable comparison. With the kind of profit ubisoft makes, i guarantee they don't give a shit about that small niche. Stop using gaming as a means to push ideals onto people, it's a business created to make money and provide entertainment. And if you can't understand that then you're too sensitive.[/QUOTE] Why should any game or form of media be exempt from scrutiny about its attitudes towards gender, race and sex It is not about a niche of people it is about a standard of respect and inclusiveness that everyone has a right to expect from each other in modern society but is still sorely underrepresented in one of our most popular forms of media
Just gonna leave this here from the other AssCreed Unity thread: [QUOTE=Lordgeorge16;45073340]I honestly find it hilarious how everyone is treating this news as though Ubisoft said there won't be a single woman in Unity. Just because you can't play as a chick doesn't mean the entire game is going to be one huge sausage fest. As bad as it sounds, sex appeal is practically a standard in any game rated above E10+ these days. For example: *dat lady assassin that max loves so much* If there's one thing Ubisoft almost always does right, it's historical accuracy. I'd bet my top dollar that we'll see Charlotte Corday as a prominent character in the game and she'll probably even be an ally to Arnaud. Don't you worry. Yes, having the option to play as a woman would be nice, but it couldn't work in past Assassin's Creed games due to the history that the series revolves around. It's established that Altair, Ezio, Aveline, Edward, Adewale, Haytham, and Connor were important, even revolutionary and legendary assassins of their times. Having the option to play as the opposite gender in those games would only work if you followed an entirely different storyline. Now that the story appears to be shifting away from Desmond (thank god) and his ancestry, it could open up a new world of possibilities in which creating your own character may fit in if they can get a good story to work alongside it.[/QUOTE]
I think there's a reason why the word bitch is in the word bitching. WAAAAAA A SERIES THAT HAS HAD NOTHING BUT MALE PLAYABLE CHARACTERS (besides multi) SHOULD HAVE MALE CHARACTER BECAUSE.... MEEEEEEE seriously, why the fuck is this such a big deal with this game in particular? why does [b]this[/b] game need female characters so badly? why not another game?
[QUOTE=CheeseMan;45082866]are you... are you serious? are you retarded?[/QUOTE] No I think you are retarded for posting a picture, this is just an illustration that really holds no merit other than being an image of some women in the march. If you actually read about it you would realize it was started by women, but quickly turned into a mob of EVERYONE.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45082867]Well actually African American soldiers were actually a big part of the Revolutionary War in America but I can see where you are coming from with that. Didnt realize the other 3 players were just like random no ones, but still let me ask you this. Why do devs need to show equal representation in a video game? Why do they have to pander? Why cant games be what the devs want and why do they have to be treated like some fucking political agenda out to get groups of people? Shouldnt games be 100% freedom of creativity/expression/design?[/QUOTE] Actually, I agree with you on that point, and if Ubisoft had said that a playable female assassin didn't fit their vision of the game or the story they were trying to tell, that at least would be defensible. However, that's not the answer they gave. The answer they gave was that it would take too many resources and, in their own words, would require 8,000 unique animations. That was a bullshit answer, and even fellow professional animators (including Assassin's Creed III's former lead animator) called them out on it. Their crappy answer is the "controversy" here, far less so than not having a female assassin in the first place.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45082903]No I think you are retarded for posting a picture, this is just an illustration that really holds no merit other than being an image of some women in the march. If you actually read about it you would realize it was started by women, but quickly turned into a mob of EVERYONE.[/QUOTE] you do realise that there were at least 7,000 women at the march on versailles right [editline]13th June 2014[/editline] and i'm guessing considering your incredible knowledge of history you're also unaware of the declaration of the rights of woman and the female citizen
How did they have female characters in multiplayer then?
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;45082769]I think he was referring to this lovely video from IGN. [/QUOTE] But no one even mentioned misogyny in this video. Did you even watch it?
[QUOTE=Raidyr;45083007]But no one even mentioned misogyny in this video. Did you even watch it?[/QUOTE] I did, actually, all the way through. Misogyny was never mentioned, but I remember that video getting a shitload of flak for the guy who gave weird reasons as to why stabbing female soldiers in CoD was somehow a weird and uncomfortable thing. If SuperMuffin was referring to something else and I screwed up, then I apologize.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;45082930]Actually, I agree with you on that point, and if Ubisoft had said that a playable female assassin didn't fit their vision of the game or the story they were trying to tell, that at least would be defensible. However, that's not the answer they gave. The answer they gave was that it would take too many resources and, in their own words, would require 8,000 unique animations. That was a bullshit answer, and even fellow professional animators (including Assassin's Creed III's former lead animator) called them out on it. Their crappy answer is the "controversy" here, far less so than not having a female assassin in the first place.[/QUOTE] Maybe they don't want to step on toes by coming out and saying their "real" reason for not including one? I mean, in today's Western video-game climate you're going to get a lot of pissy people if you intentionally exclude female characters "because they don't fit our vision." At least with this you have an excuse that's supposedly out of their hands.
Its their game world imo, they can do anything they want in it. If they dont want a female, then so be it. Its their own fictional universe.
So a bunch of pissed of French women with knives and anything they can find to hit people with start mobbing towards Versailles and then AFTER the party had already started the mob attracted a few men (mostly just more pissed off women though). Furthermore when an artist of the time put the popular view of the mob into a painting, since there was no film at the time, all the artist showed us was a wave of violent looking French women. Even if you're right, and even if the mob turned into mostly men after it started (which it didn't) the artist was under the impression this was mainly, or wholly a women's march. Which led Frenchmen of the future to subsequently believe women of the time were powerful enough to sack Versailles. Which leads two Frenchmen named comrade and max to question why the hell there aren't any empowered French women as playable characters! (oh also a bunch of other people that don't learn history from wherever the hell you learned it from)
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;45083029]Maybe they don't want to step on toes by coming out and saying their "real" reason for not including one? I mean, in today's Western video-game climate you're going to get a lot of pissy people if you intentionally exclude female characters "because they don't fit our vision." At least with this you have an excuse that's supposedly out of their hands.[/QUOTE] Personally, I think that saying "It doesn't fit our vision" is a more valid excuse than "It takes too many resources," especially given how [I]massive[/I] Ubisoft is between all its development studios. At least when you say it doesn't fit your vision, there's a valid defense that can be applied to it, even if it's a somewhat tenuous one. If your answer is you don't have the resources...when chances are good you DO have the resources, people are going to call you on it. Ubisoft didn't help their case when they exaggerated the amount of work that would be necessary.
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;45083028]I did, actually, all the way through. Misogyny was never mentioned, but I remember that video getting a shitload of flak for the guy who gave weird reasons as to why stabbing female soldiers in CoD was somehow a weird and uncomfortable thing. If SuperMuffin was referring to something else and I screwed up, then I apologize.[/QUOTE] I just don't see how it backs up his statement that people said Ghosts was misogynistic because it let you stab women. [editline]12th June 2014[/editline] To be honest though I'm more interested in HoodedSniper's dissertation on how women weren't a part of the French Revolution and wouldn't be included because of Ubisoft's tradition of realism in their games :v:
[QUOTE=Raidyr;45083063]I just don't see how it backs up his statement that people said Ghosts was misogynistic because it let you stab women. [editline]12th June 2014[/editline] To be honest though I'm more interested in HoodedSniper's dissertation on how women weren't a part of the French Revolution and wouldn't be included because of Ubisoft's tradition of realism in their games :v:[/QUOTE] I never said they werent part of it, obviously they were since everyone was involved, I said they werent the biggest factors in it, they have a few things but still Women back then werent taken very seriously. Plus Ubisoft does do history justice, it has a fuckload of history in it and a ton of shit to read and find, it only becomes silly when it involves gameplay, but they always have shit that lets you read more about it that is accurate. I feel like you just choose to read certain stuff I say yet ignore the rest, even if they are in the same sentence.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45082718]Also a dressed female in uniform would raise a fuckload of suspicion in a time like the French Revolution.[/QUOTE] If the MCs so far can hide in plain sight just by wearing a hood and changing fabric colours sometimes, I'm pretty sure a woman could do the same. Hell, their outfits aren't exactly tight fitting. Put the hood up, wear a chest binder, and there'd be nothing to visually out you as a woman.
I'm going to play and try to enjoy Unity for its gameplay merits. If not being a female is a deal breaker for you, then I don't think you were really interested in the game to begin with.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45083151]Women back then werent taken very seriously. [/QUOTE] This is complete horseshit though. The French Revolution is regarded as the first "egalitarian" revolution because of women standing side by side with men and being active in the process, violent as it was. Even if you look back a few years to the American Revolution, women weren't nearly at the forefront of radical change as men were, instead electing to help the colonial effort from the background, if they helped at all. I don't even know why you are trying to make a history argument when this is about Ubisofts shitty excuse, one that goes out the window if you have played any Assassins Creed game between AC2 and Black Flag, all of which had atleast one female character in multiplayer or female Brotherhood assassins.
How did this issue get to huge? This is literally the smallest, most insignificant shit they could possibly complain about. I just love how everyone points out that Ubisoft definitely lied when they said it wasn't worth the effort to put a chick in the game. What else would be the reason? Because they want revenge on women??
[QUOTE=MegaJohnny;45083220]If the MCs so far can hide in plain sight just by wearing a hood and changing fabric colours sometimes, I'm pretty sure a woman could do the same. Hell, their outfits aren't exactly tight fitting. Put the hood up, wear a chest binder, and there'd be nothing to visually out you as a woman.[/QUOTE] If female Assassins can romp about Muslim Istanbul in the 15 century then there is no reason they shouldn't be in 18th century Paris. It's a dumb excuse and I'm sure he knows it. [editline]12th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Robber;45083251]How did this issue get to huge? This is literally the smallest, most insignificant shit they could possibly complain about.[/QUOTE] Because Ubisoft doesn't have the smartest PR folks.
Most games should have a character creator IMO
Here is how they should have done it: "Hey we noticed there were no female playable characters seen in that coop gameplay, what gives? Female assassins are usually important secondary characters in this game" Ubisoft: "The four characters seen in the trailer are not the only ones available" if they plan to add some or Ubisoft: "The story we wrote calls for 4 comrades in arms, and a woman wouldn't really fit that theme" if they don't "It would have taken too much work and double the voice lines and thousands of animations but please ignore the last 4 games we have made that had female assassins in them" is transparent as fuck bullshit.
People need to realize exactly what the issue here is. The issue isn't [I]directly[/I] that Unity doesn't have female characters or a female lead. The biggest problem is the horse-shit excuse from Ubisoft's part as to why. It's one thing entirely to flat-out admit "Having a female protagonist in Unity is not the direction we were going for.", but Ubisoft is trying to have us believe that "We're not sexist! Really! We just lack the resources and technology as one of the biggest game company's to produce female polygons." which is [B]beyond outrageous[/B] as an answer. Also the argument "But it doesn't affect gameplay so it doesn't matter" is null- because by the same logic nobody would mind if the protagonist or any of the co-op characters were female.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45082867]Why do devs need to show equal representation in a video game? Why do they have to pander?[/QUOTE] I'm going to straight up skip the arguments for better diversity in games and jump to something I think you can understand: Surely I can't be the only one who is bored of seeing the same exact template of a character everywhere? You know what I mean, white, 20 to 30 years old, subtle/medium stubble, medium build/physique, dark brown hair (either straight or shaggy), same basic voice/timbre... [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45082867]Why cant games be what the devs want and why do they have to be treated like some fucking political agenda out to get groups of people??[/QUOTE] Social criticism belongs in all mediums and is an important intellectual discussion that should be had. It's not about politics. [editline]12th June 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;45083151]I never said they werent part of it, obviously they were since everyone was involved, I said they werent the biggest factors in it, they have a few things but still Women back then werent taken very seriously.[/QUOTE] I feel like you should visit [url]www.reddit.com/r/badhistory[/url] one of these days.
[QUOTE=MegaJohnny;45083220]If the MCs so far can hide in plain sight just by wearing a hood and changing fabric colours sometimes, I'm pretty sure a woman could do the same. Hell, their outfits aren't exactly tight fitting. Put the hood up, wear a chest binder, and there'd be nothing to visually out you as a woman.[/QUOTE] Gonna go off-topic for a minute here and say this is the one thing that's bugged me in every Assassin's Creed since 1. A dude wearing (most of the time) white, long robes with a face-obscuring hood, leather and metal abdominal plating, and toting numerous weapons on their belts and backs shouldn't be trying to blend in with a crowd of regular, unarmed people in the first place. It's baffling that guards weren't constantly on high alert with the knowledge that a murderer was loose in the streets, even if there weren't any posters up or heralds warning people about it. It's baffling that they couldn't spot the shady looking hooded guy who clearly stuck out like a sore thumb when surrounded by normal citizens. Blending only worked logically in AC1 because Altair could only hide with monks who were dressed in long, white robes similar to his own, and there was no way to decrease his notoriety so guards later in the game were always searching for him. Every MC after the first game should've kept their regular civilian clothes and used nothing but the hidden blade to kill, a concealed dagger in a boot or up a sleeve for fending off guards, and some lightweight leather or chainmail armor under their clothes so they wouldn't be killed in just one hit.
[QUOTE=Robber;45083251]How did this issue get to huge? This is literally the smallest, most insignificant shit they could possibly complain about. I just love how everyone points out that Ubisoft definitely lied when they said it wasn't worth the effort to put a chick in the game. What else would be the reason? Because they want revenge on women??[/QUOTE] everyone keeps saying this is the single most insignificant complaint anyone could have but i wonder what would happen if in some parallel universe, game developers began to refuse to include male characters in their games. suddenly, every game protagonist is a queer woman of color or someone along those lines. no more men. no more white people. would all these people still agree that it doesn't matter? the character you're playing as is a pointless complaint, so no one would care if games ceased to represent majority groups. who cares?? game developers don't HAVE to include white males if they don't want to! if something like that were to happen, though, we'd never actually hear the end of it. it would be 'pandering,' it would be 'absurd' etc etc. the fact of the matter is that the people that don't think representation is an important issue are the people who are ALWAYS REPRESENTED in popular media. of course you don't think it's a problem, you've never experienced being on the short end of the stick.
[QUOTE=Limed00d;45081130]Basically they're saying "ugh too much work" when really, it isn't. The fans have been crying out for a playable female character yet Ubisoft keeps rolling the man train.[/QUOTE] I could somewhat see the voiceover, narrative, and model excuse, but not the animation scapegoat. The AAA industry uses mocap.
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