[QUOTE=Ashes;45109790]And it's garbage that pretty much rips off of Dishonored and fails pretty bad at it[/QUOTE]
Funny, to think that Dishonoured was inspired by Thief, and then Eidos Montreal forgot how to make a proper Thief game and probably just looked at Dishonoured, then thought "how can we make it more like Dishonoured, but not actually make anything interesting or put any fucking effort into it".
Millions of dollars down the drain, congrats Squenix.
[QUOTE=Doritos-pope;45104930]Think about it like this: The original thief trilogy is not only a buck or two cheaper in the trilogy bundle, but the playtime is probably about 40-60 hours if you played them all back to back. This DOESN'T include the thousands of fan made levels that have amassed within the past decade. The new thief will last about 8-10, less if you don't steal a goddamn thing.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.gog.com/promo/summer_thief_bundle_150614[/url]
$5.97 for the trilogy, go nuts.
[QUOTE=ironman17;45109869]Funny, to think that Dishonoured was inspired by Thief, and then Eidos Montreal forgot how to make a proper Thief game and probably just looked at Dishonoured, then thought "how can we make it more like Dishonoured, but not actually make anything interesting or put any fucking effort into it".
Millions of dollars down the drain, congrats Squenix.[/QUOTE]
They were probably looking at Dishonored because they didn't know how to update Thief for today's mainstream market. It's also likely why so many mechanics from DXHR were carried over and the game turned out to be "play it ~your~ way!" instead of a proper stealth game. That cluelessness was probably also a reason for the lack of direction behind the scenes that made so much press.
Making a good stealth game isn't exactly easy, especially if you want it to have mainstream appeal. For many people successful stealth means avoiding conflict, but dealing with conflict is the fun part of most games. It's why so many people found it so much more fun to let lose in Dishonored and pull out all the gadgets, but then they'd reload and metagame it because of the moral choice system.
Personally I blame devs putting so much emphasis on ghosting. Yes it's nice if you manage to clear the level perfectly, but giving a huge bonus for it makes everyone else feel like they failed. Imagine if shooters handed out huge boni for clearing a level without taking damage. Players would just constantly camp and throw nades over cover to play as safe as possible. Not fun at all.
In my opinion the most fun moments in stealth games are those where you just barely manage to stay one step ahead of alerted guards trying to find you. I distinctly remember a trip through the first Thief level where I was stuck in a room with a guard. It was dark and an obstruction in the middle of the room hid me from the guard rotating around it, but the tiled floor assured every step I chose to take I took with bated breath.
And then there's of course "stealth" games that just require you to memorize patrol patterns and systematically knock out one guard after another. IMO the most boring stealth games of them all and perhaps another attempt at making player engage in some sort of "conflict", tho OHKs don't exactly give the AI opportunity to fight back.
I think it takes really clever level design to make those cat and mouse games possible tho, and great AI to make them fun. It's no fun to get caught, immediately trigger the psychic network of guards throughout the castle, and then invoke mass amnesia once they've stopped looking for you. Tweaking numbers like making guards more quickly aggressive if they spot you again only does so much to that end.
[b]TL;DR[/b] Devs don't seem to know how to make stealth fun since it seems to ideally avoid interaction, so they went with the already tested mixed approach of DXHR/Dishonored.
The problem isn't that they reward ghosting, the problem is they design all the tools as though it was an action game and then punish you for using them. It is entirely possible to make a good stealth game based around ghosting, you just have to give the player appropriate tools.
Don't give players instant kill attacks, high powered weaponry, and offensive magic and then give them the bad ending for using them. That's dumb.
I know I say that every time but I can't understand people who feel "punished" by Dishonored's bad ending. If anything, going full chaos gives you a less anticlimactic last level, and more interesting character development.
Similarly, when [sp]I shot myself[/sp] at the end of Spec Ops: The Line I wasn't disappointed just because "oh no it's a bad ending and [sp]I died[/sp]!". There's nothing wrong with a tragic ending.
[QUOTE=Kljunas;45112518]I know I say that every time but I can't understand people who feel "punished" by Dishonored's bad ending. If anything, going full chaos gives you a less anticlimactic last level, and more interesting character development.[/QUOTE]
good ending best ending
also, i think that it would be nice if people made stealth games that made you feel weak, like you had to cower in the shadows. you can give them weapons, but make them hard to use (thief). it just seems that if you give them the opportunity to be violent instead of stealthy, people will play it that way most of the time and end up feeling disappointed (dishonored).
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;45111854]The problem isn't that they reward ghosting, the problem is they design all the tools as though it was an action game and then punish you for using them. It is entirely possible to make a good stealth game based around ghosting, you just have to give the player appropriate tools.
Don't give players instant kill attacks, high powered weaponry, and offensive magic and then give them the bad ending for using them. That's dumb.[/QUOTE]
This is why I think Splinter Cell Chaos Theory is one of the best stealth games. It felt really balanced, combat worked, but it was difficult, and ghosting was not a rank, it was just a stat but it felt incredibly good to ghost a level.
My friend got a choice of 3 free games with her AMD GPU and I convinced her to get this one (this was before it came out). I'm too afraid to talk to her and apologize for telling her to get this over Blood Dragon because Blood Dragon always goes on sale
Just go ahead and apologize, I guess.
Also, did she play the previous Thief games, or Dishonoured? If not, tell her the previous ones were definitely better, and recommend she try them out.
[QUOTE=Dr.C;45114083]My friend got a choice of 3 free games with her AMD GPU and I convinced her to get this one (this was before it came out). I'm too afraid to talk to her and apologize for telling her to get this over Blood Dragon because Blood Dragon always goes on sale[/QUOTE]
Buy her Blood Dragon to make up for it.
[QUOTE=Dr.C;45114083]My friend got a choice of 3 free games with her AMD GPU and I convinced her to get this one (this was before it came out). I'm too afraid to talk to her and apologize for telling her to get this over Blood Dragon because Blood Dragon always goes on sale[/QUOTE]
For value, I can see why you suggested that. Blood Dragon is amazing but does go on sale a lot. What was the other game?
[QUOTE=Brt5470;45114932]For value, I can see why you suggested that. Blood Dragon is amazing but does go on sale a lot. What was the other game?[/QUOTE]
There were like 5 or 7 games and she got a pick of 3 of them for free or with a heavy discountor maybe it was one for free and others with discounts. All I remember is that Blood Dragon and Hitman: Absolution were some of her options but I convinced her to go with the one that gives her the most value.
[QUOTE=ironman17;45107134]And if Lauryl was to be believed, it probably was, due to all the shit that happened there.
[/QUOTE]
Well don't tell them that, people might want to play it.
The thief series was fucking brilliant and deserves more recognition. It seems to get recognition as far as a successful stealth game but it doesn't get enough for its writing which is really excellent, especially considering when it came out.
I found it staggering how much I saw when the new one came out comments either like "I liked it but I never played the old ones" or "it's good if you don't compare it to the previous games".
Of course I'm gonna compare it. Why wouldn't I compare a game in the same fucking series?
[QUOTE=Bloodshot12;45127692]The thief series was fucking brilliant and deserves more recognition. It seems to get recognition as far as a successful stealth game but it doesn't get enough for its writing which is really excellent, especially considering when it came out.
I found it staggering how much I saw when the new one came out comments either like "I liked it but I never played the old ones" or "it's good if you don't compare it to the previous games".
Of course I'm gonna compare it. Why wouldn't I compare a game in the same fucking series?[/QUOTE]
Sadly Thief 1 was pretty niche at the time, even considering the fact its probably the most important and revolutonary stealth game ever made since it was the first 3D FP one iirc, and its still better designed in stealth than like 90% of games after it, Chaos theory is one of the few stealth games that came close, but CT is different in mechanics as well.
But yeah I wish Thief 1 got more notice for its incredible writing/cutscenes, a lot of people like to hold Deus Ex/HL1 as a standard for that type of shit, but id easily put Thief 1 above both, even with HL1 being far more favorited.
([B]SPOILERS[/B]) I mean look at this shit, this is one of the best cutscenes, its entire aesthetic is 10/10 and its truly one of the only times you see Garret truly scared for his life. Really powerful scene considering how old it is, I mean this was like the start of this type of shit in video games. Even the VA was amazing, which was extremely rare back then.
[video=youtube;-AAzkPkiImo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AAzkPkiImo[/video]
Thief 1 + 2 are incredible games. They both have their own respective flaws and the graphics haven't aged well, but everyone should play them just to see what it's like to play a game that doesn't treat them like a moron.
Thief 3 (Deadly Shadows) is ok for the most part, but the Xbox really held it back. It does have one of the most iconic horror levels ever.
Never played the new one. I guess it's like the Robocop reboot.
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