• Riot president: "It's pretty frustrating when people try to position us as greedy"
    112 replies, posted
[QUOTE=mon_ons;43390481]User names and join date make threads about League of Legends or DOTA2 turn into wars about which game is better?????????[/QUOTE] That answer was to "why is it that people on facepunch cant be as cool as this?"
I don't know how greedy LoL is compared to other F2Ps, but I can see how its grind for major and minor gameplay elements reeks of greed, and the interview fails to address any actual arguments in that regard from what I can see. Personally after playing that-which-shall-not-be-named I find it difficult to come back to a limited, if rotating roster of characters (which is actually made me quit LoL back then, so call me biased). I had no idea how important it actually was for me to do an A-Z against bots until *that game* let me. It felt like the real tutorial since it finally let me understand teamfights, team compositions and laning matchups in a way no video or wiki article could since this medium is interactive. Also, while the minor effects of runes and masteries I can overlook (tho they are straight upgrades, not even side-grades, which stinks), it seems like many characters are designed with Flash in mind, which seems like even more things artificially increasing the gap between newbies and veterans way beyond the difference in experience. So I can see how people think Riot's greedy. They feel this gap is so big they need to close it with money in order to have a fair fight against someone just as skilled and experienced as themselves but with bought advantages on top. I don't know how much this perspective holds up in the light of MMR, but IMO it makes LoL look greedy on paper when so many important gameplay aspects are behind grindwalls. But instead of mentioning any of that it seems the interview dipped into unrelated topics (we support eSports!) or even the emotional (we're gamers, too!), which doesn't help anyone IMO. [b]TL;DR:[/b] wtf, article's not talking about monetization of major gameplay elements
Did anyone actually read the article, or is everyone just going off the headline again
[QUOTE=Mastahamma;43390532]Did anyone actually read the article, or is everyone just going off the headline again[/QUOTE] The headline is a quote from Tryndamere, so you might as well just go with that.
I don't think riot are greedy and whatever I kinda think they're stuck I guess. back when they were a small company just starting out they needed their heroes to cost money so they could make a profit. I'll bet if they made all their heroes free for everyone they'd probably have some people upset considering they paid/grinded for their content whereas now anyone can get them at the drop of a hat or I dunno maybe they just wanna keep the grind. I think it's a mistake to restrict playable characters though back when I played it, it didn't seem that money grabbing though. I have bought a dozen or so skins, and on some occasions, a hero or two. after going to Dota 2 I could see how a large character pool at first could be daunting but I think it's for the best not to restrict anything gameplay-wise
Having every champion unlocked right away would probably be a little overwhelming for someone who has never played a moba before.
[QUOTE=Adnap;43390606]Having every champion unlocked right away would probably be a little overwhelming for someone who has never played a moba before.[/QUOTE] that's true. Dota tries to counteract this a bit by having a 'limited pool' thing in the Tutorials menu which should be the go-to place for a new player
[QUOTE=Jojje;43390616]that's true. Dota tries to counteract this a bit by having a 'limited pool' thing in the Tutorials menu which should be the go-to place for a new player[/QUOTE] Aren't new players forced to play the tutorial? I like that. [QUOTE=ashxu;43388795]The original DotA was a custom map/mod, not a game with a f2p model.[/QUOTE] He is talking about fucking Dota 2.
[QUOTE=Antimuffin;43390656]Aren't new players forced to play the tutorial? I like that.[/QUOTE] not sure about that. I started playing when there was no tutorial in place. But on first startup it asks you how familiar you are of games of that nature so I guess it sends you off to the tutorial if you say you got no clue
[QUOTE=Adnap;43390606]Having every champion unlocked right away would probably be a little overwhelming for someone who has never played a moba before.[/QUOTE] Not at all. If you've never played a moba before you can just pick anything, you don't know shit about the game yet.
[QUOTE=Adnap;43390606]Having every champion unlocked right away would probably be a little overwhelming for someone who has never played a moba before.[/QUOTE] Being only able to play a few characters after getting past the start is pretty frustrating for people who have a brain and can learn stuff.
No matter how you look at it, having to pay for champions is dumb. Sure, there's way to earn them by playing the game but it takes fucking ages. Throughout LoL's lifespan Riot has gradually made everything more expensive and harder to obtain freely. A new champion costs roughly 8-10 USD I believe, and they increase the price of the in-game currency for new champions for the first week that champion is released, so people have to either wait a week or spend [I]even more[/I] of their hard-earned in-game currency. Not to mention their new stupid price tiers for their skins, which they actually used as an excuse to [I]increase the price[/I] of some of their already in-game and distributed skins. Imagine if Valve actually went through their shop and made several sets more expensive because they believed they were worth more. They went so far as to attempt to increase the price of a particular skin that they, in the past, specifically promised to never fool with the price of, and when called out on it they backpedaled out of increasing the price of that particular skin. Riot listed out qualifications for what skin meets what tier of price, yet it feels like they just slap a "recall animation" on a mediocre skin just for the sake of having it a higher price than the skin's actually worth. Also having a voice filter over the default one apparently makes the skin more valuable. I used to be really into League but as Riot just started making everything more expensive and made it harder for me to obtain champions I just kinda lost interest. I liked being able to purchase champions on release using IP but with their new system it feels like it's extremely inefficient to do it now since I'm basically throwing away 1k IP just for not waiting a week. I still like the game and some of the characters but I just don't want to support a company that's so in over their heads they feel like they can do anything they want business-wise and their playerbase will just go with it. Sure there are many times where the community as stood up against Riot and they listened, but there are just as many times where they ignored the community and did it anyway (like retiring old Legendary skins, only to have brought them back a couple times since then so people will be willing to throw money at them for their "legacy" value.) The only thing Riot has the higher ground in terms of pricing/business practices are their "Ultimate" tier skins. Dota 2's equivalent "Arcana" skins cost 35 fucking dollars while I believe Ultimate skins cost 25, while doing a lot more than Arcana skins do.
[QUOTE=Keychain;43390931]The only thing Riot has the higher ground in terms of pricing/business practices are their "Ultimate" tier skins. Dota 2's equivalent "Arcana" skins cost 35 fucking dollars while I believe Ultimate skins cost 25, while doing a lot more than Arcana skins do.[/QUOTE] $25 is 2500 RP. An Ultimate skin is 3250 RP.
[QUOTE=Banned?;43391436]$25 is 2500 RP. An Ultimate skin is 3250 RP.[/QUOTE] Actually I just checked to be sure, $20 is 2800 RP if you buy it all at once. [img]http://i.imgur.com/ySorda4.png[/img] So we're both kinda wrong. [editline]2nd January 2014[/editline] There's also the fact that Ultimate skins go on a huge sale for the first week they're released. So you can get an Ultimate skin for cheaper than a Legendary skin at release.
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;43390498]That answer was to "why is it that people on facepunch cant be as cool as this?"[/QUOTE] Re-read his post. By "cool" he meant "they can have threads about 1 game not turn into a fight about a different game being better, even though they have very little rules". You would think because we have more rules and we're not anonymous(sorta), that we could have league threads not turn into a dota2 is better thread. [QUOTE=Jojje;43390576]back when they were a small company just starting out they needed their heroes to cost money so they could make a profit.[/QUOTE] Which makes sense, but then you realize that as time went on, heroes became more expensive. When the game came out the heroes were priced based on Riot's opinion of "difficulty to play", so easier heroes were cheaper. Slowly Riot started releasing more heroes that were in the "hardest" difficulty tier, so they cost a lot and then they just kinda said fuck tiered pricing and every new champ was highest/most expensive tier. Finally, not to long ago they made it so brand new heroes cost much more(1500 IP) free currency for the first week of release to encourage people to buy it with RP. Although occasionally they reduce one of the highest tier heroes cost to the tier below it.
[QUOTE=Keychain;43391850]Actually I just checked to be sure, $20 is 2800 RP if you buy it all at once. [img]http://i.imgur.com/ySorda4.png[/img] So we're both kinda wrong. [editline]2nd January 2014[/editline] There's also the fact that Ultimate skins go on a huge sale for the first week they're released. So you can get an Ultimate skin for cheaper than a Legendary skin at release.[/QUOTE] at least in dota arcana skins can drop and you can also trade for them. [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] i've been in a game where somebody got the arcana head skin for lina as an end of the match drop.
[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;43397681]at least in dota arcana skins can drop and you can also trade for them. [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] i've been in a game where somebody got the arcana head skin for lina as an end of the match drop.[/QUOTE] Yeah, at the end of the day Dota 2's cosmetic system will probably always be superior simply because there's an economy and drop system built around it. I was trying to give Riot a[I] little[/I] bit of credit but even that's difficult.
Some of the stuff they do is downright greedy (like putting some champions up on sale but only with RP, not IP that you gain while playing the game normally) but otherwise pretty much everything important can be gained while playing. Riot doesn't have the same massive income as Valve so they can't have nearly as much completely free, directly available stuff in their game as there is in dota.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;43397827]Some of the stuff they do is downright greedy (like putting some champions up on sale but only with RP, not IP that you gain while playing the game normally) but otherwise pretty much everything important can be gained while playing. Riot doesn't have the same massive income as Valve so they can't have nearly as much completely free, directly available stuff in their game as there is in dota.[/QUOTE] They're owned by Tencent. They can afford to make things cheaper. Or at least make things go on sale for IP too.
Just to put into perspective regarding "Wintermint" the alternative LoL client. It was created by AstralFoxy, a close personal friend of mine and I was kinda working/helping him with the client towards the end and streamed the client the day it was released etc. Wintermint was vastly better than LoL's in every way, resources, and features. The features even let you have unlimited mastery pages and can edit runes mid-game. There was spectate/replay functionality as well as custom game modes/and a champion-maker SDK (in the works) It was shut down because this is Riot's territory. Wintermint is better than LoL's client, which is the main access point. If you lose control over the main access point, you're at the mercy of AstralFoxy if he decided one day "lol time 2 go rogue" Wintermint was made by him, and him only, and it took less than 6 months to make. Compared to riot's client, which is a sack of shit, and hasnt changed in 2 years, thats why people are upset, and call them greedy. I personally find Riot greedy as well as poor coders (there is data that should never be sent to you, very, very VERY exploitable) tl;dr wintermint was too good, riot is indeed greedy imo [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Ragekipz;43399455]They're owned by Tencent. They can afford to make things cheaper. Or at least make things go on sale for IP too.[/QUOTE] no, tencent is just a massive shareholder, and distributor in china
[QUOTE=Ragekipz;43390702]Not at all. If you've never played a moba before you can just pick anything, you don't know shit about the game yet.[/QUOTE] Also, nobody expects you to learn all of a moba off the bat. Dota or LoL, it's not gonna happen. Arguably by giving you free reign of all the heroes from the start you have the potential to learn the game's mechanics faster if you actually try to. DotA has pretty memorable hero designs - within about 2 weeks of me starting you could point at a hero and I'd tell you what they were about.
[QUOTE=ThatSprite;43400300]Also, nobody expects you to learn all of a moba off the bat. Dota or LoL, it's not gonna happen. Arguably by giving you free reign of all the heroes from the start you have the potential to learn the game's mechanics faster if you actually try to. DotA has pretty memorable hero designs - within about 2 weeks of me starting you could point at a hero and I'd tell you what they were about.[/QUOTE] The thing is, the metagame in Dota and LoL don't function in the same way at all. LoL is a lot more restrictive and heroes almost all fall under one, maybe two roles and these roles are always set in the same lane. Which is why a hero rotation system works because it essentially showcases two meta-compliant teams with each role fulfilled by a champion. Dota 2 on the other hand as a much more open meta with heroes being able to fit in much more situations, roles and lanes than in LoL and as such a restricted rotation model wouldn't work at all. I do think the system in LoL is pretty frustrating and really annoying most of the time though. I can understand restricting choices to an understandable roster for newcomers, but when you reach level 30 you really shouldn't need that anymore and restricting champions until permanently unlocked really drags down the skill of some people because they'll only play a certain role and will refrain from trying out new characters since they require IP to be unlocked.
[QUOTE=TrannyAlert;43389613]I personally think Riot are greedy, especially with the amount they're raking in and doing nothing for the game. Just releasing new skins. Wow thanks riot more things to spend my money on.[/QUOTE] Every season the game gets changed up to the point all previous metas (except standard top, mid, adc, support lanes. Including new vision changes and brush trimming really freshened the game up. They do alot for the game actually. They've actually begun making more gamemodes too. [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] however i hate paying for champions. but i prefer LoL over Dota any day though and i play both with friends.
[QUOTE=Monkey san;43400890]Every season the game gets changed up to the point all previous metas (except standard top, mid, adc, support lanes. Including new vision changes and brush trimming really freshened the game up. [/QUOTE] The meta hasn't changed at all. At best you change the items and the summoner spells. The masteries have been changed, but the cookie cutter builds are all ready. The runes haven't changed at all.
OK, so I don't get why people complain so much about the IP gain. Not trying to start an argument, I just want to understand that POV. I personally have played long enough to have unlocked ALL the champions in the game at this point. Currently, they release a new champion every month or so - at a cost of 7800 IP for a week, then 6300 afterwards. I find that in the month between each release I will build up around 25000 IP - enough to buy 4-5 of the most expensive champions, or lots more of the cheaper ones - so how come everyone else finds it so difficult to get IP? I don't even play a huge amount - between 2-3 games a day, depending how long I take to get the first win bonus.
[QUOTE=SataniX;43401345]I find that in the month between each release I will build up around 25000 IP - enough to buy 4-5 of the most expensive champions, or lots more of the cheaper ones - so how come everyone else finds it so difficult to get IP? I don't even play a huge amount - between 2-3 games a day, depending how long I take to get the first win bonus.[/QUOTE] Bullshit, it's impossible to get 25k ip a month from only 2-3 games a day.
[QUOTE=mon_ons;43401617]Bullshit, it's impossible to get 25k ip a month from only 2-3 games a day.[/QUOTE] you can get around 12 - 13k a month if you play 2-3 games a day minimum. you get around 250 for first win of the day, lets say 30 days in a month. 250*30 = 7500 (because of win of the day) thats one win a day. now for lets say 2 games after that 150*30 = 4500 and this is roughly estimated because you can get more then 150 per win. [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] it's possible to hit 18k a month i guess if you play LoL alot and in the weekends i can easily do 6 games day.
[QUOTE=Monkey san;43401647]you can get around 12 - 13k a month if you play 2-3 games a day minimum. you get around 250 for first win of the day, lets say 30 days in a month. 250*30 = 7500 thats one win a day. now for lets say 2 games after that 150*30 = 4500 and this is roughly estimated because you can get more then 150 per win. [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] it's possible to hit 18k a month i guess if you play LoL alot and in the weekends i can easily do 6 games day.[/QUOTE] There's a lot wrong with your post. For one, if you lose you lose a lot of time. Sometimes you can get first win in your first game, but sometimes it isn't that simple. And even after that, if you count the ABSOLUTE best case scenario(surrender at 20, first wins only) you get 7800/250 = 31,2 games x 20 minutes = 624 minutes(Almost 10 and a half hours) just for 1 single character.
[QUOTE=Monkey san;43401647]you can get around 12 - 13k a month if you play 2-3 games a day minimum. you get around 250 for first win of the day, lets say 30 days in a month. 250*30 = 7500 thats one win a day. now for lets say 2 games after that 150*30 = 4500 and this is roughly estimated because you can get more then 150 per win. [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] it's possible to hit 18k a month i guess if you play LoL alot and in the weekends i can easily do 6 games day.[/QUOTE] Doing quick math based on the available information on the wiki, you can get 17550 IP for 3 wins a day for a month assuming they all lasted 55 mins(max time modifier for non-ranked matches). That's not 25k and it's merely a drop in the bucket when you realize how much it costs for just the champions. [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] In Janurary of last year someone did the math and the total cost for all the champions was 412,000 IP. FOR JUST THE CHAMPIONS, that's not even taking in to account rune pages and runes AND it was a year ago, so more champions have been added, raising the total even higher.
[QUOTE=MrHeadHopper;43388802]Can we just talk about that last point? LoL is ten to twenty times worse than any other MOBA/doterlike in the genre just because it has the most tedious grinding piece of shit system actively restricting you from playing the heroes you want. It only takes you a whole year and a half to grind for that hero you want to play as you play the heroes that you don't and thus lose interest in the game. That's probably the main reason why I jumped LoL and just started playing Dota2. The IP grind wasn't this bad when I first started playing, where they gave compensation at times and the IP gain was simply better. I think if it wasn't for that me and my buddies might've just stayed away from LoL entirely in its early year. I know they've gotta pay the bills and shit, but I feel way more inclined to spend money on Dota 2 simply because it offered me ALL of the gameplay straight up and not bit by bit...[/QUOTE] It doesn't even take a fucking week to get the most expensive champions. [editline]3rd January 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=TrannyAlert;43389613]I personally think Riot are greedy, especially with the amount they're raking in and doing nothing for the game. Just releasing new skins. Wow thanks riot more things to spend my money on.[/QUOTE] Releasing new skins, multiple new champions, new gamemodes and maps. Pretty greedy.
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