• Blizzard CEO on loot boxes: 'I don’t think Overwatch belongs in that controversy'
    116 replies, posted
Loot boxes are perfectly fine, until... A- they can provide people with unfair advantages, like items having special effects that help you ingame B- sell them instead of making them drops C- all of the above at once Overwatch would be perfectly fine, since they were kind of a "reward" for hitting a milestone, if it didn't have a fucking loot box shop on the same screen where you open them. 50 lootboxes for 40 euros? No cent is worth 50 sprays and a legendary. And yes it is a bit of a bitch to have to "deal" with the event exclusive skins, but ffs, they're skins. Just skins. And they also lower in "price" the next year so ehh. There would be a big problem if those skins actually granted you stats that helped you ingame imo, and what Activision has in mind for gaming is absolutely horrible. All in all, microtransactions are SHIT. If they are just based around skins, I honestly don't think anyone should give too much care about it. But when you include in it DLCs* and stuff that gives advantages and the kind of shit Activision is gonna start pulling, then theres a big problem. *DLCs of old actually made sense. They used to be worthwhile additions that really completed a game for like 15 dollars, and not a bunch of maps or a single fucking mission.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;52873760] If you're furious at Blizzard for doing this you should be livid at every reasonably large developer in the industry. Valve, who was famous for providing free updates with TF2 eventually decided they couldn't keep developing TF2 when everyone had already bought it and their profit had significantly dropped off without another source of income.[/QUOTE] yeah they introduced it to TF2 3 years after the release, with constant free updates and content up to that point and TF2 wasn't even a full price game on release either, and came bundled in a value pack with other games TF2 is the worst possible comparison you could use here because it was extremely consumer friendly - the manconomy update was introduced a long time after the game was released so it felt like it was to continue the support for the game, which has gone on for years Overwatch had lootboxes and microtransactions in from day one, double dipping on an audience that had [I]just [/I]bought the game. They didn't need that money to "keep the servers going", or to support the game for the next year, and even if they did, then they ludicrously mismanaged their resources and shouldn't have made a multiplayer shooter that requires ongoing support [editline]9th November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Simplemac3;52873664] Let me ask this. What alternatives do people propose to this system? Letting the player directly pay a prenium for cosmetics they want?[/QUOTE] if you're running a free to play game, yup if you're running a premium game, nope, stop double dipping on your customers if you're using microtransactions and additional pricing schemes to continue extended support for your game, fine - but if you are doing this in the first year of your game's release, then you are doing it for greed and that's that
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;52874420]yeah they introduced it to TF2 3 years after the release, with constant free updates and content up to that point and TF2 wasn't even a full price game on release either, and came bundled in a value pack with other games TF2 is the worst possible comparison you could use here because it was extremely consumer friendly - the manconomy update was introduced a long time after the game was released so it felt like it was to continue the support for the game, which has gone on for years Overwatch had lootboxes and microtransactions in from day one, double dipping on an audience that had [I]just [/I]bought the game. They didn't need that money to "keep the servers going", or to support the game for the next year, and even if they did, then they ludicrously mismanaged their resources and shouldn't have made a multiplayer shooter that requires ongoing support [editline]9th November 2017[/editline] if you're running a free to play game, yup if you're running a premium game, nope, stop double dipping on your customers if you're using microtransactions and additional pricing schemes to continue extended support for your game, fine - but if you are doing this in the first year of your game's release, then you are doing it for greed and that's that[/QUOTE] TF2 was one of the best selling games on Steam and the mannconomy update definitely was [I]not [/I] received as "oh well they need the money lol," it was seen as scummy as hell and the updates gradually declined in quality from then on out. Hats and weapons arguably take more of a grind and cosmetics involve more of a random chance in TF2, they just allow you to trade (which created a fucking awful virtual economy full of manipulative scumbags) or pay outright, and allowing people to pay outright was what definitively proved that micro-transactions were here to stay across the entire industry. TF2's micro-transactions are ultimately handled fucking [I]worse[/I] than Overwatch. It was the game that set the standard of putting weapons and cosmetics behind a glass window while making them a needless hassle to get so you're incentivized to pay. It was a good game but I think people are [I]way too eager [/I]to look past how it handled micro-transactions. Also do you really think they could introduce paid lootboxes or an in-game-store later in the game's lifespan without there being even worse backlash then there is now? They clearly always planned for cosmetics. [editline]9th November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=DiBBs27;52873996]Even cosmetic lootboxes play on a lot of people's weakness of jealousy, where they wan't the item too because they like how it looks. Cosmetics are literally in game advertisements to get players to spend more money. So when you take that concept and put it into a randomized system, you have now created something that is called gambling. Spending money in the hopes of getting the thing you want, until you get it. If you ever get it that is..[/QUOTE] At this point you're arguing that seeing something that somebody else has that you want counts as a predatory advertisement. I don't know where to go with that. I can see what you're trying to say, but I've just never seen it that way, personally. I can look at something and go "wow that's a cool skin" but I guess I just never saw a point to paying money for cosmetics? It never even really seems like an option. Alright, to sum up my take here: -Lootboxes aren't going away unless the ESRB or even Govt steps in. They're too profitable, and people aren't going to vote with their wallets and stop paying for them, that became obvious a long time ago. -I think lootboxes or other [I]c[/I][I]osmetic [/I]micro-transactions are probably better for a multiplayer game like this than DLC, subscription, or expansion packs if they want to continue profiting from their game. One makes colors and hats annoying to get, one has a tangible effect on gameplay usually splitting up the community, I think it's a really obvious choice. -I think the assertions that development is 90% lootcrate focused and development is absurdly slow are honestly kind of ridiculous at this point. I could be proven wrong as time goes on, but I've definitely seen slower. -I think the points on seasonal crates causing people with gambling susceptibilities to feel pressured are legitimate and probably the biggest concern, I also think it's still one of the better AAA executions out there right now and you really, [I]really [/I]shouldn't care so much about collecting virtual cosmetics if you're able. I don't know what to tell you. Simulated not-technically-gambling has been going on forever, it's an issue that goes outside the purview of videogames.
[QUOTE=FlakTheMighty;52872574]Trading cards are gambling too, but the difference is there's a physical item and you can sell/trade what you don't want. You're stuck with whatever you get in Overwatch. Virtual trading cards are just bullshit.[/QUOTE] In terms of Magic, you get a piece of cardboard that more than likely loses all value after it rotates out of standard, if it had any value to begin with.
It's sad when Heroes of the Storm has a way better loot system than Overwatch, and it's fucking free to play.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;52870804]I'll say this though, it's fair to be frustrated and ask why you straight-up can't access event arcade modes at other times of year. I think they aren't really intended to be standalone gamemodes and they wouldn't have a lot of longevity if you tried to play them regularly, but I can see why one might find it a little screwy that they add new gameplay content and you can only play it once a year.[/QUOTE] Business. Gets people to log in more during event season, gets people to buy lootboxes more during season. Why people are upset about cosmetics is beyond me. These companies are businesses, their primary goal is to make money. As far as quality goes, AAA developers like Blizzard deliver a polished product. Gameplay comes first, as it should for a competitive game like Overwatch. There's a pretty clear divide between paying $60 USD for a competitive shooter experience, and then extra if you want to get more in-game cosmetic goodies. Maybe it's just me, but I'm perfectly fine with the rate you get loot boxes without paying cash in Overwatch. Compared to games like CSGO? There's no way in hell you're getting anything worth more than a few cents when it comes to in-game drops. You [I]need[/I] to spend money on skins/keys/crates in CSGO, and you [I]need[/I] to be extremely lucky while opening crates at $3 a pop to get something good.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;52870722]Is it possible for them to win? "God, I hate dupes." They remove dupes. "Now I can't get coins from dupes!"[/QUOTE] This is something that chuffs my nuts pretty fuckin' badly and just shows the collective stupidity of the Overwatch playerbase. Dupes used to be common. So what? You get dupes, you get coins, you buy what you want. I have over half the items for almost every character in Overwatch, I'm practically just opening loot boxes for dupes now. Do you get dupes anymore? Not really. I [I]might[/I] get one dupe a box. Now it's impossible to just save coins for events because you don't get any anymore. The Overwatch base complained themselves into forcing them to buy more loot boxes for events because you can't just save up in the off-event season anymore. It's mind boggling that anyone [I]asked[/I] for this without realizing how badly it would screw themselves over.
[QUOTE=RainbowStalin;52869705]I guess they just need to go back to making each update paid dlc or introduced a WoW subscription fee. Maybe then people will be happy.[/QUOTE] TF2 existed for several years with regular updates before they invented the lootbox, then they made the game free 8 months later and when they added the lootbox the game had already fallen to $10-20 a copy, $5 on sale and it of course was already in the orange box. Don't be ridiculous. [editline]9th November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Antimuffin;52872286]I dislike people who defend the lootboxes as a way for Blizzard to deliver free post-launch content and have servers running. The game made 1 BILLION dollars in the first year of release. Isn't that amount enough to deliver some free content of the release and pay servers? Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2 don't have lootboxes, only 1-2 DLCs and can deliver free content and have their servers running.[/QUOTE] and starcraft 2 just went f2p as well lmao
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;52874921]TF2 was one of the best selling games on Steam and the mannconomy update definitely was [I]not [/I] received as "oh well they need the money lol," it was seen as scummy as hell and the updates gradually declined in quality from then on out. Hats and weapons arguably take more of a grind and cosmetics involve more of a random chance in TF2, they just allow you to trade (which created a fucking awful virtual economy full of manipulative scumbags) or pay outright, and allowing people to pay outright was what definitively proved that micro-transactions were here to stay across the entire industry. TF2's micro-transactions are ultimately handled fucking [I]worse[/I] than Overwatch. It was the game that set the standard of putting weapons and cosmetics behind a glass window while making them a needless hassle to get so you're incentivized to pay. It was a good game but I think people are [I]way too eager [/I]to look past how it handled micro-transactions. Also do you really think they could introduce paid lootboxes or an in-game-store later in the game's lifespan without there being even worse backlash then there is now? They clearly always planned for cosmetics..[/QUOTE] are you kidding, TF2 makes Overwatch's system look downright predatory - including a player run market gives players freedom to find items from an alternate source - you can say it was "filled with manipulative scumbags" but at the end of the day, I'll take manipulative scumbags over Overwatch's system of paying to roll a dice with the vague hope that I'll get what I want, bearing in mind that I also managed to get steam games out of the Steam marketplace also TF2 is a free to play game and the fact that the manconomy was complained about is, once again, evidence of how far we've fallen imagine if TF2 had been a full price premium game, and thrown in microtransactions/lootboxes from day one - do you think that would have flown back then? you don't have to imagine it because overwatch [I]did it[/I]
I don't even recall people shitting on mannconomy when it was new The only thing close I saw was some guy thinking you couldn't drop the new weapons, complaining about it and trading his hats for a black box That had to be a minority opinion at the time
[QUOTE=Captain Chalky;52875608]No it fucking doesn't have. Hots locks ACTUAL GAMEPLAY CONTENT behind a paywall. [I]"But you can just grind virtual currency by playing the game!!!!!"[/I] Whoop-de-doo, it's still pay to win.[/QUOTE] The characters aren't any stronger if you buy them, it's not pay to win. Gold in that game is dropped at such an insane rate especially compared to shit like OW and League of Legends that you'll get new characters extremely fast.
And HOTS doesn't have a $40-$60 upfront cost on top of its microtransactions
[QUOTE=Captain Chalky;52875608]No it fucking doesn't have. Hots locks ACTUAL GAMEPLAY CONTENT behind a paywall. [I]"But you can just grind virtual currency by playing the game!!!!!"[/I] Whoop-de-doo, it's still pay to win.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Captain Chalky;52876330]It's microtransactions, however, affect the game on a fundamental level.[/QUOTE] You do realize that all paid games in existence has content that is locked behind a paywall right??? Weird how a free to play game would have microtransactions as its payment model.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;52874921] At this point you're arguing that seeing something that somebody else has that you want counts as a predatory advertisement. I don't know where to go with that. I can see what you're trying to say, but I've just never seen it that way, personally. I can look at something and go "wow that's a cool skin" but I guess I just never saw a point to paying money for cosmetics? It never even really seems like an option. [/QUOTE] The point is if you could just go and buy the skin you like it wouldn't be a problem. But if you have to gamble until you may or may not eventually get the skin you want, thats where the issue is, and that's when it becomes predatory. It has less to do with the gamer's self control and more to do with the publisher preying on the gamer's lack of self control, while forcing them to gamble for the one item they want.
[QUOTE=Captain Chalky;52876330]Hots's microtransactions affect the game on a fundamental level. A so called "free to play" game puts everything on lockdown until you grind your ears off or pay up. Players who own more heroes have inherent advantage thanks to a more varied pool to pick from. And depending on the map, your team's composition and what the enemy team has... What you pick [B]does[/B] matter. Thus, the game is by definition P2W. In Overwatch, you get everything related to gameplay straight up for that $40. No need to jump through any hoops set up by greedy fuckers. You own everything that matters right from the get go.[/QUOTE] But grinding for the HOTS currency is piss easy. Not only that but there's no hero you "need", and the heroes go on free rotation like any other damn MOBA.
People in here are arguing that locking gameplay content behind paywalls is better than what Overwatch does like the old "it's pay to skip grind!" argument is valid time and flexibility are valuable resources, being able to pay your way to having every option unlocked is a legit advantage no matter how you try to slice it. People tried to argue the same thing with Planetside 2, but it's like arguing that you can [I]technically[/I] get good with every character in a fighting game and win with anybody- some characters or tools are going to be [B]objectively better for the job.[/B] TF2 makes it [I]much harder[/I] to get specific hats/certain kinds of weapon skins without paying for them unless you want to work around community options, and it may end up absurdly expensive depending on what the item is. Getting weapons without using community resources is a godawful randomized grind, too. If there's items I want in an OW event it's either "oh well can't afford it" or I buy the one that's my favorite of the bunch from coins and if I get others out of free crates, bonus. I guess again there, it's just that I chiefly see cosmetics and hats as a neat bonus. [editline]10th November 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=RenegadeCop;52876643]That's actually a major reason why Overwatch blows. There's nothing to unlock, nothing to do, nothing to build up other that your level, which only gives you lootboxes. Microtransactions are the endgame. And that's shit.[/QUOTE] You're saying that Overwatch is shit because there's no skinnerboxing. There isn't a proper carrot-on-a-stick for you. Overwatch isn't fucking Destiny, it's a competitive shooter. The point of the game, what you're playing to do is to get [B]better at the game and enjoy it in the process.[/B] That's why so many updates are purely hero balancing. It shouldn't have TF2 weapons or HOTS heroes to unlock because that would defeat the entire point of having this system of microtransactions in the fucking first place. I'll say again- these are here because everyone else is doing it, players are buying in swathes, and the people in [I]charge[/I] at Acti-Blizzard were never going to accept "well out of the goodness of our hearts we're updating for free without any DLC or micros" when literally everyone else in the industry is doing it, regardless of profit from the game itself. That was never going to happen. This is probably the best version of this shitty problem we've brought upon ourselves other than allowing the player to directly buy cosmetics with real money alongside free crates, which I genuinely think would be better- but this isn't changing [I]at all [/I]unless there's actual regulation. I honestly can't fucking believe some of you would rather have a pay-for-heroes F2P game that hands out cosmetics more liberally than a 40$ title that gives you eveything gameplay relevant for free and a common chance for cosmetics with occasional guarantee through coins.
[QUOTE=Captain Chalky;52876904]We have gone so far that people are actually defending pay to win. That's more disgusting than these lootboxes.[/QUOTE] Locking characters behind pay or grind wall is possibly the scummiest of the practices no matter how much people argue its totally easy to get or how they don't [I]really[/I] affect gameplay that much. Bullshit they do affect gameplay and offer an advantage. And it doesn't matter how easy they are to get if a paying player can have an immediate advantage over a nonpaying playing if they start at the exact same time. Making people pay to unlock characters is absolutely, inexcusably despicable and there will never be a valid defense of the practice.
[QUOTE=Captain Chalky;52876904]We have gone so far that people are actually defending pay to win. That's more disgusting than these lootboxes.[/QUOTE] what do you want them to do? have the game have no microtransactions at all as a free game? come on i agree that leveled unlocks are dumb in every game but its a very different beast when its free to play
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;52876643]That's actually a major reason why Overwatch blows. There's nothing to unlock, nothing to do, nothing to build up other that your level, which only gives you lootboxes. Microtransactions are the endgame. And that's shit.[/QUOTE] The endgame is playing better, what are you talking about? Sometimes I feel like people get so into lootboxes that they turn them into problems and forget what it was all actually about. You don't need the skins. Not on OW, or CSGO, or Dota. All the gameplay is unlocked to you from the beggining, and the objective of these games is to either have fun in their casual modes, or go all out on competitive and "have fun" in ranked matchmaking against tougher people. The endgame you speak of is the higher levels. These aren't MMOs where you level up to "get better" at it. And to be honest, I prefer Blizzard's take on lootboxes instead of Valve's idea. The fact that you need a key that costs almost 3 euros is what completely kills it for me, and I have no idea how people spend so fucking much on these. But back to the endgame theme: I prefer it that way. And this is coming from someone who has played korean MMOs where people would get banned for buying gold from third parties, but was A-OK to buy items from the ingame item shop and then sell them ingame for virtual gold. Pretty much the same as buying gold, but the gold seller was the actual game publisher. Then you bought ingame items, and that would lead you to be the strongest after spending upwards of 10.000 euros. That wasn't about skill, it was all about gear, and I laughed many a time when someone with godlike gear showed up and said there was actual skill involved.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;52876643]That's actually a major reason why Overwatch blows. There's nothing to unlock, nothing to do, nothing to build up other that your level, which only gives you lootboxes. Microtransactions are the endgame. And that's shit.[/QUOTE] by that definition, almost every competitive multiplayer shooter is bad
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;52878033]I mean, they aren't patron saints of the gaming community. Many of them try to exploit gambling addictions or directly cause them in children. CSGO, PUBG, TF2, OW... You may be on to something.[/QUOTE] what a deflection not even saying you're wrong about pseudo-gambling being an issue but you just dodged that dumb comment about endgame somehow being an issue with Overwatch no problemo also definitely to a lesser extent, but that endgame you were talking about is still exploitative. They're just feedback loops, keeping you playing by dangling something shiny in front of you if you play a little bit longer. They often have little to do with the actual quality of the game. For someone like me who has issues with things like OCD I've had problems where I've been kept playing by compulsion to pursue that feedback loop rather than enjoyment of the game and have to tear myself away and shut myself off from the game because my mental illness is turning it into a chore. That isn't a problem for you so it isn't really a concern!
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;52878245]Elaborate.[/QUOTE] You got called out for saying lack of an 'endgame' (the impression I got from the rest of your post was that you meant something to grind for and earn as you level up) in a competitive shooter was a problem. Pretty sure LZTYBRN was saying that by your definition games like classic Quake or UT would suck, and you responded by diverging to a completely different point about micro-transactions.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;52878489]Almost every modern competitive shooter is bad. I think that's a fair statement.[/QUOTE] 100% subjective
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;52878554]Of course, some people have no issues with gambling addictions being pushed on children.[/QUOTE] Maybe that's where the parents need to step in.
[QUOTE=Cyan_Husky;52878929]Maybe that's where the parents need to step in.[/QUOTE] They won't, too many of them also expects tablets with apps that LOOK kid friendly or youtube channels that SEEMS to have kid friendly content to be modern daycare solutions.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;52878554]Of course, some people have no issues with gambling addictions being pushed on children.[/QUOTE] 100% irrelevant to the point being made.
So loot boxes contains items that cant be changed to real world money = OK? Pretty sure I'll sound like an asshole but what about every other games with loot boxes which has items with no real world value? Blizzard definitely falls into the problem and its just dickish to say that they dont belong in the part of it :frown:
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;52878489]I was staying ontopic regarding modern games with microtransactions, and I noted that competitive shooters have a tendancy to be the worst. Sorry, I don't see how I've deflected. Microtransactions are shit,I've been spieling the same thing all thread. And now endgames and content are focused around them. Quake has no microtransactions that determine all future expansions' focus. Almost every modern competitive shooter is bad. I think that's a fair statement.[/QUOTE] Because it has skins?
any system that lets you pay for something that you're not guaranteed to get ever is a bad system no matter how you sugar coat it. Overwatch should be derided for popularizing this garbage in video games yet people see it as an exception because its flavor of "pay for thing you are not guaranteed to get ever" is somehow more "acceptable" than the other versions of this insidious shit. [editline]11th November 2017[/editline] Like people are actively trying to justify a thing that you pay real money for that you are not even guaranteed. Its fucking DISGUSTING how they drop duplicates even when you pay for loot boxes.
[QUOTE=Banned?;52875306]This is something that chuffs my nuts pretty fuckin' badly and just shows the collective stupidity of the Overwatch playerbase. Dupes used to be common. So what? You get dupes, you get coins, you buy what you want. I have over half the items for almost every character in Overwatch, I'm practically just opening loot boxes for dupes now. Do you get dupes anymore? Not really. I [I]might[/I] get one dupe a box. Now it's impossible to just save coins for events because you don't get any anymore. The Overwatch base complained themselves into forcing them to buy more loot boxes for events because you can't just save up in the off-event season anymore. It's mind boggling that anyone [I]asked[/I] for this without realizing how badly it would screw themselves over.[/QUOTE] People are missing the point that dupes still gave jackshit coins and it wouldn't help the player to progress on the item collection. I prefer this new system because you have this sense of actually getting stuff, sadly they pretty much lied about getting the same value of coins, it is worse and they want to keep dupe value like shit. I want to get a gold that gives me 1k coins not half of a legendary skin and getting gold dupes suck. Tldr : Nobody wins, Blizzard's dupes abd coins drops are as still miserable aa ever and hurt the satisfaction of opening lootboxea
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